Steal From A Dead Man?

gmm4j · Aug 5, 2012

Three days and 75 views without an answer in "Ask a Calvinist" so I thought I would bring the question over here to see if someone could help me.

Luke 8:11-12 says,
This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

We are not told that the non-elect unregenerate person rejects the word of God due to his fallen sin nature (which I would understand), but we are clearly told here that the devil comes and takes the Word from their hearts, so they will not believe and be saved. This seems to show that they have the ability to receive the Word, but the devil is actively involved in keeping the Word from taking root. Why would satan have to have a present-day involvement takes away the word from their hearts, so if unregenerate man was totally unable to receive the Word into his heart in the first place?

CalledOutOne · Aug 30, 2012

gmm4j said:
Three days and 75 views without an answer in "Ask a Calvinist" so I thought I would bring the question over here to see if someone could help me.

Luke 8:11-12 says,
This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

We are not told that the non-elect unregenerate person rejects the word of God due to his fallen sin nature (which I would understand), but we are clearly told here that the devil comes and takes the Word from their hearts, so they will not believe and be saved. This seems to show that they have the ability to receive the Word, but the devil is actively involved in keeping the Word from taking root. Why would satan have to have a present-day involvement “takes away the word from their hearts, so…” if unregenerate man was totally unable to receive the Word into his heart in the first place?

Satan doesn't take the seed away against their will. It is still the persons responsibility to repent and believe. The fact that Satan steals it away is why they are unable to receive the things of God.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
~1 Corinthians 2:14

These men will always resist the Holy Ghost because they are lost in their sins, but if God gives them a new heart, they will receive Him.

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."
~Acts 7:51

So God really does have to give us a new heart.

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."
~Ezekiel 36:26

Otherwise, we will always reject His call.

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
~John 6:63

gmm4j · Aug 30, 2012

Hey CalledOutOne,

Very cool. Thank you for working through some of these questions. You said,

Satan doesn't take the seed away against their will.

Text doesn’t say how satan takes the Word from their hearts, but the text does attribute the “taking” to a secondary outside source “satan.” I think the greater question becomes how did the Word get into the heart of a person, who according to Calvinism, is unable to receive it in the first place. And, why is an outside secondary source “satan” needed, or used to take it, if the heart of unregenerate man is UNABLE to receive and believe it anyway.

It is still the persons responsibility to repent and believe.

I agree with you.

The fact that Satan steals it away is why they are unable to receive the things of God.

This is not the Calvinist position. The Calvinist position is that they are unable to receive the things of God due to their unregenerate heart and sin nature, not that a secondary outside source “satan” has to steal it from their heart in order to keep them from belief. Luke 8:12, “Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.”

To support your statements above you rightly point to the nature of natural man and use,

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
~1 Corinthians 2:14

However, here’s a little fuller context:

1 Corinthians 2:1-14
When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.
However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him." 10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You use verse 14 to argue that a person needs to be born of the Spirit before they can initially receive the gospel message “the things of God”, which is a spiritual message expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words, but this is not the case and it is not Paul’s argument at all.

Paul did not initially come to the Corinthians with a spiritually mature message. He only preached Christ and Christ crucified, along with a demonstration of the Spirit, and they were able to put their faith in the power of God. The message for the mature however takes spiritual discernment and the Spirit to lead them into the depths of it. The next chapter reveals that He couldn't even talk to the regenerated Corinthian brothers on that level, they still could only handle the milk.

1 Corinthians 3:1-2
Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly-mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.

Paul is not making a sweeping theological statement about a total inability in every human being or that an unregenerate person does not have the ability to receive the gospel message. Instead, a man without the Spirit must first believe in Jesus,

1 Corinthians 1:20-22
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

and thereby receive the Spirit of God in order to accept, understand, and be led into all the truth of the spiritually mature things of God.

So, this verse does not support an argument that all unregenerate men are unable to receive the Word in the way you imply.

Next you say,

These men will always resist the Holy Ghost because they are lost in their sins, but if God gives them a new heart, they will receive Him.

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."
~Acts 7:51

By “these men” I’m sure you mean all unregenerate men although the text you use is addressing very specific men, “you.”

Acts 7:51-53,
"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him- 53 you who have received the law that was put into effect through angels but have not obeyed it."

