suicide?

HeartFullaLove · Jan 5, 2006

jak said:
I went into mental health thinking I would be doing mostly counselling. Then this patient I had spent over six months counselling with not much results responded just like clicking to your fingers to a drug one of my seniors gave him. "Controlling" symptoms is not a bad thing...it gave the poor boy such relief, and I was cursing myself for not having used it earlier. That sort of thing happened again and again and made me stop and think, and get more open to using medication in conjunction with other therapy even with Christians. I fully agree that medication is sometimes over-used, (which is what kept me off initially) and that mental illness is multi-factorial. but claiming that all mental illness is not illness at all is way out on an extreme position. Please lets be a little more balanced.

Controlling symptopms is about all one can do if there is an organic brain damage causing them. Otherwise it should only be used temporarily so that the person can gain a mantal equilibrium.

Read the book. The man who wrote it knows his stuff -- as do the many leading professionals who subscribe to his theory (or similar ones). There is nothing wrong with having an "extreme position" if that position is correct -- or even if it is closer to correct than what is prevailing. It would be impossible for me to give you a good understanding of this work in this kind of venue. Read the book.

jak · Jan 5, 2006

I'm also a professional and I have to say that I get pretty exhausted by Christians who think they know more than we in the field do, or imply that we are giving medication without thinking and evaluating each case carefully. I don't mind reading the book, if I can lay hands on it, and I'll try to keep an open mind, but may I suggest that you do too?
God bless.

HeartFullaLove · Jan 6, 2006

jak said:
I'm also a professional and I have to say that I get pretty exhausted by Christians who think they know more than we in the field do, or imply that we are giving medication without thinking and evaluating each case carefully. I don't mind reading the book, if I can lay hands on it, and I'll try to keep an open mind, but may I suggest that you do too?
God bless.

And I get pretty exhausted with professionals who act as though having their professional status makes them immune from having to consider something other than what they learned in school. I've followed up on the research and will continue, but, so far, my own counseling experience supports what I have said -- and it has for many professionals as well.

jak · Jan 6, 2006

Now that seems a little unfair considering I said I would read the book with an open mind!!
Peace. Let us both do our work well for the glory of God and the good of those who need help.
BTW, Happy Birthday!

HeartFullaLove · Jan 6, 2006

jak said:
Now that seems a little unfair considering I said I would read the book with an open mind!!
Peace. Let us both do our work well for the glory of God and the good of those who need help.
BTW, Happy Birthday!

Let's just say I've heard it before and I am GENUINELY tired of it. I hope you do look it up. BTW, for a Christian perspective, Jay Adam in "Competent to Counsel" describers his early work with Mowrer along these lines.

intricatic · Jan 6, 2006

ebia said:
I can't believe that a God who loves us is going to eternally damn someone because they could not see how to carry on in life.

I don't think God eternally damns anyone. We eternally damn ourselves by rejecting him; suicide could be a symptom of that, but I'm not going to give any cover-statements that are very vague and general because life is much more complex than it would have to be for a general statement to work with it.

intricatic · Jan 6, 2006

I guess I'm not the only one who thinks that psychiatric drugs are completely overused in this society. That's amazing.

jasperbound · Jan 6, 2006

Yes, by committing suicide, one is rejecting God and essentially giving Him the finger, but that's true of all sin. Anybody who sins is essentially giving God the finger, so it's stupid to act as if suicide is a special case. If people who commit suicide aren't Christians because by committing suicide, they are rejecting God, then people who sin aren't Christians because by sinning, they are rejecting God. Sin is sin.
As for the mental health of such a person, I doubt people who commit suicide, murder, rape, etc. are all there, yet murderers will still be held accountable for their murders.

jasperbound · Jan 6, 2006

Also, I should note that Job and Elijah, two men who might have had faith in the Lord, were suicidal at points in their lives.

HeartFullaLove · Jan 6, 2006

jasperbound said:
Also, I should note that Job and Elijah, two men who might have had faith in the Lord, were suicidal at points in their lives.

1. I don't think that saying in your despair that it would have been better if I had not been born is the same as being suicidal.

2. Neither actually made any attempt.

Overcomer2002 · Jan 6, 2006

Galatians 5:22-2322 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Galatians 5:22-2323 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Gee !!! I don't see depression, suicide, drug abuse, drunkedness, fornication ..etc !!!!!!

Reprobate = Not passing the test.

Don't you know that the Holy Spirit/Christ is in you? Unless you are REPROBATE

We were put on this earth to pass the test. Like Paul Said "don't be like Eve when Satan deceived her"

Sincerely

jasperbound · Jan 6, 2006

Overcomer2002 said:
Galatians 5:22-2322 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Galatians 5:22-2323 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Gee !!! I don't see depression, suicide, drug abuse, drunkedness, fornication ..etc !!!!!!

