Take the Islam IQ Test

David Gould · Dec 3, 2002

Originally posted by Outspoken
"I am drawing my own conclusions from the information provided, however."
ahh, okay. So you think that also? Do the startings of Islam have to be taken into account?

I would say yes.

Outspoken · Dec 3, 2002

"I would say yes."

so do you know how Islam began?

David Gould · Dec 3, 2002

Originally posted by Outspoken
"I would say yes."

so do you know how Islam began?

I know a little bit about it but not too much. I know that it is claimed by Moslems that Allah, through the Angel Gabriel, gave Mohammed the Koran. As to how it really began, I don't know.

Outspoken · Dec 3, 2002

"As to how it really began, I don't know."

"In spite of the Qur'anic statement against forcing religion on others, Muslim leaders have sometimes threatened to kill unbelievers if they did not accept Islam.Although Islam spread to some parts of the world like Indonesia mainly by means of "beautiful preaching," much of its expansion elsewhere was due to offensive war, first by Muhammad to unify Arabia, then by his followers in conquering Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Persia, parts of India, North Africa, Spain, Turkey and the Balkans."

"Rudolph Peters, Jihad in Classical and Modern Islam (Markus Wiener, 1996).
"

commentary By Dr. David L. Perry

shout2thelord · Dec 3, 2002

I grew up around muslims so i think i knew more about islam than christianity at a young age. so it has interested me so ive looked into it quite a bit so ive heard most of these claims before.

David Gould · Dec 3, 2002

Originally posted by Outspoken
"As to how it really began, I don't know."

"In spite of the Qur'anic statement against forcing religion on others, Muslim leaders have sometimes threatened to kill unbelievers if they did not accept Islam.Although Islam spread to some parts of the world like Indonesia mainly by means of "beautiful preaching," much of its expansion elsewhere was due to offensive war, first by Muhammad to unify Arabia, then by his followers in conquering Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Persia, parts of India, North Africa, Spain, Turkey and the Balkans."

"Rudolph Peters, Jihad in Classical and Modern Islam (Markus Wiener, 1996).
"

commentary By Dr. David L. Perry

Ah, I know a little about those wars - they are commented on in A History of Warfare by John Keegan in the chapter on faith as a significant weapon of war.

The origins of Islam were violent, yes.

 

David Gould · Dec 3, 2002

Okay, now we have concluded that the origins of Islam were violent, let us compare that with Judaism/Christianity.

Moses, God's chosen writer for the Pentuarch, led his people on aggressive wars of conquest (according to the Old Testament, at any rate).

The similarities are striking, don't you think?

Oh, yes - Jews and Christians say that Moses was fighting in God's name against evil. I am sure Moslems make the same claim for Mohammed.

Once again the similarities in origins of these religions is clear. So neither one can use origins as an argument against the other.

From the outside, of course, an atheist can easily see that religions that claim to be about peace (which both Christianity and Islam do ) but which were started in a burst of violence are inherently contradictory.

By the way, this is not a claim that the Christianity or Islam of today is not about peace. It is simply an observation that the Christianity and Islam of today are not the Christianity and Islam as they were at their beginnings.

Stormy · Dec 3, 2002

I took the test and I am a "genius". LOL

It did not take long to notice a pattern... that all the answers were true.

As if I really found the "truth"

seebs · Dec 3, 2002

I read the quiz... and yes, many of the questions, which I see as intended to "discredit" Islam, would also be true of Christianity if one adapted them; e.g. "To understand the Bible, you must know what things were assumed by the people who originally committed it to paper", or "various Christian holy places were previously believed holy by pagans" or "some Christian rituals are similar in some ways to some pagan rituals". I don't see it as changing anything much.

Outspoken · Dec 4, 2002

"The similarities are striking, don't you think?"

I'm not a jew david, and christianity is named for Christ. Lets look at his life shall we? He never sinned, was killed for a crime he didn't commit and forgave his killers. The early church was hunted and killed..hmm not similar to Islam at all. Now if you'd like to discuss christiantiy instead of building strawmen, let me know

David Gould · Dec 4, 2002

Originally posted by Outspoken
"The similarities are striking, don't you think?"

