The 24 Elders

rockytopva · Apr 5, 2011

And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. - Rev 4:4

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. - Rev 5:5

So we have 24 elders who appear to have been saved in the church ages. Can we come up with 24 righteous names that may have been worthy to occupy this position?

In my view the 24 elders would be a gathering of 24 saints like the ones we see below. Note I have chosen these from previous posts.

1. John Bunyan
2. Valentinus
3. Klaust Nicholas
4. St. Ignatius of Antioch
5. St. Irenaeus of Lyons
6. St. Perpetua
7. Origen of Alexandria
8. St. Athanasius
9. St. Basel the Great
10. St. Ambrose
11. St. Augustine of Hippo
12. St. Isaac the Syrian
13. St. Francis of Assisi
14. Martin Luther
15. John Wesley
16. Aquinas
17. Donatus of Casae Nigra
18. Peter Valdo founder of the Waldensians
19. John Wycliffe he was known as the Morning Star of the Reformation
20. John Huss another Reformer based in what we know as the Czech Republic.
21. Martin Luther
22. John Chrysostom
23. Basil the Great
24. Billy Graham

Codger · Apr 6, 2011

rockytopva said:
And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. - Rev 4:4

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. - Rev 5:5

So we have 24 elders who appear to have been saved in the church ages. Can we come up with 24 righteous names that may have been worthy to occupy this position?

In my view the 24 elders would be a gathering of 24 saints like the ones we see below. Note I have chosen these from previous posts.

1. John Bunyan
2. Valentinus
3. Klaust Nicholas
4. St. Ignatius of Antioch
5. St. Irenaeus of Lyons
6. St. Perpetua
7. Origen of Alexandria
8. St. Athanasius
9. St. Basel the Great
10. St. Ambrose
11. St. Augustine of Hippo
12. St. Isaac the Syrian
13. St. Francis of Assisi
14. Martin Luther
15. John Wesley
16. Aquinas
17. Donatus of Casae Nigra
18. Peter Valdo founder of the Waldensians
19. John Wycliffe he was known as the Morning Star of the Reformation
20. John Huss another Reformer based in what we know as the Czech Republic.
21. Martin Luther
22. John Chrysostom
23. Basil the Great
24. Billy Graham

There are problems of logic and chronology in your post. First - the book of Revelation was written specifically to all of the Christians who lived under the Roman Empire. This began with those who first suffered martyrdom under Domitian beginning in 93AD. Babylon (Rome) fell in about 410AD: about 317 years. So Revelation covers 317 years of time.

We only understand Revelation by discovering what the book meant to them. These first Christians did not have your list in their day - these people were not born yet at that time.

Any Jew living in the first century could immediately tell you who these mysterious 24 elders were. The Temple was staffed by 24 turns (shifts) of priests who also numbered 24 priests in each turn. Each turn had a leader known as an elder. These priests served about two weeks a year in 8 day shifts which overlapped on the Sabbath. They were off most of the year.

The 24 elders are a reference to the leaders of the whole priesthood of God in Israel. Therefore in the New Testament they are also symbolic of all believers of all ages. This is the kingdom of Priests and Kings.

Larry

rockytopva · Apr 7, 2011

We all have different perspectives on Revelations in which I disagree with yours as much as you do mine.

jlmagee · Apr 18, 2011

rockytopva said:
We all have different perspectives on Revelations in which I disagree with yours as much as you do mine.

Your view is 21st century conjecture which seems to ignore/reject biblical hermeneutics, actual church history, and common sense.

rockytopva · Apr 18, 2011

Read the prophecy! The shoe fits!

So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot... How many spiritual refrigerators do we have today?

I will spue thee out of my mouth.... How many sickening things are going on today?

Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods... Of all the ages this one is the richest materially...

and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked... For all the materialism and education this is the most spiritually bankrupt of times!

I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich... How many young Christians faith is being tried? There are no external enemies to the church!

that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear... Of all the church ages this is the one most naked. People nowadays will go to church in their shorts!

As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten... Example, Jimmy Swaggert.

Codger · Apr 18, 2011

jlmagee said:
Your view is 21st century conjecture which seems to ignore/reject biblical hermeneutics, actual church history, and common sense.

Could not have said it better.

rockytopva · Apr 18, 2011

I have heard J Vernon McGee refer to the Laodicean church as the last church of its age and his reasoning is that the the word church ceases after Laodicea. So I am not alone in these conclusions.

rockytopva · Apr 18, 2011

I am beginning to remember my old rule "Never debate with those stuck in the Sardisean church age!"

jlmagee · Apr 18, 2011

rockytopva said:
I have heard J Vernon McGee refer to the Laodicean church as the last church of its age and his reasoning is that the the word church ceases after Laodicea. So I am not alone in these conclusions.

I have a great deal of respect for the late Dr. McGee. I have his commentaries and use them regularly. I have learned a great deal from him over the years. I am very thankful for the "Bible Bus".

All of this does not change the principles of biblical interpretation. You can not read into the scripture that which the author could not have possibly meant. I would suggest that you read either of DuVall and Hays books Journey into God's Word or Grasping God's Word or Fee and Stuart How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth.

If your definition of the "Sardisean Church age" is that of belivers who attempt to use proper techniques of exegesis rather than forcing an eisogesis that could not have possibly been intended in the scriptures, you would seem to be correct.

yedida · Apr 18, 2011

rockytopva said:
And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. - Rev 4:4

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. - Rev 5:5

So we have 24 elders who appear to have been saved in the church ages. Can we come up with 24 righteous names that may have been worthy to occupy this position?

