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Shannonkish

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I am still confused about MJ. I want to understand that is why I am asking questions and finding scripture.. to understand your point of view and your beliefs. I find nothing wrong with what you believe, I just want to understand it more in depth.

Please do not think that I just want to argue with you. These are real questions I have and I don't think it is right to get upset about me asking a question or even taking my point of view to understand yours.

So without further ado..

Law..

Let me make sure I have this correct... Please correct if I am wrong.
Some of the Old Covenant laws are to be followed, except those that obviously were meant for the literal land in Israel or require the Temple.

You mention that in Matthew 5:17 it says that Jesus did not come to abolish the laws.. which I agree with.

So, what do you do with this:

While I agree that Jesus didn't come to abolish the law... or to do away with... Jesus fulfilled the law.

However, if we are to live under the old covenant, the covenant that was given to Israel, then what is the point of the new covenant? What is the point of Jesus dying on the cross and what is the point of him lower himself to earth?? There isn't one, because, from what you are telling me, we must still continue with the ritualistic laws of the old covenant.

If that is the case, then why are we not stoning more people for
Wearing clothing made of 2 kinds of material- say cotton and rayon (lev. 19:19)
Cutting the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard. (lev 19: 27)

What do we do with those random laws in Leviticus??
 

SonWorshipper

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They may not be so random as you may think , or have been taught!

Welcome Shannonkish once again to the MJ forum. I realize your last foray in here must have seemed as if you had walked into a lions den and I do hope and pray that the lions are fed this time and realize that you come in peace!
Down Kitties!


Anyway, you ask legitimate questions, all of which I will not address but save some for others, as you have quoted a mighty lot of scripture, to which I do say Mazel Tov! It is good to see you reading and asking questions, this I believe comes from HasShem himself, as He is speaking to you and putting this on your heart, but your mind needs to understand.

Real quick I will address this, and make the remark that because of many translations of the Bible this is very often misunderstood.

Shannonkish said:
If that is the case, then why are we not stoning more people for
Wearing clothing made of 2 kinds of material- say cotton and rayon (lev. 19:19)


The true translation of Lev. 19:19 is as follows:

Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.

Notice the key words here, gender with diverse kind, and mingled seed or products thereof.

As you can see this has a deeper meaning when viewed as a whole ( I will try and keep it simple) , and it must be taken as such but can be broken down into three categories but retain one meaning.


1.Do not let your cattle "gender" with a diverse kind ( No inbreeding, such as making a mule - G-d did not create a mule did he? He created a horse and an donkey but man made mules, by inbreeding the two species.)


The word "Mule" can also refer to any other experiment by man of going against this rule of the Creator. I am sure you have seen hybrid plants before, while they may be beautiful, they can't reproduce themselves, and they are an attempt to duplicate what only G-d can do.

In Genesis this is defined more fully:

Genesis 1

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
___________________________________________________________

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
____________________________________________________


24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
___________________________________________________________________


Do you see the repeat here? The L-rd made a seed in each and everything He created to duplicate itself perfectly. He CREATED, for He alone is the CREATOR.


So that should explain the cattle part and sowing in the field part in the verse in Leviticus.

Now to the next part, wearing garments with mingled fibers, or is it?

The word specifically says Linen and Wool. Now Linen comes from flax (plant) and wool of course from Sheep (animal), so as you can see we have two different species here and two different days of creation for that matter. So it really isn't any old mixed fibers, but linen and wool.

Now what is the purpose of all this?

As you can probably see it is in MIXING. What was the L-rd trying to teach? Not to mix the different species together. This was, I believe, to teach them many things, a few of which are , that what he made was perfect in plants and animals and not to mess with his creation ( as many of the surrounding heathens were doing, Inbreeding can be dated way back to ancient China and Egypt ) and also to learn about separation. The main thing about Israel is that they were raised up to be a set apart people to the one true G-d. They needed to maintain this separateness, in order to bring about the L-rds Word and plan of salvation to fruition, for the whole world.


But you may say "That was then and this is now, so why should we do that?"


Same reasons, as far as the animals and plants and mixing the two, if this is done it goes against G-ds creation ( and on a bigger scale denying the true Sabbath does the same thing but that is another post ). And secondly the L-rd Yeshua spoke of this as well as the apostles, we who are His are to keep separate from the world, for we are not of this world.