I'm not a jew david, and christianity is named for Christ. Lets look at his life shall we? He never sinned, was killed for a crime he didn't commit and forgave his killers. The early church was hunted and killed..hmm not similar to Islam at all. Now if you'd like to discuss christiantiy instead of building strawmen, let me know

So Moses is not a significant figure in Christianity? He didn't directly serve and speak to and be ordered by the same God - Jesus - that Christians today do?

It is interesting that you disown the Old Testament as the foundation for your religion.

shout2thelord · Dec 4, 2002

I wouldnt deny the OT as the foundation of where christianity came from.

The difference i see between christianty and islam is that God allows the killing in the OT because all those who were guilty deserved to die. Then God sent Jesus to die for us all hence no one should be killed anymore.

Though in islam it was for teritorial gain there religion is teritorial and therefore there is nothing to stop them from doing it today.

Most of the peaceful muslims i know have never read the quran and dont go to a mosque. they simply dress the way they are supposed and fast at the right time and so on.

David Gould · Dec 4, 2002

Originally posted by shout2thelord
I wouldnt deny the OT as the foundation of where christianity came from.

The difference i see between christianty and islam is that God allows the killing in the OT because all those who were guilty deserved to die. Then God sent Jesus to die for us all hence no one should be killed anymore.

Though in islam it was for teritorial gain there religion is teritorial and therefore there is nothing to stop them from doing it today.

Most of the peaceful muslims i know have never read the quran and dont go to a mosque. they simply dress the way they are supposed and fast at the right time and so on.

According to Moses, the prophet chosen by God, the wars fought in the name of Judaism against the unbelievers at that time were just.

According to Mohammed, the prophet chosen by God, the wars fought in the name of Islam against the unbeliever at that time were just.

Sorry - I can't seem to see the difference.

 

And the wars fought by Moses were territorial - they were fought at least partly so that the Jews could take Israel from the people who lived there.

Most of the peaceful Moslems I know do go to mosques and do read the koran. They seem no different in that respect to Christians.

seebs · Dec 4, 2002

Wait, if Islam is bad because they fought for territorial gain, how am I to interpret the OT's advice to go drive people out of better lands?

Sauron · Dec 4, 2002

Originally posted by cenimo
How much do you know about Islam? Take a test:

http://www.faithdefenders.com/iq_test.html

 

(mods...was not sure where to put this, fel free to move if you deem necessary)

Wow.  Faith Defenders got a lot of them wrong. 

And, as we have all seen with opinion polls, a lot depends upon how the question is phrased, and what the available options for answers are.  In this case, Faith Defenders steered the reader towards the biased conclusions that theywanted them to arrive at.

Wish I could say that I was shocked.

Sauron · Dec 4, 2002

Originally posted by Outspoken
"As to how it really began, I don't know."

"In spite of the Qur'anic statement against forcing religion on others, Muslim leaders have sometimes threatened to kill unbelievers if they did not accept Islam.Although Islam spread to some parts of the world like Indonesia mainly by means of "beautiful preaching," much of its expansion elsewhere was due to offensive war, first by Muhammad to unify Arabia, then by his followers in conquering Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Persia, parts of India, North Africa, Spain, Turkey and the Balkans."

"Rudolph Peters, Jihad in Classical and Modern Islam (Markus Wiener, 1996).
"

commentary By Dr. David L. Perry

Another way in which Islam is like Christianity. 

Sauron · Dec 4, 2002

Originally posted by seebs
I read the quiz... and yes, many of the questions, which I see as intended to "discredit" Islam, would also be true of Christianity if one adapted them; e.g. "To understand the Bible, you must know what things were assumed by the people who originally committed it to paper", or "various Christian holy places were previously believed holy by pagans" or "some Christian rituals are similar in some ways to some pagan rituals". I don't see it as changing anything much.

