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This doesn't really address what I said, does it?The 'can' depends on first meeting a condition. Jesus put it in perspective. 'According to your faith be it done unto you' There are degrees of faith. One person might have little faith and feel they need to just eat herbs rather than meat for example. Having a promise about what we could be and will be one day is inspiring. It is not some natural only test though. Nothing remotely similar.
And again you repeat the false claim that science deals only with the natural.Try to understand that science only sees and deals with the natural. They could see the physical event that was caused by God, but would not see His hand behind it. They might see a man that was healed of cancer, but would not give God the glory for the healing. They would dig in their little bag of natural only possible causes, and grab something there.
So when Jesus said, "if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you," he didn't actually mean it literally?But isn't that Kylie's point?
She's [incorrectly] saying that Jesus told us how to test our faith:
Simply employ mind over matter, and God will respond accordingly.
In such a case, it was incorrect of Jesus to say, "If you do this, then the result is guaranteed to be that."I know this is self-evident, but I do want to point to Luke 22:42: "Not my will, but yours be done" and Matthew 6:10: "Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." Moreover, Job 42:2: "I know that you can do all things; no purpose of yours can be thwarted." The idea that "mind over matter" guarantees a divine response conflates faith with magical thinking, which is explicitly condemned in Scripture (Deuteronomy 18:10-12).
The belief that God must act based on our thoughts or desires is presumptuous and forgets the difference between Creator and creature. This is pride, and "Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall" (Proverbs 16:18).
I get what you're saying, and I generally agree with you. But in this case, I am talking specifically about the claim, "If you pray for the mountain to move, then it WILL move."I don't. I haven't commented on this because it's really just a thought exercise with no implications for actual day to day science.
But since we're effectively talking about scientifically testing God, the answer is no, it can't be done. That's because God, by definition, can do absolutely anything imaginable, including rerouting time and creating false realities.
So when someone notices God says his followers can move mountains, it isn't an empirical test of God to see if any mountains have been moved. It could be that we don't know God's standards for a follower, it could be that some followers did move mountains but God supernaturally hid it all, it could be that God changed His mind, and so on.
No matter what outcome we get, the answer can always, always be "God just made it look that way" and there's no empirical means to determine if that's true or not.
I would suggest that the mountain not acting in the way that it was claimed the mountain would act is evidence that the hypothesis was wrong.Well, if there are no suddenly moved mountains then there is no testable evidence.
Why don't you pray for the mountain to be moved, and we'll see for ourselves?
In this particular case.So science cannot test the supernatural.
That's up to you.You want me to ask God to turn stones into bread, while I'm at it?
Yes it does. Having faith does not mean mountain moving faithThis doesn't really address what I said, does it?
Obviously it doesAnd again you repeat the false claim that science deals only with the natural.
Pretend all you likeIt's getting to the point where you've been told it's wrong so often that it can't be passed off as anything but deliberate.
I don't see why not, if the claim about the supernatural gives some testable prediction.
View attachment 359644
Observation: People pray.
Question: Why do people pray?
Hypothesis: People pray because they believe it will aid them, such as in recovery from illness, guidance in difficult times, etc.
Prediction: Prayer will allow people to move mountains, as claimed by Jesus in Matthew 17:20.
Experiment: Get people to pray for a mountain to move, and see if it happens.
Now we just have to wait for the results!
Irrelevant.And you studied Research Methods and the Nature of Science at which university?
The passage is very clear. It associates the required amount of faith with a mustard seed, which the Bible refers to as the smallest of all seeds.Yes it does. Having faith does not mean mountain moving faith
I have demonstrated repeatedly why this is wrong.Obviously it does
All you have is the same tired claims you repeat again and again, despite being shown they are wrong.Pretend all you like
Deuteronomy 6:16: "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God, as thou temptedst him in the place of temptation."Why aren't you willing to put your faith to the test by pray that the mountain be moved?
Christ’ statement in Matthew 17:20 is not a promise that any specific prayer will yield the exact outcome desired; rather, it is an illustration of the power of faith in God to accomplish His will. You also forget 1 John 5:14: "If we ask anything according to His will, He hears us." Finally, faith is not a contractual guarantee for miracles, miracles occur according to God’s wisdom and purpose, not merely human desires: "Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see" (Hebrews 11:1).I get what you're saying, and I generally agree with you. But in this case, I am talking specifically about the claim, "If you pray for the mountain to move, then it WILL move."
That claim is indeed testable.
Pray for the mountain to move, and then see if it moved.
Hardly. It's very relevant.Irrelevant.
There is a supernatural claim and I have demonstrated how it can be investigated by applying the scientific method.
Your ad hominem attacks are irrelevant. ("You can't believe Kylie, she hasn't had a formal education in a scientific field!")
So Jesus meant that we can pray for a mountain to be moved, and it will happen, unless it's done to tempt God, which is every time, so it will never happen.Deuteronomy 6:16: "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God, as thou temptedst him in the place of temptation."
So Jesus meant that we can pray for the mountain to move, and it will move, as long as it's God's will that the mountain moves, and it never is.Christ’ statement in Matthew 17:20 is not a promise that any specific prayer will yield the exact outcome desired; rather, it is an illustration of the power of faith in God to accomplish His will. You also forget 1 John 5:14: "If we ask anything according to His will, He hears us." Finally, faith is not a contractual guarantee for miracles, miracles occur according to God’s wisdom and purpose, not merely human desires: "Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see" (Hebrews 11:1).
I have shown exactly how the claim is testable using the scientific method.Hardly. It's very relevant.
I'm sorry, but it doesn't sound like you're qualified as either a scientist or as a philosopher to make the call as to when an ad hominem has been committed and when it has not. Moreover, you don't show any evidence that you can cite support for your "scientific assertion."
If you can't support your own statement, you need to shut up.
I have shown exactly how the claim is testable using the scientific method.
Your attempts to cast doubt on my credibility based on your perceived opinion about my scientific understanding are very revealing of what kind of person you are.
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