The L-rd speaks of the end times of separation of the sheep from the goats (which look very similar if you have ever been close to one) as well as other separations. Do you know that the word translated as church - ecclesia means "called out ones, or separate ones" a congregation, same as what Israel was called as a people in the OT ?


2 Cor

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.


You can see here that many distinctions are made:

Believers --- unbelievers
Righteous --- unrighteous
Light --- darkness
Believer ---- infidel
Temple of G-d ---- idols

They are not the same kind, see?

Now to your original question: cotton and rayon. Cotton is from the cotton plant (my preferred fiber of all time ) but rayon is a man made synthetic so is not a fiber in the true sense of the word so that doesn't disqualify it from being worn, see? I have done an intensive study on this because I am a Artist that works in many mediums one of which is fabrics and sewing. I make my own quilts, fully out of cotton, both the fabrics, threads and even the batting. But I also design Messianic Tallits and to make them so that they are Kosher (following the Torah) I had to investigate what I could and couldn't make them from so that is why my great detail on this subject.

Maybe that wasn't so "real quick" but when the L-rd speaks to me I love to share!
 
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Achichem

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Well,

I am happy to see someone ask, as it is a very important question all follower of God must(should) ask. And I am sorry but at this moment I do not have the time to respond to all of your points, But I will so time later and will provide you with the replies to each one of your statements (questions).I will correct however the first mistake I see in your view of us.

We do not believe our self under the law; we do not see the law in that light at all.

This is the best scripture to explain our view of the law (of course their may be some of us who think differently):

2 Timothy 3:16-17,NKJV:
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work


We see the law as a tool not a means, but this is often mis-viewed

Second thing I would like to point out:
Israel was the light for all nations ? what was given to Israel is a world standard
More about that latter.


Note this:
Do not dos:
the Dos:
Does that not sound like many of things in the laws?

But where is the holy days? Well that is quite simple, the holy days should have never have been classified as laws, there is a much bigger reason we keep them:

Leviticus 23:1-2, NKJV:
And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, "Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: "The feasts of the LORD, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are My feasts.
Also note that y?shua said he was lord of the Sabbath

They are Gods holy days, many of which are not yet fulfilled.(i can explian that to if you wish)

The spirit keeps the holydays, if it(he) is my master why should I not?

As to your question about stoning people:

John 8:7, NKJV:
So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first."

If you read the old books, ever notice it says ?have their blood upon themselves?.

That means the blame it own them if we stone them, not that we should kill them especially knowing that we should love even our enemies.

Anyways I am running out of time, hope this can help you a little, and sper any new questions you may have, the questions I left un-answerd, you have to wait till I make a full reply.

God bless,
Datsar
 
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SonWorshipper

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Yes, Shannon, DaTsar brought up an excellent point, we do not consider ourselves UNDER the law, but others that see that we follow Torah interpret it that way. We believe that we are under Grace, and that Y'shua paid the penalty once and for ALL ( double meaning intended ) But by following the Torah we know how to walk in the L-rds ways, how to be separate from the world and what is darkness and what is light.

Any that truly have Messiah, and know him, through repentance and faith have these written on their hearts weither they realize this or not that is the Ruach, the Spirit that comes to live in ones heart when they are born again of the Spirit which Messiah taught one must do to see the Kingdom of G-d . Many find that they have been following Torah and didn't realize it until they dusted off that portion of their Bible and read about it.

Many say the Law was "nailed to the tree" but that is a misunderstanding for Y'shua Himself said that He did not come to do away with it and that it would'nt pass away until all is fulfilled,but it is not all fulfilled yet . We are still on earth and there is still a heaven and this earth is still ruled by HaSatan, the True King has yet to reign. And until that time we still need Torah.

If you want to understand how precious Torah is, read the Psalms, especially 119 ( which has the distiction BTW of being the longest chapter in the whole Bible! ) and learn of what Israels greatest King thought of Torah.

oh and What Pray4Isrel said as well, balance is the key, not either or. And that too goes for what to follow in Torah. Except for the Levitical laws that were for the Priests and the sacrificial laws ( Y'shua the final sacrifice) and the ones pertaining to the land of Israel, then what is left should be followed. Not just some, but all , it is not a Chinese menu!

I have attached a graphic that I have put together to demonstrate Matthew 22:40 for better ( I hope ) clarification, please click on it to enlarge, it is here at the bottom of this post.
 

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Sabian

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I do not Stone people because I can find no where in scripture where YAHSHUA stoned anybody. Vengence is mine saith YHWH.
I can find no where in scripture where YAHSHUA punished anybody.

