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Teach me some philsosophy, please.

Eudaimonist

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Ok there are optical illusions I we all know that. But next time you cross a busy road I sincerely recommend you do not say to yourself "that means my visual perceptions are all unreliable". In the evolution of ideas, that ones a dodo.

Absolutely. Optical illusions are interesting, but we can learn to recognize them, and they are little threat to objectivity. The brain does some even more amazing massaging of visual data, such as "predicting" where moving objects will be a fraction of a second into the future, in order to allow us to compensate for visual processing time and react better to moving objects.

But, all in all, we have a reasonably accurate perception of the world around us. Yes, we must interpret the world, but we are capable of generating successful epistemological procedures for doing so, such as one finds in science.


Yes, pragmatism is popular, especially in America, but flawed. This is an excellent example of a flaw.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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quatona

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Yes, we must interpret the world, but we are capable of generating successful epistemological procedures for doing so, such as one finds in science.
This is undisputed. "Successful, helpful, useful" - these are the criteria of epistemology I have been proposing to replace "true, objective" with.
 
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quatona

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Have you noticed, though, that your above busy road argument is entirely pragmatic ('doing this won´t work')? You expected it to be convincing with no explanation whatsoever.
IOW why would germ theory work if it were not true (factual) that there are germs?
Well, philosophy is not natural science, but since you brought it up:
What is the process by which science arrives at theories? Science checks out whether hypotheses work. If a hypothesis works it becomes a theory.
Hypotheses and theories are rejected or overthrown if they don´t work. That´s the criteria and method all natural science works from: We call it "true/fact" if it works. So your question has it backwards.
 
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quatona

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It seems to me that these examples of illusions and momentary flaws of our perception/processing are somewhat misleading.
The point (my point, at least) is a different one: it´s about systemic obstacles that don´t allow for a congruence between our ideas and objectivity.

Allow me to attempt an analogy (please keep in mind that 1. it is only an analogy, and 2. it´s not yet an argument - it´s just meant to illustrate what I´m trying to say. Once this is understood, you are welcome to criticize and tackle it, to say "but that´s not the way it is" or "but the analogy is flawed" etc. But first I would like to make sure I am understood. )

Imagine a device (let´s say a camera, a computer, a printer) both of which are capable only of perceiving and processing in terms of black and white pixels.
This device perceives, develops and expresses its view of a, say oil on canvas painting, in that it photographs, processes and prints a picture of this painting.
(I am/ we are speaking - hypothetically - objectively: we "are" the oil painting as it is, in its three dimensionality, its analogous wealth of colours etc.)
Now, what the heck is "true/objective" about a two dimensional assembly of black and white pixels trying to represent the painting?
It´s missing out on the vast majority of characteristics?

Is that a problem for the device? No. It has captured everything that it can see/process/produce. Possibly, it will be able to "correct illusions" (in that e.g. it decides that a certain black pixel should be replaced by a white one, it may recognize that the camera or the printer do not work as expected etc.), but these will always be corrections that remain within the digital/two dimensional/black and white system of perception/processing/expressing.

Will this system ever be able to see/understand/express the difference between the objective painting and its own product? Of course not. From within the system the result is perfect and factually correct.
Again: is that a problem for the system? No, not at all, and it won´t and can´t ever turn out to be. It serves its own capabilities and needs perfectly. It works, for all fathomable intents and purposes of the system.
Whether the result is successful, useful, working will always be determined by the system, and within and by its paradigms, needs and capabilities.

Is the result objective? Come on!
Does it work? Yes.
Is there a way for the system to understand the difference? No.

(Needless to say that in this analogy the oil painting represents "what is", the camera represents our senses, the computer represents our brain, and the printer represents our communication tools.)
 
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GrowingSmaller

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Ok so perception is like a photograph, and a photograph can be a representation ofan objective domain.
(I am/ we are speaking - hypothetically - objectively: we "are" the oil painting as it is, in its three dimensionality, its analogous wealth of colours etc.)
OOps last comment perhaps belongs here.

Now, what the heck is "true/objective" about a two dimensional assembly of black and white pixels trying to represent the painting?
It´s missing out on the vast majority of characteristics?
If truth is orrespondence then there only needs to be some correspondence for there to be truth (i.e. 0<C)

But in the case of visual perception, the qualia of perception (things we see) cause or influence our actions. So if they are inaccurate our actions will go astray. We do not always stray, and we can rely on perceptions, and we can know this by the fact that it tends to have more survival value to walk with the eyes open.

