Take the Islam IQ Test

Outspoken · Dec 4, 2002

"but Christianity's origins are Judaism, which was fairly brutal as of that writing.
"

NO, they aren't. christianity, for whom it was named, started with Christ.

Again seebs, you show me more and more how worldly you are

seebs · Dec 4, 2002

Huh; your Bible must not have the cool illustrations mine does (KJV) showing how Christ links the Old Testament to the New Testament - or showing how the Old Covenant lead to the New Covenant.

Christianity has its origins in the understanding that the one true God has standards for us which we cannot attain without His help; this understanding is Judaism. Without Judaism, there is no Christianity. Christ was a Jew, you will recall.

Outspoken · Dec 4, 2002

"showing how Christ links the Old Testament to the New Testament - or showing how the Old Covenant lead to the New Covenant."

Yup, I agree, but the start of christianity was in Christ That's the difference Seebs. I know Christ was a jew, but again that doesn't matter here. The start of christanity started with the man himself, Christ

seebs · Dec 4, 2002

That's the point at which it *became* Christianity, yes - but the "origins" generally go back before that. For instance, in this test, we see questions about what Mecca was like *before* Muhammed had his visions. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander; if we are to look at things *BEFORE* the nominal start of the religion, on the grounds that the origins and background are important, then we should do it both times.

Outspoken · Dec 4, 2002

Nope, seebs the start of christanity is with Christ, for he is its supreme example and whom it was named for. Sorry, as per usual, I'm sure you won't admit you're wrong just becuase you like to argue for no reason, so I'll let you have your last word

cenimo · Dec 4, 2002

Ah, Chistianity- salvation through Jesus-
Islam makes no provision for Allah having a son.

Try this- the Gabriel Mohammed encountered was Lucifer, thus the entire religion is counterfeit. Mohammed was so shaken up by it he wasn't sure about going out and sharing his visions, his wife encouraged him to.

seebs · Dec 4, 2002

Well, the nice thing is, if you're quite sure the start of Christianity is Christ, then I can safely assume you won't quote Jewish writings in other debates, right, because those aren't part of Christianity, which *started* with Christ.

Good thing to know. I'll be sure to let the people in the Science, Creation, & Evolution forum know that, in fact, Genesis is a Jewish text, not a Christian one, because nothing before Christ is part of Christianity. Thanks.

seebs · Dec 4, 2002

Cenimo: I didn't say they were in no way different, I'm just pointing out that, if we are to try to derive beliefs about Islam from the history of the region and people before the religion came into being, we should probably do that for Christianity too, just to be fair.

Starscream · Dec 5, 2002

Originally posted by Outspoken
Sorry, as per usual, I'm sure you won't admit you're wrong just becuase you like to argue for no reason, so I'll let you have your last word

You've been posting here for quite some time now, have you ever been wrong?  Have you ever admitted to being wrong on these forums as either Outspoken or LouisBooth?

It just seems to me that your accusations of seebs here is, well, ironic (and rude - even with the smiley face).

Brimshack · Dec 5, 2002

Cenimo:

"Ah, Chistianity- salvation through Jesus-
Islam makes no provision for Allah having a son."

That's right, Islam is a Monotheistic religion.

Sauron · Dec 5, 2002

Originally posted by Outspoken

"Another way in which Islam is like Christianity. "

LOL, not at all sauron.

Wrong, Outspoken. 

Christianity spread both by conquest as well as preaching.  Conquests of Europe, as well as Latin America, were done in the name of christianity and wound up converting the natives.

"He is also associated with Jack Chick publications. "

We weren't talking about his crediablity, just that if a relgions orgins matter at all.

You cannot separate the two.  If the question is a religion's origin, then the credibility of Morey is highly relevant.

Muhammad killed people, Christ died for people and forgave them. Whats your verdict?

Moses and Joshua killed people as well.  As did Elijah, David, and other biblical figures. 

In addition, the doctrine of killing in self-defense is supposedly a christian doctrine.  (If it isn't, then a lot of fundamentalists need to start speaking out against the war on terrorism and the Iraq war).

My verdict?  That christianity is not morally superior to islam on that point.