As far as what do we do with the Laws? It is good to study the Torah.
Many things can be learned from Torah?
Apply what it teaches you.
Apply the Laws that you see apply to you.

Question are you a priest with preistly duties?
Do you have the temple to perform your preistly duties in?
Are you a king ? Should you keep laws that apply to kings?
Are you a judge? or part of the Legal Procedure?
Are you the one that orders the methods of punishments?
Do you own slaves? Or have employes?
Maybe you should study what it says about the topic if you say yes.
Me I am a maintance man But there are many laws that apply to me.
Food laws for example.
Law's against stealing.

Try to apply the laws that you understand apply to you , is the best way I can explain.
Some people say that there are 316 laws and you must keep them all.
Well I'm a man how can I keep a law that applies to a woman?
 
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Shannonkish

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I still don't understand, perhaps I never will.

Yes, there is a balance.. I agree... however, I don't understand how you balance law and grace...

What I mean.. Law and Grace are completly different things... the Bible tells us that we are not bound by the law... yet, you are telling me that I am not bound by it, however, I still need to follow it.. logically, that doesn't make sense.

Jesus reiterated certain laws, for example 9 of the 10 commandments he reiterated... and from what I understand through what God has taught me as well as what my professor in my Christian Studies Major have taught is that the laws were not abolished, however, Jesus came to fulfill them. Yes, Jesus did not cast them to the side... however, he didn't not ask us to follow all 316 or however many laws there are either.

The purpose of grace....covers that for us. While, I find that it is wrong to go and sin because of grace.. I don't find it wrong to say that those laws in the old testament or old covenant are simply that... Old Covenant.. When Jesus came to earth and died on the cross he abolished the old covenant and created the new one.. in which we are not bound by the law.. or required to keep the law... this being said... As humans it is impossible for me to keep all 316 laws... or 20 for that matter. My nature is sin... and if I continue to live bound by the law... then I have no hope for salvation.
 
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SonWorshipper

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Maybe bound is an incorrect wording? How about UNDER the Penelty of Death by breaking the law? Those were what most of the Blood sacrifices were for, the breaking of the Law against the L-rd because the penalty for sin is death, we are no longer under that condemnation, the penalty.

Torah is a guide of how to walk in the way of the L-rd. If you love him you will want to walk in that way to please him. It really isn't hard to do, for if His word and laws are written upon your heart then you will not find this a burden. Y'shua even said that His yoke was easy and his burden light. He is Torah and His spirit lives in those that belong to him so that is why it is light, to follow what is in ones heart.

The world makes it hard for they are on the wide road to destruction and want to take as many with them as they can.

Shannon, did you look at my graphic?
 
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Shannonkish

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Yes, I looked at the graphic and it didn't tell me anything I didn't already know.

This still isn't making sense to me. Yes, the word of God is written on our hearts... however, I highly doubt that I can keep 316 or like I said even 20 of the laws in the Old Testament... I have a hard enough time remembering the 10 commandments, let alone trying to remember anything more than that.

It seems that having to follow more laws and whatnot makes it only even more of a burden... for me personally... I would be hard on myself if I broke a law.... and would feel more guilt and shame than anything... it would be more detrimental to me than helpful and would draw me further from God rather than closer to him... because I can't keep all those laws... and I don't attempt to. It kills me already when I sin... and to add more laws to it... I would become depressed and would begin to wonder what the purpose of Christianity is.... because I can't follow the laws and therefore will never be good enough, or earn enough rewards or whatever..

And for that matter... what is the purpose of laws if there is no consequence for them??
 
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Achichem

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Shalom,

Shannonkish, I was about to make my long reply, but then I read your response. You do not need me to explain that yet, it is clear that you have a logical problem with the law and grace. So I better help you get a better grasp on that before I start telling you in length the answers to the questions you gave us.


First,

What I mean.. Law and Grace are completely different things... the Bible tells us that we are not bound by the law... yet, you are telling me that I am not bound by it, however, I still need to follow it.. logically, that doesn't make sense.

Really?
Lets take the analogy of a car.
Is a set of brakes and engine completely different things? Yet would you mechanic ever ask you so do you was brakes or do you want a engine? Of course he would never ask such, because you need both for a car to run. The same is with law and grace.
Of course now you going to bring up Paul and say to be that law and grace do not work together. If you could hold off that for just a second, but keep this idea in your mind, I can explain.

