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Supralapsarianism...the unassailable logic

moonbeam

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Note to the reader - I am coming in cold an will open up the discussion of the top of my head for further refinement.

In response to the first dilemma... the following.

The infralapsarian position affirms (in contradistinction to supra-) that the mass of humanity fallen... is "the same lump"

From that fallen mass, they accept, that a decree of reprobation is lawful... but not before.

Therefore the scope of reprobation (in my opinion) begins with Cain and continues.

Hell... is the point of the final consumption of Gods judgement upon sin and sinners regards both human and angelic individuals.

There is no indication that the phrase "Hell was created for the devil and his angels?" - is not inclusive of human beings.
The scripture tells us that human personalities (agents) are aligned with the devil in a relationship which propagates and accentuates the lusts of the devil.
Therefore they are "angels"- messengers of the Devil.

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


I response to the second dilemma... the following...

As explained in my previous response... the terms are all inclusive... the objection is sufficiently weakened to be moot.

In addition - it is not an uncommon feature of scripture that on occasions an economy of words is used.


Moreover, the Romans passage speaks of the riches of God’s glory on vessels of mercy. Why is mercy needed if this lump of clay is unfallen? Grace is getting what you don’t deserve; mercy is not getting what you do.
They are vessels of mercy, even in the un-fallen state, for their existence, when actualized in the temporal realm, will have the human species from our progenitors onward born legally guilty and so under condemnation.

Also Adam and Eve are rightly inclusive in that descriptor "vessels of mercy".
God decreed that Adam and Eve would fall... but had also decreed the slaying of the Lamb of God and clothed Adam and Eve in coats of skins.

The objection that the words "vessel of mercy" weaken the supra position is sufficiently weakened by the above considerations as to make it moot.


No God did not purposely create sinful creatures.

All humanity was in the loins of Adam who was created first.
All humanity was in the loins of Eve who was created second.
Adam and Eve walked with God in the garden.

So it is, at this point, and in this way... that all the human species (in the loins of Adam and Eve) are innocent and un-fallen and in the presence of God, in the garden.
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moonbeam

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God then is the proximate author (not the antecedent author) of their sin, contrary to Scripture (e.g., James1:13).
As established previously... The entire human race is in the loins of both Adam and Eve when they walk in the garden with God... So the entire human species was in a state of innocence, and in fellowship with God, in Adam and Eve, when they walked in the garden with God.

That means the charge that God creates sinful creatures is negated.

Secondly, God is bestowing mercy on the elect, yet the lump of clay is not yet fallen, so mercy used in Romans 9:23 must mean something very different than we have been taught by Scripture.
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Personally I do not find it, inappropriate, that the elect are called vessels of mercy, even when in a state of innocence, in the loins of Adam and Eve in the presence of God in the garden.
When you consider what God knows in regards His decrees unfolding... vessels of mercy... is appropriate... at anytime.
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David Lamb

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It's surely far more straightforward than that, for Genesis tells us:

Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.” (Ge 1:31 NKJV)

So that negates any charge of God creating sinful creatures.
 
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moonbeam

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The right that God has, to create creatures, and to dispose of them, as His purpose so determines, remains intrinsic regardless of any criteria.

To suggest that God posses a right over sinful creatures, but no right over sinless creatures, is without any logical basis... and absurd.

God can never be severed of His right... to determine anything... and the exercise of that right... is necessarily righteous.

That the eternal decrees of God, included the fall of Adam, is not in dispute... the result of that decree resulted in the universal condemnation of the human species including Adam and Eve... the fact that the passive voice is used is merely a reflection upon that universal reality and the propensity to sin it entails.

That predestination is presented as a positive act of God, is warranted in that the elect children of God are the purpose of the substitutionary death of Christ.

But it ought to be understood, that for God "to pass by" is as equally determinative.

Foreordination shares an equivalence with predestination... in that the outcome in either case is equally certain.
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moonbeam

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AMR's post is gracious in laying out the opposing view and a very solid presentation of his considerations of the supporting evidence for infra.

I think he is correct in that a pivotal issue revolves around love or grace.

I believe the election of the elect is/was an act of love... "God is love"... followed by the fall in Adam... from this position all the scripture references that the infra expounds on, are necessarily accepted, as incorporating the supra perspective, in that, they speak to a fallen humanity, after walking with God in right relationship in the garden in Adam and Eve.
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moonbeam

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That is a strong opening stance and one I am not at odds with.

I had a friend who would say this - "The reason Adam sinned was because he was a sinner"

A bit of an odd statement but what do you think?
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The Righterzpen

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Well, having just stumbled upon this thread; (and now having a crash course in what Supralapsarianism is): I'm going to take a crack at this from a different angle.

I'm familiar with the passages mentioned:
Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
The elect are elect from the foundations of the world.
And vessels of mercy, as well as vessels of wrath come from the same lump of clay.

Plus.... the notion of "double predestination" commonly being kicked around; though I do not conclude double predestinate as a Biblical doctrine. And I don't conclude it so because of the verse that says "the wages of sin...."; thus here goes my crack at answering this:

The wages of sin:
The unregenerate sinner has earned a "wage" for their sin. And this "wage" is predicated upon both the sinner's sin which is the violation of God's law written on their conscience. All of humanity has a conscience. That reality is par and parcel to being created in the image of God. The conscience is a "witness"; and the creation is a "second witness". (The "third witness" is Scripture.) "Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses let all things be established." And because the revelation given in Scripture can be seen in the creation; thus "they are without excuse". But on the positive side of that; no one has ever been "left without a witness" either.