And, to resist the Holy Ghost implies that the Holy Ghost is trying to influence these men in some manner. Does the Holy Ghost try to influence non-elect men who are unable and cannot be influenced? Of course He doesn’t. In fact, according to Calvinism, such men are left to themselves. The Holy Spirit wouldn’t try to influence people He knew would resist Him. If He really wanted to influence them, He would simply and irresistibly regenerate their stiffnecked and uncircumcised hearts. Right? The conclusion is that unregenerate men can be influenced by the Holy Spirit, but the Spirit does not irresistibly influence them through regeneration in order to “make” them believe the way Calvinism teaches. It must also be concluded that some can become so hardened that they “always” resist the Holy Spirit. Of this there is no doubt.

gmm4j · Aug 30, 2012

Then you state,

So God really does have to give us a new heart.

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."
~Ezekiel 36:26

There is no doubt that God gives us a new heart, but Scripture is clear that He gives us a new heart, and His Spirit comes to live within us after we have believed and not before.

Acts 15:9
He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.

Their hearts were made pure (new) by faith. It does not say that faith was made by or a result of pure hearts. Pure hearts are made by having faith first. Again the order is:

1.Faith
2.Pure (new) hearts.

Galatians 3:2,5
I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law,or by believing what you heard?… 5 Does God give you his Spiritandwork miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

The correct answer to the first question is that I received the Spirit when I believed what I heard.

1.Recipient hears Word
2.Recipient believes Word
3.Spirit is received

The correct answer to the second question is that God gave me His Spirit because I believed what I heard.

1.Recipient hears Word
2.Recipient believes Word
3.Spirit is given

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

1.Hear the Word of truth
2.Believe (having believed) the Word of truth.
3.Included in Christ / Sealed by the Spirit

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 11:17

So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?"

You receive the gift of the Holy Spirit upon belief, not before belief.

Then finally you say,

Otherwise, we will always reject His call.

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
~John 6:63

I don’t see how any of the verses you’ve presented argue that unregenerate people will always reject His call. 1 Corinthians 2:14, does so the best, but when placed in context we saw that Paul was dealing with the problem of immature regenerated saints and a mature message of wisdom.

Here in John 6:63, I agree the Spirit gives life and the flesh counts for nothing. And, that His words are spirit and life. But again, the Spirit and life come to the person only after the person first receives / believes the word.

1 Peter 1:22-25
Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For, "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, 25 but the word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the word that was preached to you.

The word of God is imperishable seed that must first be received / believed in order to bring about regeneration. Again the order is:

1. Word preached
2. Word believed
3. Born again (Regeneration) through the Word

Jesus’ explanation of the parable of the sower shows that unregenerate man has the God-given ability to receive and believe the Word of God and thereby be saved by it. Even the devil knows it!

CalledOutOne · Aug 31, 2012

gmm4j said:
Hey CalledOutOne,

Very cool. Thank you for working through some of these questions. You said,

Satan doesn't take the seed away against their will.

Text doesnt say how satan takes the Word from their hearts, but the text does attribute the taking to a secondary outside source satan. I think the greater question becomes how did the Word get into the heart of a person, who according to Calvinism, is unable to receive it in the first place. And, why is an outside secondary source satan needed, or used to take it, if the heart of unregenerate man is UNABLE to receive and believe it anyway.

When the word "receive" is used we simply mean that he doesn't accept it as truth. Would you say that an Atheist who hears the Gospel (the planting of the seed) and rejects it in saying that God isn't real was like the man in Luke here? That's what will always happen. He is resisting the Spirit like I showed you from Acts.

It is still the persons responsibility to repent and believe.

I agree with you.

Good. No need to address this then.

The fact that Satan steals it away is why they are unable to receive the things of God.

This is not the Calvinist position. The Calvinist position is that they are unable to receive the things of God due to their unregenerate heart and sin nature, not that a secondary outside source satan has to steal it from their heart in order to keep them from belief. Luke 8:12, Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

Satan is able to steal away the truth based on their own sinful condition. Satan doesn't cause them to do anything that their sinful hearts don't already want to do. Satan tempts unbelief, the heart acts. That is what is meant.

To support your statements above you rightly point to the nature of natural man and use,

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
~1 Corinthians 2:14

However, heres a little fuller context:

1 Corinthians 2:1-14
When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.
However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him." 10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You use verse 14 to argue that a person needs to be born of the Spirit before they can initially receive the gospel message the things of God, which is a spiritual message expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words, but this is not the case and it is not Pauls argument at all.

