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steen said:Can you point me towards them? I would be very inetrested in finding out what they have to say. As I said, in the last 20 years, I must have failed to come across them.
steen said:Can you point me towards them? I would be very inetrested in finding out what they have to say. As I said, in the last 20 years, I must have failed to come across them.
steen said:Well, I was hoping for a current YEC?
Congratulation both, with the liberation of your minds
How is it that you refuse to see that those accepting YEC could not have done the same? I used to be an unbeliever, and as such, I believed evolution. I was fascinated by the "science" involved. But when I became a believer, I had to begin questioning what I'd been taught. There is too much circular reasoning, too much "assumed" to be true when the reality is the assumptions don't hold up to emperical reasoning. I respect your viewpoint, but I don't accept the viewpoint. I do not see any way evolution can be true in light of critical examination, much less in light of Scripture. Sorry if that makes me "ignorant" in your eyes, but as it happens, I hold three degrees and I still don't see any alternative to YEC.steen said:YEC are not ishowing nterested in exploration or searching for facts, common ground or anything like that. They have 2 interests ony. To "win," and to show strong faith. Righteousness and fear, that's all that drives them. So tell me how a exploratory poll will make a dent in that?
I don't. I just don't really see anybody like that.IisJustMe said:How is it that you refuse to see that those accepting YEC could not have done the same?
right there I am getting suspicious, because there is nothing that eliminates a believer accepting Evolution. The very premise is blatantly false in my view. It is when I see stuff like that, that I get suspicious that the YEC is bearing false witness. So please reassure me about what you actually mean here.I used to be an unbeliever, and as such, I believed evolution.
EVERYBODY should question what they are taught. Always. If you accept the Scientific theory of Evolution with no foundation of knowledge, then you haven't done your homework. Science is about the evidence, not belief.I was fascinated by the "science" involved. But when I became a believer, I had to begin questioning what I'd been taught.
What do you mean? Sorry, but now I am getting even MORE suspicious and apprehensive, as this is the stuff I usually see from YEC who want to make claims about science or about a conversion to YEC without actually having a clue what Evolution is. I am not positive about being hoodwinked, so please explain a bit more about what you mean. Sorry to seem so suspicious, but I have been in this situation uncountable times, and the result is nearly always the same.There is too much circular reasoning, too much "assumed" to be true when the reality is the assumptions don't hold up to emperical reasoning.
That's fine. I don't insist that you do.I respect your viewpoint, but I don't accept the viewpoint.
Again fine. I have no problem with people having their faith.I do not see any way evolution can be true in light of critical examination, much less in light of Scripture.
It doesn't.Sorry if that makes me "ignorant" in your eyes,
And you have that right. You seem to miss the point, though. It is not the faith of YEC that is a problem to us. It is YEC then proceeding to make false claims about science, accusing everybody else of not being the right kind of Christian etc. THAT'S the problem. If YEC NEVER made a claim about science, then there wouldn't be an issue. If YEC stated that "My faith is that the Earth is 6000 years old and that God created it is 6 days, then that would be fine. It is when the "and the evidence is.." gets tacked on to it that the problems begins. Or when YEC decide that "XYZ is wrong because the science is wrong," especially when it then is clarified that they don't even know the science.but as it happens, I hold three degrees and I still don't see any alternative to YEC.
Unless, of course, you find it impossible to reconcile the Genesis account with the alleged science that attempts to support evolution.steen said:right there I am getting suspicious, because there is nothing that eliminates a believer accepting Evolution.
Let me get this straight: When I say I'm a believer, you don't understand what that means? Hmmmmsteen said:The very premise is blatantly false in my view. It is when I see stuff like that, that I get suspicious that the YEC is bearing false witness. So please reassure me about what you actually mean here.
That could be because you haven't investigated the biblical account of creation with an open heart, an open mind, and above all else, an open spirit. I'm not going to write a college term paper here, but let's just start with the contention of the geologists that the fossils date the sedimentary layers, but the anthropologists claim the sedimentary layers date the fossils. That's circular reasoning. There are countless other examples, but the tone of your post indicates you refuse to examine the evidence honestly, or you would have questions yourself.steen said:What do you mean? Sorry, but now I am getting even MORE suspicious and apprehensive, as this is the stuff I usually see from YEC who want to make claims about science or about a conversion to YEC without actually having a clue what Evolution is. I am not positive about being hoodwinked, so please explain a bit more about what you mean. Sorry to seem so suspicious, but I have been in this situation uncountable times, and the result is nearly always the same.
When you see me make that kind of claim against you, feel free to call me on it. Don't assume, because I'm YEC, that I am not capable of emperical thought. Yes, I questioned your study of the biblical account above, but that doesn't mean I'm questioning your Christian faith. It means I'm questioning your scientific approach. That's how I came to the conclusion that the biblical account, the YEC theory, is the most likely correct one. I'd just urge you to look at both sides of the issue. Your posts thus far indicate to me that you have rejected YEC without really examining it.steen said:And you have that right. You seem to miss the point, though. It is not the faith of YEC that is a problem to us. It is YEC then proceeding to make false claims about science, accusing everybody else of not being the right kind of Christian etc.
IisJustMe said:I used to be an unbeliever, and as such, I believed evolution.
But when I became a believer, I had to begin questioning what I'd been taught.
There is too much circular reasoning, too much "assumed" to be true when the reality is the assumptions don't hold up to emperical reasoning. I respect your viewpoint, but I don't accept the viewpoint. I do not see any way evolution can be true in light of critical examination, much less in light of Scripture.