Reprobate = Not passing the test.

Don't you know that the Holy Spirit/Christ is in you? Unless you are REPROBATE

We were put on this earth to pass the test. Like Paul Said "don't be like Eve when Satan deceived her"

Sincerely

So, does that mean that everybody who sins is reprobate?

jasperbound · Jan 6, 2006

HeartFullaLove said:
1. I don't think that saying in your despair that it would have been better if I had not been born is the same as being suicidal.

2. Neither actually made any attempt.

True on #2, but they wanted to die.

Overcomer2002 · Jan 6, 2006

jasperbound said:
So, does that mean that everybody who sins is reprobate?

You can NOT serve two masters. For you will love the one and hate the other. You sin because YOU LOVE YOUR SIN. FACE IT, YOU LOVE YOUR SIN. YOU ARE A SLAVE TO SIN. WHEN YOU BEGIN TO HATE YOUR SIN THEN YOU CAN START UNDERSTANDING. AND YOU SIN BECAUSE YOU JUST DON'T THINK YOU CAN GET ALONG WITHOUT IT. NO FAITH. YOU HAVE NO FAITH THAT JESUS WILL PROVIDE AN ESCAPE SO YOU DON't HAVE TO SIN. AND GUESS WHAT? JESUS CANNOT WORK A MIRACLE WITHOUT FAITH!!!!!

LOOK IN THE MIRROR, WHAT DO YOU SEE? DO YOU SEE YOU, OR DO YOU SEE CHRIST? IF YOU SEE YOU, YOU HAVE NOT BEEN SANCTIFIED !!!

HeartFullaLove · Jan 6, 2006

jasperbound said:
True on #2, but they wanted to die.

I repeat No. 1. They did not say they wanted to die.

However, even if they did, they resisted temptation. What do you call it when you resist temptation? Certainly not sin.

Overcomer2002 · Jan 6, 2006

jasperbound said:
True on #2, but they wanted to die.

Well Gee !!! I guess Jesus was a sinner. He clearly said that he came to this world to die. And several times he was worried and frustrated. He clearly stated that "no one takes my life, I lay it down freely" OH yes, suicidal, thats it, Jesus was suicidal.

HOW ABSOLUTELY PATHETIC REASONING!!!!!!

jasperbound · Jan 6, 2006

HeartFullaLove said:
I repeat No. 1. They did not say they wanted to die.

However, even if they did, they resisted temptation. What do you call it when you resist temptation? Certainly not sin.

[bible]1 Kings 19:3-5[/bible]

So, if I were to say to God, "Kill me! Take my life, please!" that would not be suicidal? If I were to request that my life be taken away, that would not be suicidal?

jasperbound · Jan 6, 2006

Overcomer2002 said:
You can NOT serve two masters. For you will love the one and hate the other. You sin because YOU LOVE YOUR SIN. FACE IT, YOU LOVE YOUR SIN. YOU ARE A SLAVE TO SIN. WHEN YOU BEGIN TO HATE YOUR SIN THEN YOU CAN START UNDERSTANDING. AND YOU SIN BECAUSE YOU JUST DON'T THINK YOU CAN GET ALONG WITHOUT IT. NO FAITH. YOU HAVE NO FAITH THAT JESUS WILL PROVIDE AN ESCAPE SO YOU DON't HAVE TO SIN. AND GUESS WHAT? JESUS CANNOT WORK A MIRACLE WITHOUT FAITH!!!!!

LOOK IN THE MIRROR, WHAT DO YOU SEE? DO YOU SEE YOU, OR DO YOU SEE CHRIST? IF YOU SEE YOU, YOU HAVE NOT BEEN SANCTIFIED !!!

Why must people be nutty rather than answer a simple yes or no question with a simple yes or no?

jasperbound · Jan 6, 2006

Overcomer2002 said:
Well Gee !!! I guess Jesus was a sinner. He clearly said that he came to this world to die. And several times he was worried and frustrated. He clearly stated that "no one takes my life, I lay it down freely" OH yes, suicidal, thats it, Jesus was suicidal.

HOW ABSOLUTELY PATHETIC REASONING!!!!!!

Your reasoning is pathetic. Seriously, do you not see a difference between voluntarily sacrificing oneself for the sake of others and wanting one's life to end to escape one's troubles? If you see no difference between martyrdom and suicide, then that's your problem.

Overcomer2002 · Jan 6, 2006

OH I GET IT. JESUS SAID TO CRUCIFY OUR FLESH. PICK UP OUR CROSS AND FOLLOW ME HE SAID

SO THESE SUICIDAL PEOPLE SAY I GUESS I WILL DO WHAT JESUS SAID AND KILL MYSELF. KILL THE FLESH!!! YUP !! KILL MYSELF.

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