Paul did not initially come to the Corinthians with a spiritually mature message. He only preached Christ and Christ crucified, along with a demonstration of the Spirit, and they were able to put their faith in the power of God. The message for the mature however takes spiritual discernment and the Spirit to lead them into the depths of it. The next chapter reveals that He couldn't even talk to the regenerated Corinthian brothers on that level, they still could only handle the milk.

The context of this is the Gospel: Christ and Him crucified. It does not go on to say anything about receiving more than milk. The immediate context asserts that the topic at hand that cannot be received is the message of "Christ and Him crucified".

1 Corinthians 3:1-2
Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly-mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.

Paul is not making a sweeping theological statement about a total inability in every human being or that an unregenerate person does not have the ability to receive the gospel message. Instead, a man without the Spirit must first believe in Jesus,

In this passage he is saying that, but the passage above the context is clearly saying that natural man cannot receive the things of God. It does not say that "immature Christians" or "infant Christians" cannot receive meat until they mature.

1 Corinthians 1:20-22
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

and thereby receive the Spirit of God in order to accept, understand, and be led into all the truth of the spiritually mature things of God.

So, this verse does not support an argument that all unregenerate men are unable to receive the Word in the way you imply.

It's immediate context does suggest that. Paul changed topics by the time he went in to the verse I quoted.

Next you say,

These men will always resist the Holy Ghost because they are lost in their sins, but if God gives them a new heart, they will receive Him.

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."
~Acts 7:51

By these men Im sure you mean all unregenerate men although the text you use is addressing very specific men, you.

Acts 7:51-53,
"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him- 53 you who have received the law that was put into effect through angels but have not obeyed it."

I was saying that this is what natural man does. And this is true. Why did those men resist the Holy Spirit? Because they are in their natural state: Sinful.

And, to resist the Holy Ghost implies that the Holy Ghost is trying to influence these men in some manner. Does the Holy Ghost try to influence non-elect men who are unable and cannot be influenced? Of course He doesnt. In fact, according to Calvinism, such men are left to themselves. The Holy Spirit wouldnt try to influence people He knew would resist Him. If He really wanted to influence them, He would simply and irresistibly regenerate their stiffnecked and uncircumcised hearts. Right? The conclusion is that unregenerate men can be influenced by the Holy Spirit, but the Spirit does not irresistibly influence them through regeneration in order to make them believe the way Calvinism teaches. It must also be concluded that some can become so hardened that they always resist the Holy Spirit. Of this there is no doubt.

Calvinism does not teach that God doesn't offer salvation to all people. It teaches that all people will reject the Gospel unless the Spirit quickens (regenerates) them. Salvation is offered to all and all are commanded to repent of their sins and believe the Gospel.

CalledOutOne · Aug 31, 2012

gmm4j said:
Then you state,

So God really does have to give us a new heart.

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."
~Ezekiel 36:26

There is no doubt that God gives us a new heart, but Scripture is clear that He gives us a new heart, and His Spirit comes to live within us after we have believed and not before.

Acts 15:9
He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.

Their hearts were made pure (new) by faith. It does not say that faith was made by or a result of pure hearts. Pure hearts are made by having faith first. Again the order is:

1.Faith
2.Pure (new) hearts.

Here purification means conversion and not regeneration. The Spirit first regenerates, then gives faith and repentance (which is conversion), by which we are justified (ie. made pure).

Galatians 3:2,5
I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law,or by believing what you heard?… 5 Does God give you his Spiritandwork miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

The correct answer to the first question is that I received the Spirit when I believed what I heard.

1.Recipient hears Word
2.Recipient believes Word
3.Spirit is received

I agree. The Spirit does not dwell in the saint until after the conversion process is complete.

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."
~Ezekiel 36:26-27

The Spirit comes in after regeneration.
So the order is:
1) Regeneration
2) Faith & Repentance
3) The Spirit indwells.

The correct answer to the second question is that God gave me His Spirit because I believed what I heard.

1.Recipient hears Word
2.Recipient believes Word
3.Spirit is given

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

1.Hear the Word of truth
2.Believe (having believed) the Word of truth.
3.Included in Christ / Sealed by the Spirit

This is true if you insert regeneration between your points 1 and 2.

Acts 2:38

Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 11:17

So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?"

