suicide?

Just Me Garry · Jan 2, 2006

There is only one sin that cannot be forgiven of men: Blasphmey against the Holy Spirit.

Matt 12:31-32

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
KJV

Mark 3:28-29

28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
KJV

ebia · Jan 2, 2006

HeartFullaLove said:
The only unpardonable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost -- which is another topic. However, there are unpardoned sins. If one's last act is murder and one does not ask forgiveness before the death occurs, the Scripture is plain, "No murderer will enter in."

I had considered suicide several times when I was unsaved and a lot younger. I was driven by selfisness, cowardice, and revenge. In either event, I was not driven by the kind of insanity that would render one incapable of being ablet to distinguish good from evil. Even if one is, one must understand that people usually arrive at that state THROUGH THIER OWN SINFUL CHOICES. One of my daughters was such and, by the grace of God, failed in her suicide attempts and was later delivered of the demons and dementia that drove her. Had she succeeded, I would think she would have been in Hell today as her insanity camde as a direct result of sinful choices made in her past.

God is just. If someone were to have had serious brain damage before the age of accountability and had made a decision to suicide while unable to know good and evil, God would judge accordingly. However, to simply judge that people are NOT in Hell from suicide because of the pressures of life is to give encouragement to any potential suicide reading it.

You must live in a very terrifying world. All of us commit sins all the time (see 1 John). If you were to, say, get hit by a bus before you got around to repenting....

The possibility of a quick, unexpected, death must really scare you.

HeartFullaLove · Jan 2, 2006

ebia said:
You must live in a very terrifying world. All of us commit sins all the time (see 1 John). If you were to, say, get hit by a bus before you got around to repenting....

The possibility of a quick, unexpected, death must really scare you.

I do live with a proper fear of God. There is nothing that quite will replace it. (If you don't have it, you are missing a necessary ingredient in your relationship with God.) My love for God is the source of other important things in my life. I don't fear unintentioal sin keeping me out of the kingdom. However, I was speaking of wilful sin, gross sin that went unrepented. Murder is such a thing. Self-murder is not an exception -- save that you may have no time to repent of it.

ebia · Jan 3, 2006

Sounds to me like "sins I might commit God can sort out, but sins only other people commit have to be actively repented of".

Harlan Norris · Jan 3, 2006

EastChief said:
I don't know if Marilyn Monroe would be the best example of a person to represent the reason eveyone commits suicide. (I know you didn't say that exactly, but that's how it sounds.)

I have a question for everyone here who thinks it is selfish, it is an unpardonable sin, and you are doing it to hurt others - Have you ever thought about suicide; ever?

Well, I have. I never planned to do it (like getting poison readily accesible or having a gun next to me) and never really got close, but I did think about it several times (not lately). You have no idea how a person feels or what they are going through. It was usually after many weeks (or months) of agonizing over life situations which seemed like they would never change. I do think the only reason I did not pursue it further was because I am a Christian and I did worry about going to hell. If I did not believe in hell, I might be dead now. (Actually, on many occasions I prayed hard for God to take me.)

This is really hard to put into words, and this is the only time I've ever talked about it. I'm glad it never got further than thinking about it, and if I still was thinking about it I would seek help. I just think it is important for a person who has thought about it to speak up. If anyone has any questions, I'll be happy to answer.

I suppose it is possible that some suicides are about long and painful physical illness.However,life situations are largely self wrot.We virtually never find ourselves in circumstances that can't be changed.One can just walk away from trouble,if they are willing to.Sometimes we get stuck.Our pride won't allow it,or our fear.Those of us that believe in God,have a different view of life.To me, life is a short term proving ground for eternity.That's how it is now.There was a time when this was not the case.During that time,difficulty seemed endless.It was very dicouraging.I probably have given idle consideration to self destruction,but,Inever really believed it was a reasonable solution.Now though, it's out of the question.

HeartFullaLove · Jan 3, 2006

ebia said:
Sounds to me like "sins I might commit God can sort out, but sins only other people commit have to be actively repented of".