Sauron · Dec 5, 2002

Originally posted by seebs
That's the point at which it *became* Christianity, yes - but the "origins" generally go back before that. For instance, in this test, we see questions about what Mecca was like *before* Muhammed had his visions. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander; if we are to look at things *BEFORE* the nominal start of the religion, on the grounds that the origins and background are important, then we should do it both times.

That is dangerous to fundamentalism, however.  Because that would show what archaelogy has discovered: 

in pre-biblical times, Yahweh was a tribal god that had a goddess (Asherah);
many of the stories of the bible are derived from the stories of other Mesopotamian cultures;
there is no evidence to support many key events of the OT, and substantial contradictory evidence;
etc.

Sauce for the goose indeed.

Sauron · Dec 5, 2002

Originally posted by cenimo
Ah, Chistianity- salvation through Jesus-
Islam makes no provision for Allah having a son.

So? 

That's only a problem if you think that something is missing here.  But in Islam, there is no need for Allah to have a son.

So the fact that Islam doesnt' have a provision for a son of Allah is not a drawback at all.  In fact, it is actually a strength of Islam, since it prevents the sin of shirk - polytheism.

Try this- the Gabriel Mohammed encountered was Lucifer, thus the entire religion is counterfeit. Mohammed was so shaken up by it he wasn't sure about going out and sharing his visions, his wife encouraged him to.

Click to expand...

Try this:  the original message from Allah that should have been the NT was corrupted by Satan.  So Allah had to send Muhammad to restore the original meaning and text, via the Koran.

It works both ways.

Sauron · Dec 5, 2002

Originally posted by Starscream
Have you ever admitted to being wrong on these forums as either Outspoken or LouisBooth?

Indeed.  I think it's obvious what is going on here.  Outspoken isn't fooling anyone.

 

cenimo · Dec 5, 2002

Sauron

You can either believe that Jesus is the only way to salvation or that Islam is a valid religion, you can't believe both.

If you choose Islam, you deny Christ... so I pass on Islam

Sauron · Dec 5, 2002

Originally posted by cenimo
Sauron

You can either believe that Jesus is the only way to salvation or that Islam is a valid religion, you can't believe both.

If you choose Islam, you deny Christ... so I pass on Islam

Huh? 

This has nothing to do with what I believe. I'm not trying to convert anyone here.  I am not a Muslim. 

It has to do with accurately and honestly representing the beliefs and history of Islam. 

I am trying to correct factual and historical errors that many Americans, primarily fundamentalists, seem to believe. 

seebs · Dec 5, 2002

I'm coming at this from a belief that Christianity is the closest model for the truth available, and that Islam is probably incorrect on several key claims about the nature of God... but I found the "IQ test" offensively dishonest in making attacks against the history and origins of Islam that are, frankly, pretty similar to attacks we sometimes fend off when they're directed at Christianity.

I believe that truth does not stand on lies, and if I can't convince people of my beliefs without lying to them, I am better off not convincing them than making that particular deal with the devil. (Only sort of metaphorical, in this context!)

Homie · Dec 5, 2002

Yes, the wars of Israel (in the OT) were territorial wars. But only to retrieve (get back) the land of Israel. After they achieved that, the wars stopped, there was no expansion beyond the one goal of the land of Israel. This is different from Islam.

Also, christianity was spread ONLY by missionary work, and is supported in the Bible to ONLY be spread by missionary work. Islam was spread by the sword and is supported in the Quran to be spread by the sword.

You say christianity was also spread by the sword, what are you talking about?

seebs · Dec 5, 2002

Read some history; Christianity has done its share of conquest.

As to "getting back" the land of Israel, that's not always how it's portrayed.

Outspoken · Dec 5, 2002

"Christianity spread both by conquest as well as preaching. Conquests of Europe, as well as Latin America, were done in the name of christianity and wound up converting the natives."

Not at all. Those were political wars having nothing to do with christianity at all. The wars by Islam on the other hand were carried on by muhammad, are you saying he was wrong to do this?

"You cannot separate the two."

Saruon, yes you can seperate them. Its like me saying all of your family must be very mean spirited people who like to argue. One bad apple doesn't make the barrel bad.

"Moses and Joshua killed people as well. As did Elijah, David, and other biblical figures. "

I'm glad you like talking about judism. when you're ready to talk about christianity let me know okay? Until then rant and rave all you want.

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