Still Confused

Shannonkish · Oct 1, 2003

I appreciate the Billy Graham link and I offer another BILLY GRAHAM LINK on our specific topic at hand...

http://billygraham.org/qna/qna.asp?i=587

Achichem · Oct 1, 2003

Thank you for your input but that confused me, I do nto think that is a value to anyone(but what do I know)

Let me show what I mean:

Once we accept God's free gift of eternal life through repentance from sin and faith in Jesus, the moral law becomes a guide for how we live out our new life in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit

Agreed

The civil laws of Israel have passed away, since the church is not a nation. The ritual laws of sacrifice, priesthood, and Temple have been fulfilled in Jesus, and are no longer applicable to the church (see the book of Hebrews).

This is where you lose even, what the hell is he talking about.

What does he put as ritual laws? And how when something is fulfilled is it not longer applicable? Was the attempts to keep it trying to fulfill? Cause that surly not why people like David kept it.(in my eyes at least)

Agree though, the laws of sacrifice, priesthood, and Temple have been fulfilled.

However, the basic moral law of the Old Testament is clearly reflected in the New Testament guidelines for the Christian life

This is once again where he losses me? Moral law, sure, but what about health law, charity keeping, tithing, keeping the celebrations of the Lord? These are not included in either statement; he simply does not talk about them.

Many people feel they can win God's favor and have eternal life by following the old civil and ritual laws, and do enough good deeds so that they balance out their bad deeds.

I dont know about anyone else, but it not earning favour, its following his example, this confuses me?

You cannot save yourself -- but Christ can, and He will as you commit your life to Him by faith. If you would like to make that commitment today, please see

Steps to Peace With God.

Form steps to peace with god.

Step 1: God's Purpose: Peace and Life

God loves you and wants you to experience peace and life -- abundant and eternal.

No really, I would have never guessed but his purpose is to make us his children, not the make a sea of love.

Step 2: The Problem: Our Separation

God created us in His own image to have an abundant life. He did not make us as robots to automatically love and obey Him. God gave us a will and a freedom of choice.

Once again a true fact, with no value.

Do you not know, there is no problem; we must learn to hate sin as our father hates sin, so that we can gain life through him.

Step 3

God's Bridge: The Cross

Jesus Christ died on the Cross and rose from the grave. He paid the penalty for our sin and bridged the gap between God and people.

more like payed the debt, but the point is true.

Step 4

Our Response: Receive Christ

We must trust Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and receive Him by personal invitation.

Ya, that also entails following him! Why did he not mention that point?

Step 5

Prayer

Ya, you have to repent before that, why is repent not in here, that is kind of really important.

How to Pray:

Dear Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner and need Your forgiveness. I believe that You died for my sins. I want to turn from my sins. I now invite You to come into my heart and life. I want to trust and follow You as Lord and Savior. In Jesus' name. Amen.

Sorry I pray in the way, lord yshua told me to pray:

Watch here is an example of the essentials:

O holy father, Holiest is your name, let your will be done, and mine made dust in your glory In yshua name. Amen
why do i not see that, in his example how to pray?

Achichem · Oct 1, 2003

Shannonkish said:
God gave the food laws, however Jesus and Paul both said they were meaningless in the New Testament.

Did you read what i put, You neither answerd my questions? nor took what I said about the topic.

Health reasons, not salvation, purpose yes, effect slavation in one way if you do not even trust God on a matter of health(if you tried it then fine) then I have to wonder!

Shannonkish · Oct 1, 2003

okay.. well this seems to be turning into similar conversations and thus I will end it now.

Achichem · Oct 2, 2003

okay.. well this seems to be turning into similar conversations and thus I will end it now.

Please do not, if you sensed any hostility from me it is towards Billy Gram not you, please, you do not need to leave.

I was only pointing out you never answered my questions, which have to do with what you are still not understanding about our explanations. I only added the bit about not understanding unclean foods because I did not yet click on your link, I am responding to that now.

Please I want to find understanding; confusion is the enemy, not our friend.

If your question is yet to be answer you need to elaborate why exactly in what we are saying is not coming through as an explanation.

Now back to Billy Gram:

Does God require us to follow the Old Testament laws about not

eating pork and other kinds of meat today?

No, but you should anyways!

The dietary laws for Israel recorded in Leviticus, chapter 11,

which include, for example, a prohibition against eating pork, were given for specific religious and, perhaps, health reasons. The New Testament, however, makes it clear that observation of these Old Testament food laws for religious reasons is no longer required in the New Testament era.

Really, actually they are not black and white clear like that at all:

Mark 7:17-23, NKJV:

When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable. So He said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?" And He said, "What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man."