Hmmm. Then you need to get your hearing aid checked out.

MoodyBlue · Jan 3, 2006

God condemns mentally ill people (do sane, rational people kill themselves?) who end up committing suicide, to eternal torture in the pits of hell? Wouldn't that fall under cruel and unusual punishment?

HeartFullaLove · Jan 3, 2006

MoodyBlue said:
God condemns mentally ill people (do sane, rational people kill themselves?) who end up committing suicide, to eternal torture in the pits of hell? Wouldn't that fall under cruel and unusual punishment?

The question here is HOW do they end up "mentally ill" (an arguable concept)? The mental illness I've dealt with has come from people continuing in sin they knew was wrong. Nor is suicide "irrational" in a fallen world. Most of the suicides (including attempted) I've been aware of were FAR from "mentally ill."

HollyHobbie · Jan 3, 2006

This thread is getting pathetically mean and unnecessary ! Its a christian thread right then why not keep it that way instead of killing each other with words !!

I Have lost 4 people 2 of which were relatives to suicide over the past 20 yrs 2 of which were freinds one of those I know for a fact was a strong Christian ! and I have consulted my own pastor on this and studied this the unpardonable sin is the sin of blasphemee from every thing I have studied.

Please before you continue slaughtering each other with your tounges have compassion for those who have suffered from the loss of a loved one through suicide.
Its something one never gets over.

Sometimes when I see Christians act like this it makes me ashamed of being a Christian there are non Christians that read these posts too you know.

Love In Christ
Holly Hobbie
Laura

HollyHobbie · Jan 3, 2006

P.S. Mental illness such as in my case can be caused by a physical condition, like an over or under active thyroid
that has been medically proven.

HeartFullaLove · Jan 3, 2006

HollyHobbie said:
P.S. Mental illness such as in my case can be caused by a physical condition, like an over or under active thyroid
that has been medically proven.

Does it deprive you of the ability to tell right from wrong?

ebia · Jan 3, 2006

HeartFullaLove said:
The question here is HOW do they end up "mentally ill" (an arguable concept)?

Are you seriously suggesting that mental illness is not a genunie medical condition?

The mental illness I've dealt with has come from people continuing in sin they knew was wrong.

Some mental illness is a result of past behaviour, much is not.

Nor is suicide "irrational" in a fallen world. Most of the suicides (including attempted) I've been aware of were FAR from "mentally ill."

Your first sentence, and your instance on putting quote marks around it, draws serious question marks over your competency to diagnose mental illness.

Does it deprive you of the ability to tell right from wrong?

Mental illness can seriously impair your judgement, including your ability to judge right from wrong.

HeartFullaLove · Jan 3, 2006

ebia said:
Are you seriously suggesting that mental illness is not a genunie medical condition?

I am. Nor am I alone. Many professionals agree that most of what we call mental ilness is nothing of the sort. Organic brain damage may be, but as mental illnesses go, they are rare.

See: The Myth of Neuroses: Overcoming the Illness Excuse by Dr. Garth Wood (1983)

Some mental illness is a result of past behaviour, much is not.

Reverse that. Ibid

Your first sentence, and your instance on putting quote marks around it, draws serious question marks over your competency to diagnose mental illness.

And your credentials? I recommend the reading.

Mental illness can seriously impair your judgement, including your ability to judge right from wrong.

Sometimes. Most times it doesn't.

BTW, I am still waiting for an answer to my question from HollyHobby.

ebia · Jan 3, 2006

HeartFullaLove said:
IAnd your credentials?

My other half is a mental health professional. Specifically a psychiatric nurse.

HeartFullaLove · Jan 4, 2006

ebia said:
My other half is a mental health professional. Specifically a psychiatric nurse.