You receive the gift of the Holy Spirit upon belief, not before belief.

I agree. As I said before.
1)Hear the word
2)Regeneration
3)Faith & Repentance
4)The Spirit indwells the believer

Then finally you say,

Otherwise, we will always reject His call.

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
~John 6:63

I don’t see how any of the verses you’ve presented argue that unregenerate people will always reject His call. 1 Corinthians 2:14, does so the best, but when placed in context we saw that Paul was dealing with the problem of immature regenerated saints and a mature message of wisdom.

Here in John 6:63, I agree the Spirit gives life and the flesh counts for nothing. And, that His words are spirit and life. But again, the Spirit and life come to the person only after the person first receives / believes the word.

1 Peter 1:22-25
Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For, "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, 25 but the word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the word that was preached to you.

The Spirit works on the heart before He indwells it. John 6:63 asserts that the flesh can do nothing, however, man outside of Christ is "in the flesh" and not "in the Spirit".

The word of God is imperishable seed that must first be received / believed in order to bring about regeneration. Again the order is:

1. Word preached
2. Word believed
3. Born again (Regeneration) through the Word

Jesus’ explanation of the parable of the sower shows that unregenerate man has the God-given ability to receive and believe the Word of God and thereby be saved by it. Even the devil knows it!

Here you changed your assertion. Where do you get that regeneration happens after belief? It happens before (see my arguments above).

gmm4j · Aug 31, 2012

Hey CalledOutOne,

Okay, you said,

When the word "receive" is used we simply mean that he doesn't accept it as truth. Would you say that an Atheist who hears the Gospel (the planting of the seed) and rejects it in saying that God isn't real was like the man in Luke here? That's what will always happen. He is resisting the Spirit like I showed you from Acts.

So, let me see if I understand you correctly. When a non-elect unregenerate person hears the word, it goes into his heart, but he does not and cannot receive / accept it as truth (in other words, he does not believe it), and thereby he is resisting the Word / Spirit and he will do this every time. Did I get it? So, if this is the case, again I have to ask, “Why is satan involved?” He isn’t needed. And, why does the text read that satan does this “so that they may not believe”? It does not say that satan takes away the word from their hearts because they do not believe, but so they do not believe.

Then you say,

Satan is able to steal away the truth based on their own sinful condition. Satan doesn't cause them to do anything that their sinful hearts don't already want to do. Satan tempts unbelief, the heart acts. That is what is meant.

Again, based on their own sinful condition, satan doesn’t need to steal the truth away. They by nature reject it. They by nature resist it. They by nature are unable to believe it to be saved. According to Total Inability, the present-day involvement of Satan is not needed for this to happen so they won’t believe. You say, “Satan tempts unbelief, the heart acts.” Do you think satan has to tempt unbelief in order for the heart to reject the Word? Or, does the unregenerate heart naturally reject the Word?

Satan’s present-day involvement reveals that the unregenerate heart has the ability to believe the Word. The unregenerate person may believe unto salvation.

gmm4j · Aug 31, 2012

1 Cor 2:1-3:4
When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"- 10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: 16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ. 3:1 Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly-mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? 4 For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men?

I said,

You use verse 14 to argue that a person needs to be born of the Spirit before they can initially receive the gospel message “the things of God”, which is a spiritual message expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words, but this is not the case and it is not Paul’s argument at all.

Paul did not initially come to the Corinthians with a spiritually mature message. He only preached Christ and Christ crucified, along with a demonstration of the Spirit, and they were able to put their faith in the power of God. The message for the mature however takes spiritual discernment and the Spirit to lead them into the depths of it. The next chapter reveals that He couldn't even talk to the regenerated Corinthian brothers on that level, they still could only handle the milk.

Your response,
The context of this is the Gospel: Christ and Him crucified.
What? No. Look again. Verse 14 is in the context of Paul developing the argument between a spiritually deep message of the secret wisdom of God that only the mature can understand (vs 6 – 16), and a message of milk that the worldly Christian who acts like mere men can understand (3:1ff).

v1. Did not come with superior wisdom
v3. Did not come with wise words
v6. However (transition), Do have a message of wisdom for mature.
v7. Define the message of wisdom for mature (hidden secret wisdom)
v10. Spirit reveals the deep things of God.
v13. That is what we speak. Still referring to the spiritual message of wisdom for mature.
v14.
Two sentences later:
3:1 Brother, I could not speak to you as spiritual, (In other words, I could not address you as spiritually mature and come to you with a deep spiritual message of wisdom). I could only come to you with milk because you are worldly.