Because it does not enter his heart but his stomach = does that relate at all to health or exclusively to salvation?

Have I said one who eats un-clean is caused to : proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness.

No what I said is we keep what is Good for the purpose it was intended, Health and perhaps more, not salvation!

Second: context of the incident:

Mark 7:1-5, NKJV:

Then the Pharisees and some of the scribes came together to Him, having come from Jerusalem. Now when they saw some of His disciples eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands in a special way, holding the tradition of the elders. When they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other things which they have received and hold, like the washing of cups, pitchers, copper vessels, and couches.

Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?"

tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands = it was not even the eating of unclean food that was being discussed

Mark 7:12-13,NKJV:

no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."

this is his statement made before this, his response to the Pharisee, did it have anything to with Leviticus unclean food laws?

Mark 7:14-15,NKJV:

Hear Me, everyone, and understand: There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man.

His purpose, I man is not made unrighteous by eating unclean food. How does that make the purpose of the law, void if Jesus him self says that was never the purpose of the law.

Mark 7:19

thus purifying all foods?"

in context does this still have a clear meaning of disproving biblical truths set out by the father? Or do you think this disproves the initial point of the point and the secondary point. That tradition is pointless in this regard and that food do not have to do with salvation.

Anyway you look at it, it not that clear.

But wait thebible makes it clear when it chooses a side in the other testament of that account in Matthew.

Here is its concluding statement:

Matthew 15:1-20

These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man."

Further proof can be found in the account of peter in acts who says he has never eaten unwashed foods when they appeared to him in his dream,also they still represented the unclean, even to a person who witness this ordeal.

Jsus did not undo anything his father said before him!

In Acts 10:9-16, Peter was informed by God through a vision that he was not to reject the use of certain animals for food on a religious basis.

A vision represent something! If you read on Pter tells us what the dream meant,and it was not that he should eat unclean food.

The apostle Paul also writes, "For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer" (1 Timothy 4:4).

Perhaps, but:

1 Timothy 4:1-5, NKJV:

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

You should look at Talmud vs. Leviticus kosher laws, you will find out something interesting.

The Bible makes it clear that "the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" (Romans 14:17). There is no saving grace in either eating or not eating certain foods. We are saved by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; This, of course, does not mean that all animals we use for food are of equal value from a health standpoint.

Most certainly! I could not agree more!

if you disagree with somthing, please ponit out where you think I went wrong, quoting it would be the best, and would help me out a lot.

Thanks,
God bless,
Datsar

Shannonkish · Oct 2, 2003

no, really.. this is doing nothing but onfusing me even more. I am pretty convinced that the way I am living has been working out just fine... at least God hasn't convicted me otherwise... so I think MJ is not for me... if it is for you.. hey that is your thing.. but for me... it is leaglistic and pointless (no offense) and that is all it would lead to in my life. As I mentioned before I wouldn't grow closer to God, but rather further apart.

Achichem · Oct 2, 2003

Shannonkish said:
no, really.. this is doing nothing but onfusing me even more. I am pretty convinced that the way I am living has been working out just fine... at least God hasn't convicted me otherwise... so I think MJ is not for me... if it is for you.. hey that is your thing.. but for me... it is leaglistic and pointless (no offense) and that is all it would lead to in my life. As I mentioned before I wouldn't grow closer to God, but rather further apart.

In that case, I certainly agree you are making the right choice for yourself.

As I have been in a situation of distraction, and it is not good, not good at all.

I would however still suggest, that you try the biblical kosher challenge for a week or two, no harm in trying it out, see if it makes you feel better, and if you could PM me your results.

Good luck,
And God bless,
Datsar

Shannonkish · Oct 2, 2003

i have tried lots of things before... including the "kosher challenge" and fasting. Fasting is cool and there is much needed spiritual benefits from that... but the "kosher challenge" did nothing physically or spiritually for me.

Thanks though.

iitb · Oct 2, 2003

Shannonkish said:
no, really.. this is doing nothing but onfusing me even more. I am pretty convinced that the way I am living has been working out just fine... at least God hasn't convicted me otherwise... so I think MJ is not for me... if it is for you.. hey that is your thing.. but for me... it is leaglistic and pointless (no offense) and that is all it would lead to in my life. As I mentioned before I wouldn't grow closer to God, but rather further apart.

I'm inclined to agree with DaTsar. If Torah obedience is going to hinder your relationship with G-d, then it probably isn't for you. You can only go down the path He leads you down, or at least you should only go down that path, and if you can't find a balance between law and grace, then you should probably stay where you're at.

Thanks for dropping by, maybe we'll cross paths in another forum!

