Suicide; Where do you end up?

Ave Maria · Aug 17, 2004

I believe that if you are saved and you commit suicide, you'll go to Heaven. If you're not saved, you'll go to Hell. However, I most staunchly discourage suicide! Everyone has a purpose and God has put us on this earth for a reason!

OrthodoxyUSA · Aug 17, 2004

Matt04 said:
I'm sure this has been discussed more than once, but I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on it, and I couldn't find a thread about it. So hear it goes!

If a christian commits suicide, what is your belief about where he will end up and why? It is my belief that it would be heaven, as suicide (murder) is just another sin. To me if you believe that suicide would lead a christian to hell, then you believe that a Christian must be perfect as it is possible to die in during any number of sins, for example get in a drunk driving accident, die in the middle of a lie, etc.

Sorry Matt04,

But suicide is the sin of despair, the same sin that ultimatly defeated Judas. It is also a sin against the Holy Spirit, for to despair is the same as saying that you can't be forgiven and things can't be put to right...

When we die, we are raised in spirit right then... we live in the spirit with a foretaste of what eternity will be like for us...(this is where the RCC came up with purgatory) If we were "moving closer" to God at our death then we will experience God's light as warmth, loving and gentle. If we were moving away from God (sinful) then we will experience the burn.

The sin will not go away unless it is removed by the creator, but that is done in this life when we repent (turn away from sin) and ask forgivness. It would not be possible to ask forgivness if our final act was sinful.

Thus we have heaven and hell... thinking of them as physical places is for the young, something to learn to fear, but the true nature of it is for wisdom, with time we begin to understand...

I truly hope this has not touched you life....

Forgive me...

servant4ever · Aug 18, 2004

What I think Holly is saying is that suicide is a sin just like lying and stealing. I think she says she "staunchly discourages" suicide becuase God has a plan for everybody, of which she says suicide is not a part of God's plan. I hope this makes more sense. Holly, if this isn't what you meant, I apologize.

servant4ever

SavedByGrace3 · Aug 18, 2004

*** MOD HAD ON ***

Needless to say this is a subject we will watch very carefully.

Advocating or excusing suicide in any form will not be tolerated.

There are some good comments going, but be wise in your comments.

Didaskalos

Carl Carlson · Aug 18, 2004

porcupine said:
There are several mentions that suicide is "not the unforgivable sin" but it could be the "sin unto death" spoken of in 1 John 5:16. The thing to remember here is that us is UNREPENTED sin -- and murder, to boot. There is a relatively short list of people who will defenitely not make it into the kingdom and murderer is on that list. It is a load of bullhockey to say if someone is "saved" that they will still go to heaven if they commit this murder. Let me ask you, what if someone who was "saved" was in the middle of molesting and mutilating to death a 3-year-old child had a fatal heart attack? Will we all dance around Jesus' throne with this man? "Saved" is not a one-time shot. The Bible talks about those of us who "have been saved" AND about us "being saved" (as in a continuing process) AND about us being saved "at the end." Remember that Jesus said, "He that ENDURETH TO THE END, the same shall be saved." A suicide does not "endure" -- they quit.

A saved person doesn't molest and murder anyone, much less children. Jesus has warned us about what happens to those who violate His children.

The big difference between the process of continued salvation, in which you were speaking of is this:

You cannot make provisions for yourself to sin. Christians make mistakes, but...

A Christian falls into sin. The sinner dives into it.

If you in your right mind make provisions to commit suicide, then I believe you to be serperating yourself from God and making an enemy with Him.

God will be the ultimate Judge and Authority. His decision will be just.

Suffolk Sean · Aug 18, 2004

Carl Carlson said:
A Christian falls into sin. The sinner dives into it.

Nice sentiment, but can you back it up scripturally? Not slamming but bromides are not scripture.

Carl Carlson · Aug 18, 2004

Suffolk Sean said:
Nice sentiment, but can you back it up scripturally? Not slamming but bromides are not scripture.

I have sinned since I became a Christian -- but it is against my will. I may take the large piece of chocolate cake, or let a lustful thought enter my mind. However, if I sin willfully, then I am a hypocrite and not a Christian at all. The first Epistle of John makes that very clear. When I am aware that I have done something wrong, I ask for God's forgiveness.

1 John 1:5-10
Walking in the light

5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

I do believe in eternal security for a true convert. He puts his hand to the plow and doesn't look back, because he is "fit" for the kingdom (Luke 9:62).

Those who are fit for the Kingdom are not hypocrites as was Judas (who committed suicide). The true convert is eternally secure in his faith, because his faith in Jesus is genuine rather than false.

