Suspending Judgment

Casstranquility · Mar 1, 2006

What exactly does it mean to suspend judgment? It means to observe without mental comment.

Let us begin with a mountain.

Two people look at a mountain. One looks at it and says "That is a tall mountain." The other looks at it and says, "No, that is a small mountain."

In truth that mountain is just a mountain. It is not tall, or short, apart from our judgments about it.

The point of suspending judgment is to see everything exactly as it is without any perceptions. Thus we see things clearly. We see a mountain as a mountain. A tree as a tree. A glass of water as a glass of water. Wind as wind. A flower as a flower.

What do you all think about this?

-Cassie

DailyBlessings · Mar 1, 2006

I doubt it is possible to simply view things as they are "without any perceptions". We are all limited by our experience and physical capability. Without it, you would not be able to see a "mountain", you would see only a jumble of colors arranged in a certain way. And if you are red-green colorblind like me, you won't even see the same colors as the person next to you.

MoonlessNight · Mar 2, 2006

Our descriptions are relative but how an object is is absolute.

Im_A · Mar 2, 2006

i don't think it is possible, or at least, highly complicated if not impossible to do.

most reasons to judge, or think about things, come from personal perception that have either one been passed down, or people work it out for themselves.

to truly suspend judgement, i imagine that would be nihilism. cause every idea we hold to, every judgement we have on this and that, that we hold to, we hold as virtous. it's why we get hurt when people judge us, or condemn us.

so to suspend that, well, that seems rather nihilistic to me. it means you have to lose all the care for your own views and beliefs, and the reason why you don't suspend your judgement.

Casstranquility · Mar 2, 2006

tattedsaint said:
i don't think it is possible, or at least, highly complicated if not impossible to do.

It's not that hard...unless you want to suspend all judgments for your entire life, that I think would be very complicated! I have managed to suspend my judgment of things, a little at a time is all it takes to see things differently and know that even when you have perceptions, if they are negative, you can change them because they are yours. They are not reality.

so to suspend that, well, that seems rather nihilistic to me. it means you have to lose all the care for your own views and beliefs, and the reason why you don't suspend your judgement.

No, you wouldn't have to lose all of your own views and beliefs. Those are there for a reason, too. You would need only set them aside for a moment while you look at the world without judgment, then pick them up again when you have decided what is most beneficial to your state of mind.

Casstranquility · Mar 2, 2006

DailyBlessings said:
I doubt it is possible to simply view things as they are "without any perceptions".

It is definitely possible. I have done it myself, though not for long periods of time, just short glimpes into perceptionless reality.

We are all limited by our experience and physical capability.

True...but then again, we may not be limited at all. We may be without limits and just perceive ourselves to have limits.

Without it, you would not be able to see a "mountain", you would see only a jumble of colors arranged in a certain way.

Actually, you may be right about not being able to see what one could call a mountain. The moment you say "That is a mountain." You have placed a label upon it and left perceptionless seeing...I think. But, still, it is in fact a plate of the earth sliding over another plate-thus we call it a mountain-thus the label mountain is based on fact.

And if you are red-green colorblind like me, you won't even see the same colors as the person next to you.

Well, that's one reason why we wouldn't say, "Hey, that mountain is red, green, blue, purple" Those being relative it seems.

Im_A · Mar 2, 2006

Casstranquility said:
It's not that hard...unless you want to suspend all judgments for your entire life, that I think would be very complicated! I have managed to suspend my judgment of things, a little at a time is all it takes to see things differently and know that even when you have perceptions, if they are negative, you can change them because they are yours. They are not reality.

i thought you meant suspending judgement your entire life, to actually let that idea change your whole life, not just moment by moment. anyone can look at ONE particular issue, or whatever with suspended judgement, but whether every issue like that, i highly doubt it.

No, you wouldn't have to lose all of your own views and beliefs. Those are there for a reason, too. You would need only set them aside for a moment while you look at the world without judgment, then pick them up again when you have decided what is most beneficial to your state of mind.

so basically you would have to suspend judgement, and then not suspend judgement eh?

Cleany · Mar 3, 2006

we need comparative perceptions, otherwise how would we know what evil was.