Justin

SonWorshipper · Oct 2, 2003

Shannonkish said:
God gave the food laws, however Jesus and Paul both said they were meaningless in the New Testament.

it is leaglistic and pointless (no offense) and that is all it would lead to in my life.

See with that kind of attitude I have to wonder if you really were interested in learning at all? You pre-suppose what following the whole Bible will do for you before you even try.

Just look at your statements above, you say that G-d gave the food laws and then he came ( Jesus and G-d are one) and said that they were meaningless. Now If I really thought that, the G-d of the Hebrew Bible would NOT be worthy of my love and my worship and I would consider that legalistic and pointless, but my G-d is the same today as He was yesterday and will be tomorrow. However when you really find out from a correct reading of the scriptures (that someone apparently has given you the incorrect interpretation thereof) you will see that the same G-d that gave them did NOT say they were meaningless, nor did he teach his disciples that at all. If you are talking of Matthew 15? The Pharasees were offended because the disciples wouldn't wash their hands, ( something that they added to the law that Jesus spoke against) He was not dis'in the Kosher laws He set down, for that would be a cruel G-d.

All I can say is if you want an impersonal, comfortable relationship, stay where you are, it is safe, but if you really want to know your creator, and His Spirit is who is leading you to inquire about us, then don't reject it. If however you just were interested and thought you might want to "try it on" to see if you like it, then you are correct, it is not for you. I can tell you from direct painful experience that MJ is not for the weak at all, I have never been under such spiritual attack in all my life and I have been a believer for over 30 years, as I have in the past year and a half. The devil knows what is right and how to please the L-rd the most and walk in his ways and he hates it when someone finds that path and will do anything he can to stop it from happening, but this just serves to bring one even closer to G-d and rely on him even more so he loses both ways.

One other thing, please don't call the way we serve the L-rd and follow in his way to walk , legalistic, for we as any believer have had the legal document that indicts us torn in half and nailed to the tree, love and grace did that. We follow the L-rds word to live the way He wants us to , not to make us righteous, but holy unto him, set apart from the rest of the world, called out and separate, we too are no longer under the law, but choose to walk in the right way because that is what the L-rd wants us to do.

Let me just ask you this, It is legal to have an abortion in this country (US) so would you do it because it is legal?

(Hypothetical) -Or, how about, it is legal now to go into a store and take something and not have to pay for it if you don't want to, do you do it?

Achichem · Oct 2, 2003

SonWorshipper,

but she also said they were that way to her, because they would distract her as she does not know how to forgive herself if she crosses even the littlest one.

In-till one learns to forgive as/like Y'shua or the Father, the laws would be burdensome, don't you think?

It would be like those who took the laws before faith; it would be no use to them.

So she, I think needs to study the basics a little longer before exploring the fullness of the father and the son, and all other teachings of the spirit.
datsar

SonWorshipper · Oct 2, 2003

I understand what you are saying ,,but does denying that there are laws to follow make them non-existant? No. So if you break one, just because you don't believe you have to follow it , does it make it non-existant? No.

Shannon has nothing to forgive herself for, for breaking a law, that is the L-rds job, and all we need to do is repent. He knows that we aren't perfect and will forgive, but that is what the laws were made for so we know how to do right. He wants us to learn of His mercy and in doing so , bring that to others, in forgiveness when they "sin" against us. The L-rd was explicit about this when the disciples asked how to pray.

Remember he would rather have mercy than sacrifices.

Sabian · Oct 2, 2003

Shannonkish said:
God gave the food laws, however Jesus and Paul both said they were meaningless in the New Testament.

Can you please show me where YAHSHUA said that HIS FATHER's food Law's are meaningless in the New Testament. Thats a new verse to me.
Meaning less as in there is nothing to learn from it?
Why would FATHER YAH give a LAW that you can learn nothing from.
May I remark that it could be you just do not see the Point.
I think you need to go over these verses again where you think YAHSHUA say they are meaningless?

Sabian · Oct 2, 2003

Shannonkish said:
no, really.. this is doing nothing but onfusing me even more. I am pretty convinced that the way I am living has been working out just fine... at least God hasn't convicted me otherwise... so I think MJ is not for me... if it is for you.. hey that is your thing.. but for me... it is leaglistic and pointless (no offense) and that is all it would lead to in my life. As I mentioned before I wouldn't grow closer to God, but rather further apart.

(I am pretty convinced that the way I am living has been working out just fine...)
My way is the Right way is that what you mean to say?

(But for me... it is leaglistic and pointless (no offense) and that is all it would lead to in my life.)

