Taking Questions on Genesis

AV1611VET · Sep 11, 2023

partinobodycular said:
But all that this says to me is that Genesis is wrong.

Depends on whose side you're on, doesn't it?

partinobodycular said:
Which of course leads to another question... why would so many people believe something which logic and reason says isn't true?

Because our logic and reasoning were corrupted by the Fall.

partinobodycular said:
My personal favorite explanation... it says that they're NPC's.

I like the term COIN, myself.

Christian In Name Only

(And for the record, just because a person refuses to believe something which logic and reason say isn't true, doesn't make them a COIN.)

I believe a lot of things that logic and reason say isn't true.

Logic and reason can fool us.

partinobodycular · Sep 11, 2023

AV1611VET said:
I believe a lot of things that logic and reason say isn't true.

I've noticed. I've also noticed that you're not alone. An observation that really doesn't work in your favor. Fortunately I've learned to tolerate the madness. To paraphrase G. Gordon Liddy "The trick is not to mind it". So I say good on you, believe whatever you want to believe, all that I'm really hoping for is that you'll kindly permit me to do the same.

AV1611VET · Sep 12, 2023

partinobodycular said:
I've noticed. I've also noticed that you're not alone. An observation that really doesn't work in your favor. Fortunately I've learned to tolerate the madness. To paraphrase G. Gordon Liddy "The trick is not to mind it". So I say good on you, believe whatever you want to believe, all that I'm really hoping for is that you'll kindly permit me to do the same.

You are more than welcome to tolerate our madness.

BeyondET · Sep 13, 2023

partinobodycular said:
Fair enough. But I'm going to make an assumption here, that assumption is, that God created things with an "Embedded Age" that they really could've possessed. In other words, although created old those trees could've grown from seeds if God had so desired. There's nothing unnatural or impossible about trees growing from seeds.

But this leads us to another conclusion... if God created the universe with the appearance that it could've begun 13.7 billion years ago... it's because it really could've begun 13.7 billion years ago. God could've started it from a proverbial seed if He had so desired, just like with the trees.

And if God created life with the appearance that it could've begun 3.7 billion years ago... it's because it really could've begun 3.7 billion years ago. Evolution could've happened, even if it didn't happen, and it didn't happen simply because God chose not to begin from seeds.

So the implication is that even if God created the universe 6000 years ago, the Big Bang theory, and the Theory of Evolution may both be correct in that they both describe what could've happened, and the only reason that they didn't happen is that God chose not to begin from seeds.

So there's nothing in Genesis that refutes the Big Bang Theory or the Theory of Evolution. Science isn't misinterpreting the evidence, because the evidence says that both life and the universe evolved. The only thing that science is missing is that God chose to begin with "Embedded Age" instead of from seeds.

But I'm still stuck with the question of why. If God could've grown the entire universe from a seed... why didn't He? Was He impatient?

I mean if I were creating a computer simulated universe I could understand skipping the first 13.7 billion years, but God's not a computer programmer, what reason did He have for skipping the first 13.7 billion years?

If you lived an infinite amount of time would you create a computer simulator and skip 13.7 billion years of the build. In a state of immortalness creating anything fast wouldn't be logical and would be joyful creating every single atom one at a time.

partinobodycular · Sep 13, 2023

BeyondET said:
If you lived an infinite amount of time would you create a computer simulator and skip 13.7 billion years of the build. In a state of immortalness creating anything fast wouldn't be logical and would be joyful creating every single atom one at a time.

I agree, there's beauty and grandeur in every stage of creation. Why on earth would God skip some of it. As if it was insignificant. It's not just the artist's finished work that inspires us, it's every brush stroke and emotion that goes into creating it.

BeyondET · Sep 13, 2023

partinobodycular said:
I agree, there's beauty and grandeur in every stage of creation. Why on earth would God skip some of it. As if it was insignificant. It's not just the artist's finished work that inspires us, it's every brush stroke and emotion that goes into creating it.

Just like choosing the right paint is significant.

Psalm 147:4
He determines the number of the stars; He calls them each by name.

AV1611VET · Dec 19, 2023

BeyondET said:
If you lived an infinite amount of time would you create a computer simulator and skip 13.7 billion years of the build. In a state of immortalness creating anything fast wouldn't be logical and would be joyful creating every single atom one at a time.

partinobodycular said:
I agree, there's beauty and grandeur in every stage of creation. Why on earth would God skip some of it. As if it was insignificant. It's not just the artist's finished work that inspires us, it's every brush stroke and emotion that goes into creating it.

The journey is better than the destination?

driewerf · Dec 19, 2023

AV1611VET said:
Okay, in this thread, I'll take any questions you may have about the events in Genesis, and try to answer them to the best of my ability.

Is there any empirical evidence that any of these events happened? If someone had never heard of the bible, what feature of the Earth would convince this person of any of the events mentioned above?

dlamberth · Dec 19, 2023

AV1611VET said:
The journey is better than the destination?

For this soul, absolutely!!!

Godsunworthyservant · Dec 19, 2023

AV1611VET said:
Okay, in this thread, I'll take any questions you may have about the events in Genesis, and try to answer them to the best of my ability.

This thread is open to all sorts of stuff, from creatio ex nihilo to the Fall, the Flood, the Dispensations, the Ark, kinds, what language Adam & Eve spoke, anything.

Pray for me.

I am going to take it from some of the replies here that you hold a somewhat fundamentalist view of the Genesis creation story. If so, do you then believe that man was never a hunter gatherer but rather had, from the very beginning, the God given knowledge of agriculture and horticulture?