However, if a man steals, lies, kills, rapes, hates, lusts, covets, commits adultery, etc., and calls himself a Christian, he would be very wise to examine himself and see if he is "in the faith." The Bible makes it very clear that hypocrites will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.

If a man has no understanding of true and false conversion (in his ignorance), he may make a calculated decision to forsake a few future eternal rewards and trade them for the immediate and temporary pleasures of sin. His confidence is in an interpretation of scripture that may have eternally tragic repercussions.

I think that teaching on true and false conversion would clear the air when it comes to the contentions between two opinions that so often divide the Church. It would bring closer together those who say you can lose your salvation at the drop of a sinful hat, and others who think that Christians can get away with murder and still be assured that they are saved, because they once professed faith in the Savior.

I pray that God will reveal His Light to all of us and that we will boldy walk in it. Glory to God.

porcupine · Aug 18, 2004

Suffolk Sean said:
Nice sentiment, but can you back it up scripturally? Not slamming but bromides are not scripture.

Proverbs 24:16
16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

Maccie · Aug 18, 2004

I do not think this is a suitable subject for a thread which can be read by anybody. No-one considers taking their own life lightly, they are in such despair or pain, whether physical, emotional or mental that life seems unbearable, and death is welcomed.

To judge a person, by posting some of the threads posted here, might well be the last straw. To tell someone they "will certainly go to hell" will pile guilt on them and be the last straw.

Please, unless you have been in that place, or know someone close to you who has, consider whether it is right to give your opinions on this particular subject.

Carl Carlson · Aug 18, 2004

Maccie said:
I do not think this is a suitable subject for a thread which can be read by anybody. No-one considers taking their own life lightly, they are in such despair or pain, whether physical, emotional or mental that life seems unbearable, and death is welcomed.

To judge a person, by posting some of the threads posted here, might well be the last straw. To tell someone they "will certainly go to hell" will pile guilt on them and be the last straw.

Please, unless you have been in that place, or know someone close to you who has, consider whether it is right to give your opinions on this particular subject.

To tell someone they "will certainly go to hell" wouldn't pile guilt on them. The sinner has already built up his own case against himself. We have all sinned and we all deserve death. If we are shown the penalty of our sins, we will have a desire to change our eternal destination, or should if we value our own life. We have an opportunity to change it! We will be earnestly seeking the answer to our salvation...Jesus Christ. The Law brings light to our sin. God's Word shows us our penalty for that sin, which brings us to the cross. This is the perfect point to accept our salvation in Christ. We can earnestly seek Him and avoid the hell that would have been our "just dessert". When we know what we deserve and realize that Christ saved us from all that, we have a greater appreciation and desire to avoid hell and get to heaven! Praise God for this opportunity.

porcupine · Aug 18, 2004

Let me ask Crispie and Holly, who say they believe that if a person is "saved" when they murder themselves, that they go to Heaven, not Hell:

Suppose Joe Doe reads your post and he is very depressed and under a lot of pressures in finances, marriage, and such and takes comfort in your words. Since he was already considering suicide anyway, he sees your words as the confirmation he needs to leave this life behind and go home to Jesus. Bang!

How are you going to explain your culpability to Jesus if Joe is in Hell?

porcupine · Aug 18, 2004

Maccie said:
I do not think this is a suitable subject for a thread which can be read by anybody. No-one considers taking their own life lightly, they are in such despair or pain, whether physical, emotional or mental that life seems unbearable, and death is welcomed.

To judge a person, by posting some of the threads posted here, might well be the last straw. To tell someone they "will certainly go to hell" will pile guilt on them and be the last straw.

Please, unless you have been in that place, or know someone close to you who has, consider whether it is right to give your opinions on this particular subject.

Isn't it far worse for people (as some here) to opine that the "saved" person who murders himself will go to Heaven? Wouldn't that be MUCH MORE of an inducement? Saying that they will go to Hell seems like a strong way to DISCOURAGE the suicide.

porcupine · Aug 18, 2004

I see a lot of whining about people with emotional distress and the like who might commit suicide and then I think of all the martyrs in China, India, Moslem countries, Sudan, Samalia, who endure starvation, beatings, flaying alive, burning, beheading, whipping, torture and such and do not consider suicide and I cannot help but think what a bunch of WIMPS we are as so-called believers here in the Western world (I include myself. I cannot vouch for my ability in such conditions as these martyrs.). History is replete with stories of the rigors of cutting-edge missionaries (not the modern "compound dweller" and "short-term" people) and we sit around justifying justifying self-murder because someone has a lot of "pressure" in their lives. Allow me to remind us of the Words of God:

1 Corinthians 16:13
13 Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.

2 Timothy 2:3
3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 10:22
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 24:13
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Suffolk Sean · Aug 18, 2004

porcupine said:
I see a lot of whining about people with emotional distress and the like who might commit suicide and then I think of all the martyrs in China, India, Moslem countries, Sudan, Samalia, who endure starvation, beatings, flaying alive, burning, beheading, whipping, torture and such and do not consider suicide and I cannot help but think what a bunch of WIMPS we are as so-called believers here in the Western world (I include myself. I cannot vouch for my ability in such conditions as these martyrs.). History is replete with stories of the rigors of cutting-edge missionaries (not the modern "compound dweller" and "short-term" people) and we sit around justifying justifying self-murder because someone has a lot of "pressure" in their lives. Allow me to remind us of the Words of God:

1 Corinthians 16:13
13 Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.

2 Timothy 2:3
3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 10:22
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 24:13
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Wow that is alot of invective. How about some grace to those that hurt? Sure there are times to stand up and be a man, but you don't know the pain people may be in. Sure suicide is wrong, but suicide happens because people hurt and telling them to stop crying doesn't always work.

Maccie · Aug 18, 2004

Porcupine - if we could think straight when we are in mental turmoil, then of course your words would be comforting, and we could probably stop being wimps.

But those contemplating suicide believe death is preferable to life, thinking straight is not possible.

I pray you will never be in that position yourself.

Maccie

porcupine · Aug 18, 2004

Suffolk Sean said:
Wow that is alot of invective. How about some grace to those that hurt? Sure there are times to stand up and be a man, but you don't know the pain people may be in. Sure suicide is wrong, but suicide happens because people hurt and telling them to stop crying doesn't always work.

Grace is not an excuse. There is plenty of help for those who are hurting. Jesus promises it. However, that help does not consist of keeping people in the place of being hurt. I can come along side someone who is hurting, but suicide is simply giving up on God and everyone God sends. I don't tell them to stop crying, but it does help to compare your suffering against the sufferings of people who have SERIOUS problems.

Carl Carlson · Aug 18, 2004

Maccie said:
Porcupine - if we could think straight when we are in mental turmoil, then of course your words would be comforting, and we could probably stop being wimps.

But those contemplating suicide believe death is preferable to life, thinking straight is not possible.

I pray you will never be in that position yourself.

Maccie

With God, all things are possible. Intervention by prayer does some awesome things. We need to get on our knees if we want to see people saved from death. We also have to get up of our knees and go seek and save the lost and hurting.

Where there is pain, there is healing.

Where there is turmoil, there is peace.

Where it seems that there is nothing left, there is hope.

Praise be to God, the Hope of us all.

porcupine · Aug 18, 2004

Maccie said:
Porcupine - if we could think straight when we are in mental turmoil, then of course your words would be comforting, and we could probably stop being wimps.

But those contemplating suicide believe death is preferable to life, thinking straight is not possible.

I pray you will never be in that position yourself.

Maccie

If we cannot hear God's Word we aren't thinking straight, for sure. But there is nothing more powerful than God's word to bring us back. Certainly it is much worse to tell them something that would lead them to believe that suicide is acceptable, don't you think? You didn't answer that.

katherine2001 · Aug 18, 2004

Yes, prayer does awesome things, but we also need to be there for people who are depressed and suicidal. We need to encourage them to tell us what is going on, and to encourage them to get professional help to help them with the depression. We need to show them that we love them and that they have a place in this world that nobody else can fill. They would be greatly missed if they are no longer here.

Also, none of us has it made. As Paul says, it is those who persevere to the *end* who will be saved. I think Porcupine has a point. We may be doing a grave disservice to say that if they are *saved*, they are going to heaven. They might think "why not just get out of my misery on this earth and go home to Jesus?"

Only God can judge what happens to a person when they commit suicide. He is the only one who knows what state of mind they were truly in, and all the other components that would need to be taken into consideration. All we can do is pray for God's mercy on that person.

Maccie · Aug 19, 2004

porcupine said:
If we cannot hear God's Word we aren't thinking straight, for sure. But there is nothing more powerful than God's word to bring us back. Certainly it is much worse to tell them something that would lead them to believe that suicide is acceptable, don't you think? You didn't answer that.

I didn't think I had to spell it out! If you are not thinking straight, then whatever anyone says to you either doesn't reach your ears, or goes in one side and rapidly out the other. If you have got to the point of seriously considering suicide then whether someone else thinks it acceptable or not is neither here nor there.

If you go to someone and ask if a suicide goes to hell or not, then you are asking for help. To be told yes, you will go to hell, when you consider you are already in hell, is no help. Love, compassion, practical advice and even actually taking that person to medical assistance is of far more use.

Theological discussion can come later.

Maccie

Suicide; Where do you end up?

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