Can I ask what Laws your church has?
Do you have to believe in the trinity to be a member?
Do you have to be baptised to be a member?
Do you have to tithe to be a member?
Isn't that Leaglistic?
Can you fine the word Leaglistic in scripture for me?
What kinda Laws does your pastor have to obey?
Is it alright for him to be a child molister ? Where is the line?
Maybe the line is and always will be the WORD of YHWH.

I see you did not coment on the fact that YAHSHUA did not eat Unclean food.
I find it funny that Christians say What would jeses do , but fail to look at what YAHSHUA did.
Is YAHSHUA your example? Did YAHSHUA eat Unclean food?
Did YAHSHUA keep the FEAST days?

Shannonkish · Oct 2, 2003

All I can say is if you want an impersonal, comfortable relationship, stay where you are, it is safe, but if you really want to know your creator, and His Spirit is who is leading you to inquire about us, then don't reject it.

Excuse me! I have a very passionate and intimate relationship with my creator. I don't need laws to have that. There is NOTHING impersonal about my relationship with God!! I am very offended that you would say that.

Liek I said I am done with this topic. I apreciate your responses, however again, MJ is just not for me. And I realy don't need anyone on this site to tell me where my relationship with my God lies, that is between me and him.. and according to us... our relationship is good. It is constantly growing... on a daily consistent basis.. and has been for the 6 years that I have been a Christian.. and that happens to be 6 years without following the laws of the OT. And as I mentioned before, until God convicts or brings understanding to me, things with my creator will remain in the same context, and will continue growing.

Shannonkish · Oct 2, 2003

and btw, God isn't nugging my heart telling me to find out more aobut MJ... It is more along the lines of needing research for a paper. I have that information now and wrote the paper 2 days ago. So, for those of you who are convinced that the "Holy Sprirt is guiding me to MJ." you are mistaken. The Holy Spirit led me to Christianity 6 years ago and is leading me towards the Father... not towards anything else.

SonWorshipper · Oct 2, 2003

No, I was not convinced, that is why said what I said, and you have verified that.

At least we were honest and forthright ( not trying to hurt at all) but you were just asking for a paper for class? I doubt that your paper would present MJ for what it truly is since you say that you still do not understand. Many took the time to reply to you and help you to understand and you reply in rudeness telling us that you still don't get it but know it is not for you, but you got what you needed for your paper. Is that the kind of loving relationship you are taught?

Just one last thing, you say that the laws of the OT are null, but what do you do about Acts 15:20? do you follow what is written there for gentiles? Three of the four are Kosher laws and the other is of the Levitical laws. Verse 21 says the rest you will be taught about in synagogue, for that is where torah is read.

Do you follow that? Does your church teach Torah?

Shalom

Sabian · Oct 2, 2003

Can we see your paper or is it a secret?

And for the Record I am a child of YAH not a MJ.

I think the MJ's here on this form just accept me.

Achichem · Oct 2, 2003

Shannonkish said:
and btw, God isn't nugging my heart telling me to find out more aobut MJ... It is more along the lines of needing research for a paper. I have that information now and wrote the paper 2 days ago. So, for those of you who are convinced that the "Holy Sprirt is guiding me to MJ." you are mistaken. The Holy Spirit led me to Christianity 6 years ago and is leading me towards the Father... not towards anything else.

I sorry I took you the worng way!
But as for that paper I would love to see it.If you would not mind.

You can email it to me

I will not send a reply, I am just intrested to read it.

yod · Oct 3, 2003

What I mean.. Law and Grace are completly different things... the Bible tells us that we are not bound by the law... yet, you are telling me that I am not bound by it, however, I still need to follow it.. logically, that doesn't make sense.

Do you realize taht there are over a thousand "commandments" in the NEW Testament?

the point is this.....everyone can not be a law unto themselves. I know christians who smoke weed and justify it because they are under grace and it's not written specifically in the Bible.

The Holy Spirit should be enough conviction but it isn't apparently where there is grey areas. The Torah is a good reference for making judgements about what is right or wrong. If it is called "wrong" in the Torah, it is still wrong. The punishment has obviously changed...now our chastisement is on Him...but does that now make it "right"?

As Paul says in Romans 7;

If the law had not told me that covetousness was a sin, I would not know.

Jesus did make the New Covenant Law a "positive" instead of a "negative" when He summed up the entire Law by saying to "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you". Hope that helps...

now, in regard to the Feast Days; The main Feast days call for a holy convocation. The word used for "convocation" has a double meaning. It also means "rehearsal"

These Feast Days are rehearsals for something....how would anyone be prepared for what they are teaching if they don't go to rehearsal? You will someday be at the actual feast which we are rehearsing for right now.
See Isaiah 25 and the last chapter of Zechariah for further details....

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