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A church should not be a business and growth comes from the Lord. We plant the seed and water it with prayer but only He can cause new birth. I do believe God is sovereign over salvation. I believe in the doctrine of election. If we are seeding and watering then we shouldn't worry about the growth. We care because of what it says about our fallen world but we can't measure success by it. What if by God's will fewer are coming to believe in our time? I don't even see keeping the doors open as a reason to focus on growth. In some countries, the church is completely underground. There are no paid pastors, fancy facilities, or music teams. Yet, the church typically thrives under those circumstances. Christianity gets real when you face arrest and imprisonment. I think persecution might be the best thing for the church here in America and maybe in other countries. Take away the tax-exempt status of giving and force churches to focus on the essentials. Maybe the world will take notice when our churches no longer look like country clubs and Christians put more time and energy into evangelism than they do in politics. I would rather go to a small church of passionate Christians than a large church trying to cater to everyone and anyone.I think many modern churches are often chasing their own tails trying to acquire new members. Just as business organizations are influenced by the last great business book written, I think church programming is too often influenced by the latest book or seminar on how to grow and sustain a congregation. Then the church tries to put everyone into the formula it has been led to believe will work. Only it doesn't. The church is great at trying to force the square peg into the round hole. And, for many people it doesn't fit. I think it is important for churches to find out what inquirers are looking for and to try to incorporate them into the life of the church in the manner the inquirer values without pushing folks out of their comfort zone. I go to church for corporate worship. I am not interested in your fellowship group...and I'm certainly not coming to your potluck. More power to the persons that derive something positive from that. There is nothing wrong with it, but it's not why I go to church. When I headed off to college at age 18 I reassured my mother I would still go to church, but I told her I was never going to another potluck as long as I lived. I've pretty much kept both those promises.
In my former denomination, I had a pastor whose sermon schtick always included something like, "Turn to the person in the pew next to you and tell them... (something God has done in your life this week) or (Jesus loves you and so do I)" or something like that. You get the idea. I couldn't stand it. Instead, I warmly greeted my neighbor, told them I didn't do this (foolishness), wished them a good week, and finally started looking for a new church that is fine with the person I am.
It sounds like he had his cart a bit before the horse. He may have been organising something for the first time. From my own experience it can be difficult organising an event. Maybe someone sent him out to snag a few folks so they could say there was some interest in people wanting to attend. In any case I believe you were correct not to commit yourself until they could provide more concrete details such as itinerary of what the activities would be, as the term "retreat" is in danger of losing its meaning. Quite often its just a men's weekend that is being organised, so they might be better to call it such.I had an interesting conversation with an elder at a church I attended years ago. He was in charge of an upcoming men's retreat and signups were starting that day. He cornered me after church and encouraged me to sign up for the retreat. I asked him for more information. Was there a theme or topic? Was there an itinerary? Was there a speaker? He indicated that the details were still being worked on. He said he had a speaker. I asked who the speaker was and what he would be talking about. He said he was leaving it up to the speaker to pick a topic. I told him that I would wait for more details before making a decision.
Well maybe the leaders need to start teaching and preparing their congregations for that!I think persecution might be the best thing for the church here in America and maybe in other countries.
Sometimes I get a bit cynical when a pastor rambles on about giving, then about helping the homeless, all the while they want to buy a gigantic expensive building for churching that is going to sit empty and completely useless 90% of the time. How about we all gather outside, regardless of how cold and windy and rainy it is? That will generate some sympathy for the homeless, and hey, we'll have a bunch of money not tied up in a building to actually help them with!A church should not be a business... They don't have to have a program for everything. They don't need gimmicks and multimedia. They don't care how many people attend and they don't take on loads of expenses that require a large attendance to support... the church knows that they all have a mission that extends beyond the four walls of the church.
The painful reality is there is very little of the modern church that the Apostles of old would recognize. It seems that hitting the reset button is the only real option right now. Our fellowship has done that this last spring, and now the whole room is happy. I have generally banned anyone from calling me a pastor in an effort to remove the church class system between leadership and laity. And I told everyone to give where ever you want as I work at a local hardware store to pay our bills. Hitting the reset has been the best thing for us as we just live life in the presence of God.Sometimes I get a bit cynical when a pastor rambles on about giving, then about helping the homeless, all the while they want to buy a gigantic expensive building for churching that is going to sit empty and completely useless 90% of the time. How about we all gather outside, regardless of how cold and windy and rainy it is? That will generate some sympathy for the homeless, and hey, we'll have a bunch of money not tied up in a building to actually help them with!