I know married couples are one flesh, but that does not make them one brain. Nor does it make YOU an expert. The book I recommended is one of many postualting what some call the Moral Model. Mowrer was one of the ones who broke from the "blame someone else" model many years ago. None of the Moral Model people are particularly religious, but they understand how deeply disturbing it is when someone defies their internal moral compass. Their therapy WORKS too! I think you and your other half would find the book enlightening. It would probably explain some of what your other half sees that doesn't seem to fit the more common theories.

ebia · Jan 4, 2006

HeartFullaLove said:
I know married couples are one flesh, but that does not make them one brain. Nor does it make YOU an expert.

I didn't claim to be an expert. You asked, so I answered.

I'm not a huge fan of claiming expert status on this kind of forum, but I presumed that (since you are querying the status of others) you would also post your own credentials.

HeartFullaLove · Jan 4, 2006

ebia said:
I didn't claim to be an expert. You asked, so I answered.

I'm not a huge fan of claiming expert status on this kind of forum, but I presumed that (since you are querying the status of others) you would also post your own credentials.

I am a published writer and as such must do a LOT of research reading on any subject I write about. In my book about modern medical ethics, it was important for me to know psychiatric theory and practice. As part of this, I had to do a lot of reading on the subject -- both the popular ideas of psychiatry and the the direction psychiatry has moved since mosst of the Freudian stuff has been refuted.

When it comes to such things, even an ordinary motivated person with good reading skills and a willingness to use a medical dictionary a lot can become as knowledgable (though not as skilled) as a professional.

MoodyBlue · Jan 4, 2006

HeartFullaLove said:
I am a published writer and as such must do a LOT of research reading on any subject I write about. In my book about modern medical ethics, it was important for me to know psychiatric theory and practice. As part of this, I had to do a lot of reading on the subject -- both the popular ideas of psychiatry and the the direction psychiatry has moved since mosst of the Freudian stuff has been refuted.

When it comes to such things, even an ordinary motivated person with good reading skills and a willingness to use a medical dictionary a lot can become as knowledgable (though not as skilled) as a professional.

Just ask Tom Cruise, he has become an expert in psychiatry as well. Must be easy to do so, seeing how the only requirement is knowing how to read.

HeartFullaLove · Jan 4, 2006

MoodyBlue said:
Just ask Tom Cruise, he has become an expert in psychiatry as well. Must be easy to do so, seeing how the only requirement is knowing how to read.

Did you ever hear about the book, The Great Pretender? This man, over a course of years, practiced medicine (receiving high recognition in the local meical community), worked as an airline pilot, and several other such professions by simply reading and studying.

I didn't say "only," you did.

Tom Cruise aside, and not defending his false religion of Scientology, the organization of Scientology has done some incredible research in the area of psychiatry and, especially, the use of drugs in psychiatry. You would be amazed at how many of the exposes of the failures of these drug treatments started out with Scientology research. Having a degree in a disipline is no guarentee of expertise -- and degrees, BTW, come primarily as a result of a lot of reading and study (the clinical training notwithstanding).

Remember, psychology and psychiatry are NOT science, but art. The only science part is that certain drugs will "manage" certain symptoms. Human behavior is simply not subject to the kind of rigid testing science requires. The same therapy on one person will net completely different (sometimes opposite) responses from another person.

However, I did point you to at least two others whose expertise is in the field who say pretty much what I have said here, and all you could tink to do was mock the pursuit of knowledge by people without degrees in the field. If you want to ignore important data, that is your choice.

jak · Jan 5, 2006

I went into mental health thinking I would be doing mostly counselling. Then this patient I had spent over six months counselling with not much results responded just like clicking to your fingers to a drug one of my seniors gave him. "Controlling" symptoms is not a bad thing...it gave the poor boy such relief, and I was cursing myself for not having used it earlier. That sort of thing happened again and again and made me stop and think, and get more open to using medication in conjunction with other therapy even with Christians. I fully agree that medication is sometimes over-used, (which is what kept me off initially) and that mental illness is multi-factorial. but claiming that all mental illness is not illness at all is way out on an extreme position. Please lets be a little more balanced.

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