And I'm sure we all agree here too, that the fall affected all of us; and because the fall affected all of us, we will and do commit sin. Thus we are all guilty of sin.

Now the "lump of clay" reference:
One is made a "vessel of mercy" and the other (essentially left) as a "vessel of wrath". But before the fall actually happened in time; this passage had no application. Interestingly, even before being given a command to follow; Adam and Eve were still capable of doing things that potentially displeased God; but until having been given a command; they weren't accountable to any sin they may have committed. Thus upon completing creation; God said that it was "good". Meaning it pleased Him; He was satisfied with what He'd created. The word "good" here in Genesis, is akin to the word "pleasure". (to be pleasing). It's generally conveyed in the context of something (or someone) being "beautiful to look at".

So consequently, until the fall actually happened and set into motion the necessity of "one lump (to be made) unto mercy"; that verse in Romans can not addressing God's intent (the accusation of creating something that was inherently corrupted from the onset) in His omniscience of knowing that the fall was inevitable.

Now why was the fall inevitable?
I think the answer to that question lies in the temporal nature of the creation. Adam was "created in the image of God". He was not God incarnate. God is not corruptible by the knowledge of good and evil; simply by nature of the entity that God is. He's omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, immortal and having no beginning and no end. Simply by the nature of His Being; God is not corruptible from possessing the knowledge of good and evil. And because Adam and Eve were not God incarnate; the temporal nature of their existence subjected them to corruption.

And part of the "knowledge of good and evil" that God possesses; means that He knew the fall would inevitably happen. (Also par and parcel to being omniscient.) It was unavoidable based on the temporal nature that creation was initially established in.

Now, Jesus the lamb slain from the foundation of the world:
Here's where the question gets interesting. Assuming by the context of this statement, that the atonement was actually completed from the point the creation itself was initiated. And given the Entity that God is; we understand that He was capable of securing the atonement "in eternity" before doing so "in time". I know that's hard for us to wrap our brains around, because the only reference we know is to living in time. That is the only point of reference we can have because we are not eternal. We certainly have the capacity to recognize the concept of being outside of time; but because we all have a beginning; it's difficult for us to understand the atonement being cohesive to both eternity and time. Though we recognize God possessing the ability to operate within both.

Obviously before God created anything; He had a plan "thought out".

So, now back to "vessel of mercy" in juxtaposition to "vessel of wrath":
This I see as more a judicial issue of how we are made accountable for our sin. The transgression of the law is a totally different "system" from God's action of providing atonement. (The distinct difference between the law and grace.) And this is why sin has a "wage" attached to it. The "wage" earned is the punishment for the commission of the sin. And that punishment is enacted upon, based on the decision of the sinner, as to what extent they decide to act upon the sin in their heart.

This is why Scripture says the servant who didn't know the master's will and didn't obey, will be beaten with few stripes; while the servant who did know the master's will and still did not obey, will be beaten with many stripes. The degree of punishment is based on the sin. A mass murderer will indeed receive greater condemnation than someone who swiped a pen from their employer. Not all sin receives the same punishment. The punishment "fits the crime". And this is why that is a concept also in human jurisprudence.

And because the conscience given is a reflection of the moral holiness of God; the law is not of an arbitrary whim of the law giver. Because God is constant, the law does not change and this is why the requirement is that one keep the whole law as the demonstration of their righteousness. (Which of course, may we all understand that our righteousness will never measure up to God's holiness.) That is a task we can not accomplish, because of the temporal nature of our existence. (I.E. we are not God.) Which is why pride ultimately is the downfall that leads to the punishment of the sinner. And the probable reason Scripture states hell was created for Satan and his fallen minions.

Though the irony here, is that apparently the fall affected the disobedient angels differently than it affected man. Because of Jesus's description of Satan. "a liar and murderer from the beginning; for there is no truth in him" we can conclude the likelihood that fallen angels totally lose the capacity for moral good once they transgress. And that is likely due to the fact that they are not created in God's image. Personally I believe the fall of Lucifer came shortly after the creation of Adam; and I believe the impetus of Lucifer's pride is that he saw himself as being superior to Adam. And that likely has connection to angels not having carbon based material bodies. Thus they do not have the capacity to reproduce. They were not given that capacity because they are not part of the salvation plan. There is no salvation for fallen angels. As Scripture describes that Christ did not take on the nature of angels.

Conclusion:
So.... God possessing "from the foundation of the world" the knowledge that there would be "vessels of wrath"; does not mean that He is the one culpable for their decisions that brought about the fall; though God did not choose to create a cosmos that would have made the fall impossible. (He could have done that too; and maybe on some other "plane" of existence He has?)

Now why did God create the universe the way that He did?
I recently had a discussion on this question with one of my son's friends. And the conclusion I came too; was that the design of the current cosmos (with it's capacity to become corrupted) "works together for the good" of God's elect. For out of the human desire to "know good and evil" (which is what cause the fall of the material world) we would not have understood the redemption plan. We wouldn't have seen the purpose for it, because we would not have known the difference between good and evil. And the "good" here is the redemption plan; because the atonement IS the demonstration of "God is love".


Post Script:

Now what was the origin of evil that caused the fall to happen in the first place?
That is a wholly other question; which I do have a theory on, but will not be discussed in this thread. It does have its own thread; which if anyone is interested in reading; that thread can be found here:

 
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