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing that.Here's a thought. It seems to me that the traditional church format isn't working anymore. You get up early Sunday morning, you make it in time for coffee and a treat, you sing songs, then you listen to some guy talk for an hour. That's been how things have been done for longer than most of us have been alive. But does that mean we should continue this format?
This would not be an issue concerning doctrine. Based on Scripture, I myself see nothing particularly sacred about Sunday morning as a time to meet. While I have very little in common with Seventh Day Adventists, they are correct in that the Sabbath is Saturday, not Sunday. (This doesn't mean I concur with the implications they draw from this point.)
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing that.
Given that the Ten Commandments specify the 7th day (Saturday) as the day for "holy assembly" Lev 23:3 Ex 20:8-11, do you think that it is reasonable for Seventh-day Adventists to hold what Lev 23 calls "holy convocation" at that time?
In Acts 13 the gentiles request that more Gospel preaching be scheduled and presented to them "on the next Sabbath" -- Acts 13:42 - in your POV do you think it was right for Paul to wait for the next Sabbath instead of calling them to meet "tomorrow" on week-day-1 as a result of his first gospel message to them which they were already accepting?
In Deut 5:22 The Bible says God wrote the TEN commandments on stone "and He added no more". Assuming we all agree that more than TEN are important for us when it comes to "all of scripture" - what meaning do you think God is conveying in that Deut 5:22 statement?
True - but they are very specific about the 7th day as is Gen 2:1-3, Ex 16 "tomorrow is the Sabbath" (no manna fell on Sabbath), Lev 23:3 a day of holy convocation, Is 58:13 no secular activity on that day .... etc.The Ten Commandments are broad statements regarding how the Lord expects us to deal with Him and with others.
agreed.Many moral imperatives will have some relation to one or more of these commandments. And if a clear moral imperative doesn't clearly derive from the Ten Commandments, then they would derive from some other biblical principle.
agreed. The Jews did that a lot and so do others.He might have written this to communicate that the broad biblical moral standards are complete as written. False teachers often add imperatives that have no biblical basis and passing them off as if they were as fundamental as the Ten Commandments.
Agreed.Saying X is sin when it is not is just as dangerous - possibly more so - than erring in the other direction.
But I am asking you about specific texts and very specific practices as noted above.As an aside: many Christians believe false teachings are loose in their morals, when in fact heresies are oftentimes legalistic.
If this answers your questions:True - but they are very specific about the 7th day as is Gen 2:1-3, Ex 16 "tomorrow is the Sabbath" (no manna fell on Sabbath), Lev 23:3 a day of holy convocation, Is 58:13 no secular activity on that day .... etc.
hence my two questions in response to your statement about Adventists and the Sabbath
1. Given that the Ten Commandments specify the 7th day (Saturday) as the day for "holy assembly" Lev 23:3 Ex 20:8-11, do you think that it is reasonable for Seventh-day Adventists to hold what Lev 23 calls "holy convocation" at that time?
The people probably invited Paul to speak on the next Saturday for practical reasons, and not so much out of anything directly related to the Sabbath. Verse 44 says nearly the whole city came to hear Paul speak, so it is likely the people making this request were anticipating that others would be very interested in what Paul had to say - and the Sabbath would be their next opportunity to do so.2.In Acts 13 the gentiles request that more Gospel preaching be scheduled and presented to them "on the next Sabbath" -- Acts 13:42 - in your POV do you think it was right for Paul to wait for the next Sabbath instead of calling them to meet "tomorrow" on week-day-1 as a result of his first gospel message to them which they were already accepting?
Hopefully my answers are on-point to your questions.agreed.
agreed. The Jews did that a lot and so do others.
Agreed.
1 John 3:3 "sin IS transgression of the Law"
But I am asking you about specific texts and very specific practices as noted above.
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