Will this system ever be able to see/understand/express the difference between the objective painting and its own product? Of course not. From within the system the result is perfect and factually correct.
My theory of perception it that there is a symmetry obetween percept and object. We act in relation to the percept and that causes us to be able to act in a "measured way" towards the oblect.


No because the system is put to the test by the organism acting in an objective environment. The environment is not merely internal, and that objective reality is the reason we need an inner map or photograph in the first plece.

Is the result objective? Come on!
Does it work? Yes.
Is there a way for the system to understand the difference? No.
It works because it is accurate, in the sense that an innacurate map does not enable "working" or successful navigation and a accurate one (with a certain symmetry) does.

(Needless to say that in this analogy the oil painting represents "what is", the camera represents our senses, the computer represents our brain, and the printer represents our communication tools.)
Hope these commentsare welcome.
 
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GrowingSmaller

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Other attempts have been made, but for all intents and purposes Nietzsche is correct. Serious members of society have turned away from religion on all the important answerable questions, preferring more practical answers.
I know that Neitszche admired scientists for their ethic of honesty, but that he also presented himself as an immoralist. One of his main teachings was that of the "will to power" or development of a sense of life force and control. Also he was against "nihilistic" faith that demoted the existential (this life made nothing) in opposition to another higher world (heaven, god, the supernatural etc). However you know as well as I do that it is not a necessary truth that religion bleeds away the life force or that it must cause resentement or that it must deny or subtract from life. A personal observation is that many people who want to live life to the full try and take a quick path of sex and drugs and rock and roll (and psycho/cheamotherapy if you know the Ian Dury tune) and that is probably more decadent (see Neitszche's attack on Wagner for his decadent drinking) than is being a Christian t-total ninja. On muslim TV a Shi'a practitioner said "God has given us a sports car (the body), do we look after it or return it in a battered condition?" I am not saying that all Neitzscheans are tottering rock and rollers, but just that a lot of contemporary "existentialism" (if it can be called that and be regarded as part of his legacy) is of the mob/herd and not necessarily superior simply because it is non-theistic or self-authored.
 
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variant

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I am saying that philosophy is bound by physical reality not that it is bound by the rules of science.

Ideas that conflict with the physical realities of the universe are wrong no matter how consistent they are with one another.
 
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variant

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This type of post is why I find you a bit tiresome GS, in a couple of posts you shifted the conversation away from speaking about religious epistemology which is essentially dead, and what I thought Nietzche was right about.

You can't really have a serious conversation with someone when they are constantly changeing the subject matter in order to disprove a point you weren&#8217;t really making in the first place.
 
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GrowingSmaller

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Variant if you recall the OP I said I was tired of debating religious epistemology as it is done to death on forums like this. I want to learn something new, ETA but I know of neitzche. I know that he was not much of a systemiser, so who were the epistemologists of his day. I know of Locke and Hume who may have had an influence on the rejection of theism (via empiricism and skepticism), but I don't know of many others.
 
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GrowingSmaller

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Hey variant thatks gfor joining in btw. What do you think of the evolutionry argument (if evolution is your field) for mental causation in the miond-body thread (see this post)? Is that a routine argument in evolutionary psychology or is my opinion unusual?
 
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variant

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I feel like I have discussed this with you before, but I can’t find it so I’ve given up.

I think that consciousness is the byproduct of living systems, and that abstraction starts with the physical interactions of DNA and DNA processing systems.

I don't think the material that conscious systems are made out of is particularly important such that I think there could be digital based conscouisness (AI).

But, as I already stated in that thread, I don't think there is a mind-body problem.
 
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variant

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I wasn't debating really.

Yes, the empiricists and skeptics are the death of religious influence, but the actual ones doing the empirical skeptical work though, the darwins and the lineases and the freuds of the day, the philsophers are a little weaker than their counterparts. Nietzche was just remarking that they had already won in his day.

No one has been a great "systematizer" for a while now. The overarching systematic philosophers died a long time ago.

For epistemology I would start with Hegel not the empiricists (empiricists are right but boring).


You might enjoy:
11. Hegel—The Last Great System - YouTube
 
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Eudaimonist

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No one has been a great "systematizer" for a while now. The overarching systematic philosophers died a long time ago.

Only out of the "famous" philosophers. Ayn Rand was definitely a systematizer.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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