DailyBlessings · Mar 3, 2006

Casstranquility said:
It is definitely possible. I have done it myself, though not for long periods of time, just short glimpes into perceptionless reality.

I've come close, but only in the framework of meditation.

True...but then again, we may not be limited at all. We may be without limits and just perceive ourselves to have limits.

We may be wrong about what our limits are, but the fact remains that our physical self is nothing but a bag of bones and organs- that is always going to be a limit as long as we are attached to this organic frame.

Actually, you may be right about not being able to see what one could call a mountain. The moment you say "That is a mountain." You have placed a label upon it and left perceptionless seeing...I think. But, still, it is in fact a plate of the earth sliding over another plate-thus we call it a mountain-thus the label mountain is based on fact.

Plates sliding over each other? Can you actually perceive that or is it something you "know" from your exposure to culture?

Well, that's one reason why we wouldn't say, "Hey, that mountain is red, green, blue, purple" Those being relative it seems.

Then what is there left to perceive?

Casstranquility · Mar 3, 2006

tattedsaint said:
i thought you meant suspending judgement your entire life, to actually let that idea change your whole life, not just moment by moment.

No, cause I don't even know how to do that! It's just a helpful way to learn how to stop perceiving things as good/bad, hot/cold, up/down beautiful/ugly...with suspending judgment, we see what IS. Doesn't God say "I AM"? That is God without any perceptions about Him. He is.

so basically you would have to suspend judgement, and then not suspend judgement eh?

Yep!

Casstranquility · Mar 3, 2006

Cleany said:
we need comparative perceptions, otherwise how would we know what evil was.

When one is suspending judgment, one sees that there is no evil. Evil is a term of separation...when one doesn't judge, all is one, all just is. If you find a need to perceive evil, then don't suspend your judgment. I see that there is no evil, yet I perceive evil in the world.

Casstranquility · Mar 3, 2006

DailyBlessings said:
I've come close, but only in the framework of meditation.

I think suspending judgment is a form of meditation.

We may be wrong about what our limits are, but the fact remains that our physical self is nothing but a bag of bones and organs- that is always going to be a limit as long as we are attached to this organic frame.

Is it really just a bag of bones? I think it's capable of things one wouldn't expect a bag of bones to be capable of. I say our bodies are really energy manifesting as bodies.

Plates sliding over each other? Can you actually perceive that or is it something you "know" from your exposure to culture?

You are right, I can't just see two plates sliding over each other. I was taught that's how mountains were formed. When I look at a mountian without judgment, I see. I guess that's all I do.

Then what is there left to perceive?

One isn't supposed to be perceiving when seeing the world just as it is! One is just supposed to see. And when you come back from seeing, you perceive that there is truly nothing outside of your own judgments about the world.

Cleany · Mar 3, 2006

Casstranquility said:
When one is suspending judgment, one sees that there is no evil. Evil is a term of separation...when one doesn't judge, all is one, all just is. If you find a need to perceive evil, then don't suspend your judgment. I see that there is no evil, yet I perceive evil in the world.

it sort of sounds like you are saying that if you dont think then nothing exists?

Casstranquility · Mar 3, 2006

Cleany said:
it sort of sounds like you are saying that if you dont think then nothing exists?

I suppose it's kind of a conundrum-if you don't think, you don't receive any input on what is out there. It just is. It's still there, but it's nothing. Yet, nothing is a perception, too. So, it's beyond nothing/everything terms.

Cleany · Mar 3, 2006

Casstranquility said:
I suppose it's kind of a conundrum-if you don't think, you don't receive any input on what is out there. It just is. It's still there, but it's nothing. Yet, nothing is a perception, too. So, it's beyond nothing/everything terms.

that doesnt make sense, surely in terms of what you were saying, nothing is a lack of perception?

my brain hurts!

Casstranquility · Mar 3, 2006

Cleany said:
that doesnt make sense, surely in terms of what you were saying, nothing is a lack of perception?

my brain hurts!

Let's see...When I suspend judgment, I see whatever is there, but without any judgments about it, what is it? These "things" I see have no definition-I cannot describe them, cause the moment I do that, I'm perceiving again. Hmm...no judgment, no descriptions, no definitions, nothing to say that object is separate from this object...No-thing doesn't really work though, since there is some-thing there, I just can't say what it is. My brain hurts too! Im confused...I think I'll think about this some more...maybe it's beyond words. I don't know yet.