Some other things you said regarding these texts and my comments:

It does not go on to say anything about receiving more than milk.

?

The immediate context asserts that the topic at hand that cannot be received is the message of "Christ and Him crucified".

Don’t know how you get that. Your faith might rest on God’s power. The simple message of Christ and Him crucified, is set up as an example of the message that is not of superior wisdom. Again, he made the message simple and relied on a demonstration of the Spirit so they might believe.

It does not say that "immature Christians" or "infant Christians" cannot receive meat until they mature.

?

gmm4j · Aug 31, 2012

You said,
These men will always resist the Holy Ghost because they are lost in their sins, but if God gives them a new heart, they will receive Him.

Acts 7:51-53,
"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him- 53 you who have received the law that was put into effect through angels but have not obeyed it."

I was saying that this is what natural man does. And this is true. Why did those men resist the Holy Spirit? Because they are in their natural state: Sinful.
Yes, natural man does resist the Holy Spirit. It is also true that spiritual man can and does at times resist the Holy Spirit. Because natural man can and does resist at times, does not mean that he cannot yield to the Holy Spirit. Satan seems to know this! This is why the Adversary feels the need to steal the word from the heart of natural man.

Calvinism does not teach that God doesn't offer salvation to all people.

Understood. God offers salvation to all people without giving all people the ability to believe. That’s some offer L If you can hold your breath until I can get it to you, you can have everything in my bank account. Start now. Do you think my offer is sincere or valid?

It teaches that all people will reject the Gospel unless the Spirit quickens (regenerates) them.

Understood. Not very good news for most people is it?

Salvation is offered to all and all are commanded to repent of their sins and believe the Gospel.

Understood. L

Hmmm? Why would I offer you my money if you hold your breath for it, knowing you can’t hold you breath for it? Why would I send you prophets saying you can have this money, send you my son saying you can have this money, send my spirit to convict you that you must hold your breath in order to get this money, all the time knowing you can’t meet the condition and I’m not going to enable you to meet the condition? I must be a real jerk.

Again, if the Spirit really wanted to influence them, He would simply and irresistibly regenerate their stiffnecked and uncircumcised hearts. But as it is, according to Calvinism, resistance is to be expected and the offers are just cruel mockings of unable pitiful creatures.

gmm4j · Aug 31, 2012

Acts 15:9
He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.

Here is your comment regarding Acts 15:9,
Here purification means conversion and not regeneration. The Spirit first regenerates, then gives faith and repentance (which is conversion), by which we are justified (ie. made pure).
So, if I understand you right, the new spiritually born again heart is not pure.

Here is what ARM writes about regeneration:

Nicodemus and Re-birth
Posted 27th March 2010 at 01:00 AM by AMR
From the preceding we see that regeneration is a birth (John. 3:3-8; John 1:13; I Peter 1:23-25; I John 3:9; I John 5:1), a creation (Ephesians 2:10; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 4:24), the Divine creative act of speaking into existence that which previously did not exist, a resurrection (Ephesians 2:1; I John 3:14; John 5:24), the Divine act of giving life to one who is dead in their trespasses and in their sins… Regeneration, exclusively a Divine act, is an instantaneous change of a man's nature, affecting at once the whole man, intellectually, emotionally, and morally. That regeneration is an instantaneous change has two implications: (1) that regeneration is not a work that is gradually prepared in the soul, as the Roman Catholics and all Semi-Pelagians teach; there is no intermediate stage between life and death; one either lives or is dead; and (2) that regeneration is not a gradual process like sanctification.

So, if you think that this newly created heart by the Spirit of God changing the very nature of a sinful person affecting at once the whole man, intellectually, emotionally, and morally is not pure. Okay. What can I say? The new heart is impure, sinful, and desperately wicked J Right?

Actually, this argues the point that you are regenerated only after you have been justified by faith.

Again, their HEARTS were made pure (new) by faith. It does not say that faith was made by or a result of pure hearts. The heart is made pure and regenerated by having faith first.

gmm4j · Aug 31, 2012

You said,

I agree. The Spirit does not dwell in the saint until after the conversion process is complete.

I’m glad we agree that the Spirit indwells a person after belief and justification. What causes you to think this rather than the Spirit coming to reside in a person at regeneration?