Ok, now we know law justified noone, ever? Only by faith, and in so we know for a fact that law most certainly can work with faith. It was possible, so it must be possible.

Was that not the problem with the Pharisee? That fact that they introduced the law without first having faith becoming as Paul says,


They are the ones strayed, they do not have faith which makes it so they can not see the intent of the law.

This leads me to a bigger question, what is faith?

The simplest definition of faith is: love the lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deuteronomy 6:5-6, NKJV:
You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength "And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart.
Sound like something Paul said? but he replaced the words You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength with the shorter word faith.

They are one in the same, the Pharisee and false teachers did not kneo faith hence they are desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.

So what does Paul mean when he says you are not bound by the law?
He means: have faith and the laws for salvation will be written on your heart.Same as Moses.

Then once that is done, then you can, as it was intended use the written laws:
You are bound to the ones on your heart, not the written one, like circumcision it is not the physical mark that matters but the mark on the heart.

Once again we use the laws for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2 Timothy 3:16-17,NKJV:
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Now back to the car:
The brakes are like the written law.
The engine is like faith.

Can you start a car with only brakes and not a engine? No you will never move. You would be dead, like the Pharisee were.

Can you start a car with a engine but no brakes? Yes, and you will go and start down the path, but you will loss control. The love of many will wax cold

That is where the brakes come in, without correction there is no way to stop or slow down, or keep control of your speed, and one gets out of control. That is why we use the law, not to replace the law (faith) on our hearts, that is the momentum or life.
The flesh is the problem.

The flesh is why we need brakes, it puts obstacles on our way, it makes the ground slippery, which cause us to go off the path and to go off the path of life, is to live in sin, which is death.

So to stay in control, and live in faith one needs(should have) to use the laws, but they(the writeen laws) will not propel them, if one had just brakes, they could never travel G-ds path.

I hope that helps, are you still confused?
God bless,
Datsar


And for that matter... what is the purpose of laws if there is no consequence for them??
To keep us on the path, in the fruits of the spirit.They are profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
 
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Shannonkish

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So... laws about what kinds of food I eat help me how? That is where I am confused... silly, pointless laws that were in effect of Israel and are no longer in effect for those under the new covenant. Why must I keep them??

This still isn't making logical sense to me.. and I suppose it isn't supposed to....
 
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Achichem

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Shannonkish said:
So... laws about what kinds of food I eat help me how? That is where I am confused... silly, pointless laws that were in effect of Israel and are no longer in effect for those under the new covenant. Why must I keep them??
Well, I cannot speak for you,
But they keep my mother and me a lot healthier (we are converts), they are even recommended to people through the medical system.

Did you know in the old days they thought that the plague management was little and unimportant, and it is what saved Europe from getting completely wiped out and is still the basis for plague control to this very day.

So I recommend trusting God enough to a least try out stuff he recommends, like clean and unclean foods, try purging your system of these things for two weeks, eat them after, and I can almost grantee that you will get a sick feeling just after eating a piece of unclean food. (at least that has been the results, so far of the people that took me up on the kosher challenge)

Just because God says somthing is not against salvation, does not mean it did not have a purpose for being said.
This still isn't making logical sense to me.. And I suppose it isn't supposed to....
What are you not getting?
That law and grace can work together?
That faith needs laws to run smoothly?
That the laws are from God?
How why you brake a law your not condemnd?
Why Paul said what he said?
What was Paul saying?
The purpose of the written law?

Here is my last question to you, I understand you have not implemented ones you see have no point, but have you implemented ones that do, ie. the Holy Days?
 
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Sabian

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Can you explain why YHWH gave the food Laws in the first place?

And can you explain how YAHSHUA change these LAW's?

If you can explain why the laws were given in the first place then maybe yopu can try to explain why YAHSHUA would have taken these LAW,s away.

I concider YAHSHUA my example if you can give me an example of YAHSHUA eating pork or crabs
or any other unclean food I would have to rethink my beliefs.
 
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fakemind

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I'm just going to sneak in this conversation real quick...


http://billygraham.org/qna/qna.asp?i=585

The above link goes to a nice page on the Billy Graham page that talks about the Old Testament laws. I think it's definately worthwhile to look at. While it's only four paragraphs, I think it makes good points.

I think Galatians chapter 3 really helps on this matter.

I have quoted verses 19-29 below, which I think are really good.

Galatians 3:19-29 (nkjv)
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.



Hope this helps some,

- Jeremiah
 
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