Im_A · Mar 3, 2006

Casstranquility said:
No, cause I don't even know how to do that! It's just a helpful way to learn how to stop perceiving things as good/bad, hot/cold, up/down beautiful/ugly...with suspending judgment, we see what IS. Doesn't God say "I AM"? That is God without any perceptions about Him. He is.

Yep!

but there is a perception of God that we see in the scriptures, or outside of Christian scriptures, a non-suspened view of God that He is good and holy.

everything is created with non-suspended judgement. the color of hair has a judgement, it's a certain color. the list goes on.

Casstranquility · Mar 4, 2006

tattedsaint said:
but there is a perception of God that we see in the scriptures, or outside of Christian scriptures, a non-suspened view of God that He is good and holy.

Yes, there is.

everything is created with non-suspended judgement. the color of hair has a judgement, it's a certain color. the list goes on.

The world in separation is created in our minds through judgment, yes. That's why we have judgment, so we can view the world in all it's diversity. Without judgment, we must suspend all of our thoughts about things, throw out our conditioning, give everything a fresh start. "Look, none of this has any meaning until I give it meaning-so why don't I give it a meaning I can live with?" Such as, if we look at a spider, and we say "Eew, spiders are ugly!" But, then we suspend judgment and see that spiders are not ugly. This gives us a choice, do we still wish to see the spider as ugly? If we do, that is not wrong. If we do not, that is not right. It makes no difference unless it makes a difference to us.

quatona · Mar 10, 2006

To the OP:

I think a distinction between "value judgement" and "perception" might be useful.
Not making a value judgement about it doesn´t mean bypassing my perception and seeing a mountain as it is (there is no mountain as it is). "Mountain" is already a product of my perception and interpretation. This idea already "violates" the immediacy of what merely is. It is me who creates the mountain.
It is hard to dispute that our ability and habit of creating things (and particularly the amazing fact that our perceptions and interpretations lead many of us to similar results) is useful and probably even necessary. Then, it isn´t even THAT amazing that our interpretations come to similar results, since the way we create our realities entirely depends on our desires and needs. We interprete "what is" in the way that is most useful for us, the way we need it. Communalities of realities merely point to similar desires and needs of their holders, and since we are all humans, communalities are not really surprising.

Whilst value judgements are a very specific subset of our perception:
Unlike with mountains etc. they are not creating (or arranging) that which we apparently can´t help perceiving as physical (in lack of a better word) reality; value judgements are entirely abstract - they are another level of creation.
I re-create even my physical reality permanently: If useful, I create trees, whilst different needs might make me create a wood.
I am inclined to think that our ability to adjust/rearrange/modify/control our creative processes is far greater on this level than on the "physical" one. I am even inclined to think that it is the very level that gives us power. The fact that unlike the vast communalities in our creations on the physical level we often do not agree or even explicitly disagree in our value-creations seems to confirm this assumption.

I take great benefit from my ability to consciously control my value-judgements (and other abstract concepts, btw.) and make them match my needs and desires.

I am not sure that getting rid of value judgements altogether is what I strive for. It is, however, my experience so far, that negative value judgements (and in particular negative value judgements concerning fellow beings) don´t help me creating the reality I need and desire.

On another note I have come to realize that value judgements are telling me more about the person holding it than about the subject.

quatona · Mar 10, 2006

Cleany said:
it sort of sounds like you are saying that if you dont think then nothing exists?

Can´t speak for Casstranquility, but my experience doesn´t seem to give me any reason to assume that things still exist if I don´t think.

Suspending Judgment

Potato, pineapple, pickle.

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&amp;amp;quot;I desire mercy, not sacrifice&amp;am

O Christianos Cryptos; Amor Vincit Omnia!

Potato, pineapple, pickle.

Potato, pineapple, pickle.

Potato, pineapple, pickle.

&amp;amp;quot;I desire mercy, not sacrifice&amp;am

Potato, pineapple, pickle.

&amp;amp;quot;I desire mercy, not sacrifice&amp;am

Potato, pineapple, pickle.

Legend

Potato, pineapple, pickle.

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