In my view the 24 elders would be a gathering of 24 saints like the ones we see below. Note I have chosen these from previous posts.

1. John Bunyan
2. Valentinus
3. Klaust Nicholas
4. St. Ignatius of Antioch
5. St. Irenaeus of Lyons
6. St. Perpetua
7. Origen of Alexandria
8. St. Athanasius
9. St. Basel the Great
10. St. Ambrose
11. St. Augustine of Hippo
12. St. Isaac the Syrian
13. St. Francis of Assisi
14. Martin Luther
15. John Wesley
16. Aquinas
17. Donatus of Casae Nigra
18. Peter Valdo founder of the Waldensians
19. John Wycliffe he was known as the Morning Star of the Reformation
20. John Huss another Reformer based in what we know as the Czech Republic.
21. Martin Luther
22. John Chrysostom
23. Basil the Great
24. Billy Graham

You've listed Martin Luther twice. Were there 2 of 'em? The one I know of was shamefully anti-semitic. Jesus and John both agree that there is no room in the kingdom of God for people who hate.

rockytopva · Apr 18, 2011

Well! Bless me! ... I have!

1. John Bunyan
2. Valentinus
3. Klaust Nicholas
4. St. Ignatius of Antioch
5. St. Irenaeus of Lyons
6. St. Perpetua
7. Origen of Alexandria
8. St. Athanasius
9. St. Basel the Great
10. St. Ambrose
11. St. Augustine of Hippo
12. St. Isaac the Syrian
13. St. Francis of Assisi
14. Martin Luther
15. John Wesley
16. Aquinas
17. Donatus of Casae Nigra
18. Peter Valdo founder of the Waldensians
19. John Wycliffe he was known as the Morning Star of the Reformation
20. John Huss another Reformer based in what we know as the Czech Republic.
21. John Chrysostom
22. Basil the Great
23. Billy Graham
24.

Care to put in a #24 for me? The problem with the Sardisean church age (http://www.christianforums.com/t7547669/) is that they tended to be just as ruthless as those whom they rebelled from. If you can find good reason for any one of these guys to be off the list please let me know!

yedida · Apr 18, 2011

rockytopva said:
Well! Bless me! ... I have!

1. John Bunyan
2. Valentinus
3. Klaust Nicholas
4. St. Ignatius of Antioch
5. St. Irenaeus of Lyons
6. St. Perpetua
7. Origen of Alexandria
8. St. Athanasius
9. St. Basel the Great
10. St. Ambrose
11. St. Augustine of Hippo
12. St. Isaac the Syrian
13. St. Francis of Assisi
14. Martin Luther
15. John Wesley
16. Aquinas
17. Donatus of Casae Nigra
18. Peter Valdo – founder of the Waldensians
19. John Wycliffe – he was known as the Morning Star of the Reformation
20. John Huss – another Reformer based in what we know as the Czech Republic.
21. John Chrysostom
22. Basil the Great
23. Billy Graham
24.

Care to put in a #24 for me? The problem with the Sardisean church age (http://www.christianforums.com/t7547669/) is that they tended to be just as ruthless as those whom they rebelled from. If you can find good reason for any one of these guys to be off the list please let me know!

What would be so far fetched for John to have seen himself with his 11 brethren (since he was seeing into a future event) and I'm sure if you looked hard enough you could find 12 righteous men of the Older Testament who brought in the Messiah. John the Baptist would fit into the latter category since he passed before the resurrection and ascension.

rockytopva · Apr 18, 2011

There was a quote in The Lord of the Rings trilogy that went "All that glitters is not gold." It could be that these 24 were totally unknown in history. However, the scripture holds in high esteem those who soul win...

And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. - Daniel 12:3

jlmagee · Apr 18, 2011

yedida said:
What would be so far fetched for John to have seen himself with his 11 brethren (since he was seeing into a future event) and I'm sure if you looked hard enough you could find 12 righteous men of the Older Testament who brought in the Messiah. John the Baptist would fit into the latter category since he passed before the resurrection and ascension.

They do not fit into rockytopva's schema.

yedida · Apr 18, 2011

jlmagee said:
They do not fit into rockytopva's schema.

Gosh, I thought it was God's!!

Biblicist · Apr 19, 2011

Why should the Apostle Paul be omitted from your list especially as he is not one of the Twelve so he will miss out on a place as one of the 12 Pillars of the New Jerusalem.

It can be a bit unwise to compile such a list when we have absolutely no idea if the 24 Elders are angelic beings or men; if they are men then there would probably be several hundred good candidates for this role if not more.

Billy Graham...mmm!

Pilgrimer · May 23, 2011

My understanding is that of the 24 elders, 12 are the 12 Patriarchs of the Old Testament and the other 12 are the 12 Apostles of the New Testament, the latter of which is specifically stated by Jesus in Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30 where he tells the 12 Apostles that in the regeneration when he sits on his throne in glory that they will be seated on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel.

In addition, in the description of the New Jerusalem, it is said that the 12 Apostles are the 12 foundation walls of the city and that the 12 Patriarchs are the 12 gates into the city.

Certainly the 12 partriarchs of the Old Testament and the 12 Apostles of the New Testament hold a special place in God's Redemption Plan so I would suggest they are the 24 elders who even now are seated on thrones in heaven judging not only the 12 tribes of Israel but the whole congregation of God.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

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