Rom 8:9
And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

gmm4j · Aug 31, 2012

1 Peter 1:22-25
Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For, "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, 25 but the word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the word that was preached to you.
The word of God is imperishable seed that must first be received / believed in order to bring about regeneration. Again the order is:

1. Word preached
2. Word believed
3. Born again (Regeneration) through the Word

You said,

Here you changed your assertion. Where do you get that regeneration happens after belief? It happens before (see my arguments above).

Not sure what you mean by saying that I changed my assertion. Where do I get that regeneration happens after belief? I've always asserted this. Here:

1 Peter 1:22-25
Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For, "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, 25 but the word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the word that was preached to you.

You have been born again (regenerated) through the word of God.

According to Calvinism, the Word cannot make an unregenerate person born again. The unregenerate person must be regenerated by the Spirit in order for the Word to be accepted. This is what you have been arguing for with the parable of the sower. So, if this text says that you are born again through the Word, you must have accepted the Word first. So, Word accepted (1) results in being born again (2). Or, born again (2) through the acceptance / belief of the Word (1).

Assertion is the same.

gmm4j · Sep 1, 2012

Hey CalledOutOne,

I just read your bio. It is awesome what God is doing in your life and you're hunger for Him is inspirational. May you be blessed in your pursuit.

CalledOutOne · Sep 2, 2012

gmm4j said:
You said,

I agree. The Spirit does not dwell in the saint until after the conversion process is complete.

Im glad we agree that the Spirit indwells a person after belief and justification. What causes you to think this rather than the Spirit coming to reside in a person at regeneration?

Rom 8:9
And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

This is right. He doesn't belong to Christ without the Spirit. No one belongs to Christ until that part of the salvation process is complete.

CalledOutOne · Sep 2, 2012

gmm4j said:
1 Peter 1:22-25
Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For, "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, 25 but the word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the word that was preached to you.
The word of God is imperishable seed that must first be received / believed in order to bring about regeneration. Again the order is:

1. Word preached
2. Word believed
3. Born again (Regeneration) through the Word

From the passage you quoted I can deduct the truth that you are purified (justified by faith ie. converted) by obeying the Gospel command: Repent and Believe FOR (ie. because) you have been born again. You believe FOR you are regenerated (born again).
That is why I believe the order is:
1. Hear the Gospel
2. Gospel call
3. Inward call (only for the elect)
4. regeneration
5. conversion (faith & repentance)
6. Justification
7. sanctification
8. glorification

You said,

Here you changed your assertion. Where do you get that regeneration happens after belief? It happens before (see my arguments above).

Not sure what you mean by saying that I changed my assertion. Where do I get that regeneration happens after belief? I've always asserted this. Here:

1 Peter 1:22-25
Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For, "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, 25 but the word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the word that was preached to you.

You have been born again (regenerated) through the word of God.

According to Calvinism, the Word cannot make an unregenerate person born again. The unregenerate person must be regenerated by the Spirit in order for the Word to be accepted. This is what you have been arguing for with the parable of the sower. So, if this text says that you are born again through the Word, you must have accepted the Word first. So, Word accepted (1) results in being born again (2). Or, born again (2) through the acceptance / belief of the Word (1).

Assertion is the same.

You must hear the word and are regenerated, then you accept it's truth.

The Spirit regenerates you by using the Word then gives you faith and repentance.

CalledOutOne · Sep 2, 2012

gmm4j said:
Hey CalledOutOne,

I just read your bio. It is awesome what God is doing in your life and you're hunger for Him is inspirational. May you be blessed in your pursuit.

Thank you, dear brother.

May God give us strength.

gmm4j · Sep 2, 2012

Hey CalledOutOne,

You said,

You must hear the word and are regenerated, then you accept it's truth. The Spirit regenerates you by using the Word then gives you faith and repentance.

The Spirit regenerates by using the Word?

According to Calvinism the Word has no effect on an unregenerate person. Remember, by nature he rejects it. He resists it. He doesn’t accept it. He does not believe it. It is not by or through the Word that you are regenerated. The Word cannot be the means by which the Spirit regenerates because until a person is regenerated the Word is rejected. Again, it is only after regeneration by the Spirit that the Word (the outward Gospel call can have any effect upon a heart).

So, what you have stated above contradicts the numerous times you have stated…

These men will always resist the Holy Ghost because they are lost in their sins, but if God gives them a new heart, they will receive Him.