AV1611VET · Dec 19, 2023

driewerf said:
Is there any empirical evidence that any of these events happened?

In my opinion: no.

That's why the Creation Week had nothing to do with science.

The Creation Week was a series of one miracle after another that raised the level of mass/energy from zero to what it is today.

A series of events that would have been in clear violation of the First Law of Thermodynamics, had the First Law of Thermodynamics had existed then.

driewerf said:
If someone had never heard of the bible, what feature of the Earth would convince this person of any of the events mentioned above?

None.

But let me point out that God has given us a "sixth sense" that creates in us an instinctive "pull" towards His existence (see Psalm 19).

We instinctively realize that there's more to the physical universe than meets the eye, so to speak.

Godsunworthyservant · Dec 19, 2023

AV1611VET said:
Had it been completed, probably some 8000 feet!

The Book of Jubilees, part of the Old Testament Apocrypha, describes the tower as having a rectangular base 7,800 feet by 18,000 feet, and a height of 8,150 feet!

(See The Book of Jubilees, chapter 10, vs 19-27, R.H. Charles translation.)

For comparison, the Great Pyramid at Giza is 756x756. In other words, the Great Pyramid was 571,536 sq. ft at it's base while by these figures the Tower of Babel was 140,400,000. This means that the base of the Tower of Babel would have been on the order of 240 times as big as that of the Great Pyramid and would have covered around 3000 acres.

AV1611VET · Dec 19, 2023

Godsunworthyservant said:
I am going to take it from some of the replies here that you hold a somewhat fundamentalist view of the Genesis creation story.

Correct.

Godsunworthyservant said:
If so, do you then believe that man was never a hunter gatherer but rather had, from the very beginning, the God given knowledge of agriculture and horticulture?

Yes.

Genesis 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

Hunting and gathering came later.

Nimrod being a prime example.

Genesis 10:9 He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD.

AV1611VET · Dec 19, 2023

Godsunworthyservant said:
For comparison, the Great Pyramid at Giza is 756x756. In other words, the Great Pyramid was 571,536 sq. ft at it's base while by these figures the Tower of Babel was 140,400,000. This means that the base of the Tower of Babel would have been on the order of 240 times as big as that of the Great Pyramid and would have covered around 3000 acres.

Wow! That's interesting!

Godsunworthyservant · Dec 19, 2023

salt-n-light said:
Any theories on what Ham did to Noah in Genesis 9 that caused Noah to curse Canaan? It only stops at that Ham seen his nakedness and that Noah saw what he had done, but never clear on what he did.

Godsunworthyservant · Dec 19, 2023

Another question, do you believe that the universe was created in 7 literal days? And how old do you believe that the earth is? In a related issue, what do you believe about the carbon dating of the fossil record that seems to indicate a much longer time frame? Is it so unreliable as to be off by millions of years?

partinobodycular · Dec 19, 2023

AV1611VET said:
The journey is better than the destination?

Absolutely. The significance of any accomplishment is measured by the scope of the struggle that it took to achieve it. It's in the effort to climb the mountain that its summit acquires its nobility.

You would have us rob humanity of the memory of millions of years of trials and struggles that our forebears endured to bring us here, and instead replace it with a self-deprecating story of how we threw paradise away for the sake of our own pride. And then, as if stealing our past wasn't enough you seek to steal our future as well, by claiming that we must be saved from our evil ways lest we end in damnation. Well if hell is our fate then so be it, but I will not give up on a struggle that millions before me have died to maintain. For where they have aspired to go, I shall gladly follow. I don't need the path to be easy, nor the reward to be gifted. I, and those before me shall achieve our paradise because we've earned it.

Does this mean that I'm denying God His due? No, it means that I'm thanking God for allowing humanity to earn ours. Neither do I deny your book... just the manner in which you've chosen to interpret it.

AV1611VET · Dec 19, 2023

Godsunworthy Servant said:
Any theories on what Ham did to Noah in Genesis 9 that caused Noah to curse Canaan? It only stops at that Ham seen his nakedness and that Noah saw what he had done, but never clear on what he did.

Yes.

Ham probably performed an incestuous act with his mother.

Note how it's worded.

Genesis 9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.

From the book of Leviticus, we learn that that means he did something to his mother.

Leviticus 18:8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.

As far as why he cursed Canaan, and not Ham himself, is found in the first verse.

Genesis 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

Noah couldn't curse Ham, as God had already blessed him.

AV1611VET · Dec 19, 2023

Godsunworthyservant said:
Another question, do you believe that the universe was created in 7 literal days?

Six.

Godsunworthyservant said:
And how old do you believe that the earth is?

As old as God willed it to be.

But old.

For the sake of discussion, let's say the earth is 4.543 billion years old.

Peter says God created it old.

2 Peter 3:5a For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old,

God created it in six days, with age embedded into it.

Godsunworthyservant said:
In a related issue, what do you believe about the carbon dating of the fossil record that seems to indicate a much longer time frame?

I'll go with carbon dating's CONCLUSION, but that's all.

In other words, if carbon dating says the earth is 4.543 billion years old, then I won't contest it.

But what I won't accept is the teaching that the earth grew old over time.

It came into existence old; but it didn't GROW old.

AV1611VET · Dec 19, 2023

partinobodycular said:
Absolutely. The significance of any accomplishment is measured by the scope of the struggle that it took to achieve it. It's in the effort to climb the mountain that its summit acquires its nobility.

I just pray that, when your journey is over, there will be found a set of your footprints, leading up to the Cross.

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