The most important thing to note about this "test" is that Dr. Robert Morey is the author of it.

For those of you who don't know, Morey has no formal training in Islam.  He is, in fact, a christian apologetic.  He is also associated with Jack Chick publications.  Jack Chick, in case you don't know, has claimed that the Roman Catholic church invented Islam:

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0062/0062_01.asp

Here is a christian website that has decided that "enough is enough" and they have to speak up to refute such an obvious piece of nonsense:

http://www.balaams-***.com/alhaj/append-2.htm

 Morey is also one of the most widely-refuted individuals on the subject of Islam, precisely because his research is so abysmally poor.  His "moon god" theory is an example.  That same christian website takes Morey to task for bogus claims and shoddy research:

http://www.balaams-***.com/alhaj/append-5.htm

More problems with Morey's "research":

http://islamicity.com/Mosque/moongodmyth/moon_god1-19.htm

So David Gould:  I suggest another topic for discussion on this thread:  why is it that fundamentalist christians never seem to bother to check the credentials of the sources that they rely upon?  And what does that fact mean to the strength of those arguments and/or beliefs? 

David Gould · Dec 4, 2002

Originally posted by Sauron
The most important thing to note about this "test" is that Dr. Robert Morey is the author of it.

For those of you who don't know, Morey has no formal training in Islam.  He is, in fact, a christian apologetic.  He is also associated with Jack Chick publications.  Jack Chick, in case you don't know, has claimed that the Roman Catholic church invented Islam:

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0062/0062_01.asp

Here is a christian website that has decided that "enough is enough" and they have to speak up to refute such an obvious piece of nonsense:

http://www.balaams-***.com/alhaj/append-2.htm

 Morey is also one of the most widely-refuted individuals on the subject of Islam, precisely because his research is so abysmally poor.  His "moon god" theory is an example.  That same christian website takes Morey to task for bogus claims and shoddy research:

http://www.balaams-***.com/alhaj/append-5.htm

More problems with Morey's "research":

http://islamicity.com/Mosque/moongodmyth/moon_god1-19.htm

So David Gould:  I suggest another topic for discussion on this thread:  why is it that fundamentalist christians never seem to bother to check the credentials of the sources that they rely upon?  And what does that fact mean to the strength of those arguments and/or beliefs? 

Excellent, Sauron - simply excellent!

But you have rather ruined my points - I was hoping to use evidence against Islam as evidence against Christianity. Ah, well. You place a bit of trust in someone and see where you end up.

But your new topic is certainly worthy of discussion. I suspect, thought, that the answers will be paltry from the fundamentalists.

Outspoken · Dec 4, 2002

"So Moses is not a significant figure in Christianity? He didn't directly serve and speak to and be ordered by the same God - Jesus - that Christians today do?
"

If his actions are not put into perspective a wrongful conclusion can be reached, that is why the NT exsists. That's the problem you "atheists" have. You read half a book and then say, OH, I KNOW THE ENDING!! In reality you need to read the whole book David

"Another way in which Islam is like Christianity. "

LOL, not at all sauron.

"He is also associated with Jack Chick publications. "

We weren't talking about his crediablity, just that if a relgions orgins matter at all. Muhammad killed people, Christ died for people and forgave them. Whats your verdict?

"I was hoping to use evidence against Islam as evidence against Christianity."

Which can't be done David since Islam is NOTHING like christianity at all. Something "atheists" do all the time without realizing how silly they are looking

seebs · Dec 4, 2002

I would say that the origins do matter - but Christianity's origins are Judaism, which was fairly brutal as of that writing.

I have to say, speaking as a Christian who thinks Islam is incorrect, they *do* have a lot of similarities; I see these, not as an indictment of Christianity, but as a sign of how universal God's message is.

But they *are* awfully similar in origins, and Christianity has certainly been used as an excuse for a great deal of conquest, and millions have been "converted at swordpoint". I suppose it'll help if we apologize.

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