Sorry if that makes me "ignorant" in your eyes, but as it happens, I hold three degrees and I still don't see any alternative to YEC.[/FONT][/COLOR]
Fortunately, I don't have that problem, so your argument is irrelevant.IisJustMe said:Unless, of course, you find it impossible to reconcile the Genesis account with the alleged science that attempts to support evolution.
When you say that you were a "believer" in Evolution, in SCIENCE, then yes it is suspect. VERY suspect. And you by now indeed have shown your true colors, such as quoting Hovind. Your claim seems on the surface blatantly false. You seem to outright misrepresenting yourself, and thus as dishonest. Did you remember what I said about YEC and dishonesty, and how it is so disgusting? Well, you just confirmed my impression.Let me get this straight: When I say I'm a believer, you don't understand what that means? Hmmmm
Sure I have. The problem is not with scripture. The problem lie with YEC making false claims about science in various ways. Like above, when you tried to misrepresent yourself as previously having been accepting Evolution.... Ah, forgive me. When you BELIEVED in Evolution. YEC just is no good at faking scientific background or knowledge. you would have MUCH more credibility if you merely admitted that your belief in creation is based on faith. nobody would disagree with that or fight you over it.That could be because you haven't investigated the biblical account of creation with an open heart, an open mind, and above all else, an open spirit.
Nope, because there are much more than just ONE dating method performed on each fossil. That you are unaware of the rigorous process involved is merely evidence of your lack of knowledge in this are. Did you see the link I provided from professor Wiend?I'm not going to write a college term paper here, but let's just start with the contention of the geologists that the fossils date the sedimentary layers, but the anthropologists claim the sedimentary layers date the fossils. That's circular reasoning.
Ah, and for good measure, an ad hominem. No surprise there.There are countless other examples, but the tone of your post indicates you refuse to examine the evidence honestly, or you would have questions yourself.
I have several times already. And you were rather unappreciative. Further evidence for my observation.hen you see me make that kind of claim against you, feel free to call me on it.
I don't. I, however, observe this per the way you answer your posts with vague and erroneous claims and refuse actual evidence and established science. this has nothing to do with you being YEC. It has to do with the level of your intellectual honesty.Don't assume, because I'm YEC, that I am not capable of emperical thought.
Really? My scientific approach is insufficient if I don;'t study unsubstantiated sources with no evidence in them? You REALLY don't know what science is, do you?Yes, I questioned your study of the biblical account above, but that doesn't mean I'm questioning your Christian faith. It means I'm questioning your scientific approach.
Well, of course you did. I don't think anybody here doubts that.That's how I came to the conclusion that the biblical account, the YEC theory, is the most likely correct one.
I have. And found YEC having NO supportive evidence and mainly is 'defended" through misrepresentations of science and evolution and frequently through outright lies. I did that decades ago, and have followed the debate close since, seeing absolutely nothing new from YEC since then. Come up with your evidence that YEC always claim they have but never have been able to produce, and I will gladly take a look at it.I'd just urge you to look at both sides of the issue.
No, I rejected YEC because I DID look closely at it and found it based almost entirely on lies about evolution and a tremendous ignorance about Evolution and even of the most basic science and scientific principles.Your posts thus far indicate to me that you have rejected YEC without really examining it.
First of all thanks for not seeing this as some sort of attack. Secondly, the lip service I'm referring to applies equally to all, no one has a corner on this market. Thirdly, I definitely agree with your assessment here, it is extremely difficult to get to know someone within such a limited contact experience. I'm a very intense probing person who, in a personal environment, can get to know someone intimately in a very short time. Not to boast, but if I knew you in person I would "know" you quite well and whatever questions I may have today, well they would have been sufficiently answered long ago. Yet the skills I have to make those assessments in person are practically inept within a forum environment such as this because of very reasons you mentioned. Yet, that doesn't mean that one can hide everything. It isn't difficult to ascertain who here has a hard time loving their neighbor and if a basic tenet of the faith such as that isn't being met, well it makes it quite easy to assess their walk.Willtor said:I don't think it's necessarily lip service. And herein lies the limitation of an internet forum. I'd love to hang out with any of you. But the fact is, we're nowhere close to each other. Most of what you know about me is filtered through the medium of this forum. If I'm particularly clever, you won't see any part of me that I don't want to show you, and you may even see things that aren't so that I do want to show you. I might be an elaborate parody, and write theological essays as cover. Now, I'm not saying that I do any of this (though, as to covering things, I will say that the medium gives me opportunity to process what I say before I say it), but it is the inherent epistemological limit of an internet forum. I think if you knew me in real life, you wouldn't be concerned as to whether I was dedicated to Christ. You would probably come to some perspective on the matter, and you might be right or you might be mistaken, but this notion of quoting percentages to determine whether I am doing lip service to these statements would be out of the question.
On the surface this sounds rather simple and easy to do. Of course I should give people the benefit of the doubt and accept what they tell me at face value, especially from a brother. For the most part that is exactly what I do, at least from those who display a courteous and forgiving manner.Willtor said:The question is not whether we are doing lip service, but whether we can afford to give each other the benefit of the doubt. As limiting as this medium may be, we could simply choose to take each other at face value and treat each other as brothers who happen to disagree on hermeneutics. Not that this disagreement is a matter to be taken lightly, but that we can accept that we are all sincere (and some of us are sincerely mistaken). In the context of debating the issues, some people act inappropriately, but they don't teach rhetoric in school, like they did in the middle ages, and it's a weakness we'll overcome.
steen said:Can you point me towards them? I would be very inetrested in finding out what they have to say. As I said, in the last 20 years, I must have failed to come across them.
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