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."
~Acts 7:51

So God really does have to give us a new heart.

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."
~Ezekiel 36:26

Otherwise, we will always reject His call.

When the word "receive" is used we simply mean that he doesn't accept it as truth. Would you say that an Atheist who hears the Gospel (the planting of the seed) and rejects it in saying that God isn't real was like the man in Luke here? That's what will always happen. He is resisting the Spirit like I showed you from Acts.

Calvinism does not teach that God doesn't offer salvation to all people. It teaches that all people will reject the Gospel unless the Spirit quickens (regenerates) them. Salvation is offered to all and all are commanded to repent of their sins and believe the Gospel.

One last time, it cannot be through the Gospel / Word that you are regenerated if you ALWAYS reject the Word while you are unregenerate.

Blessings!

gmm4j · Sep 2, 2012

1 Peter 1:22-25
Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For, "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, 25 but the word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the word that was preached to you.

You said,

From the passage you quoted I can deduct the truth that

you are purified (justified by faith ie. converted) by obeying the Gospel command: Repent and Believe FOR (ie. because) you have been born again. You believe FOR you are regenerated (born again).

Of course from my point of view I see it to mean: Since you have been justified (purified) by believing (obeying)… love one another from the heart… To me the next point in the order logically flows to regeneration in a continued explanation of why they should love one another deeply from the heart. Now that you have obeyed the truth love one another. Now that you have purified yourselves love one another. Now that you are born again love one another. They should love one another BECAUSE / FOR they have been born again by the Word, not that they believed because / for they have been born again. The argument is FOR why they should love one another, not FOR why they obeyed the truth.

The fact is, however, you still have to deal with how an unregenerate person can be born again through the Word if a dead unborn person always rejects the Word. J

James 1:18
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

CalledOutOne · Sep 3, 2012

gmm4j said:
Hey CalledOutOne,

You said,

You must hear the word and are regenerated, then you accept it's truth. The Spirit regenerates you by using the Word then gives you faith and repentance.

The Spirit regenerates by using the Word?

According to Calvinism the Word has no effect on an unregenerate person. Remember, by nature he rejects it. He resists it. He doesnt accept it. He does not believe it. It is not by or through the Word that you are regenerated. The Word cannot be the means by which the Spirit regenerates because until a person is regenerated the Word is rejected. Again, it is only after regeneration by the Spirit that the Word (the outward Gospel call can have any effect upon a heart).

So, what you have stated above contradicts the numerous times you have stated

These men will always resist the Holy Ghost because they are lost in their sins, but if God gives them a new heart, they will receive Him.

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."
~Acts 7:51

So God really does have to give us a new heart.

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."
~Ezekiel 36:26

Otherwise, we will always reject His call.

When the word "receive" is used we simply mean that he doesn't accept it as truth. Would you say that an Atheist who hears the Gospel (the planting of the seed) and rejects it in saying that God isn't real was like the man in Luke here? That's what will always happen. He is resisting the Spirit like I showed you from Acts.

Calvinism does not teach that God doesn't offer salvation to all people. It teaches that all people will reject the Gospel unless the Spirit quickens (regenerates) them. Salvation is offered to all and all are commanded to repent of their sins and believe the Gospel.

One last time, it cannot be through the Gospel / Word that you are regenerated if you ALWAYS reject the Word while you are unregenerate.

Blessings!

This does not contradict what I said before.

Obviously the criminal will always resist justice, but for some it is inevitable even if they try resisting.

They will always reject the Word, unless the Spirit uses it on them. Once that happens regeneration comes, then faith and repentance, then the rest of the list.

This is what Calvinism teaches:
1) Hear the Word
2) Gospel call
3) Inward call
4) Regeneration
5) Conversion (faith & repentance)
6) Justification
7) Sanctification

Every monergist believes this. This was the position of Calvin, Luther, and the Puritans.

CalledOutOne · Sep 3, 2012

Regeneration is a sovereign work of God (Jn. 1:12-13; 3:3-8; Jas. 1:18; 1 Pet. 1:3) a radical work or total transformation (Ezek. 36:26-27; 1 Jn. 3:9) not just an addition...The SOURCE of regeneration is Christ (1 Pet 1:3; Eph 1:3, 2:4, 4:24; 2 Cor 5:17) The AGENT of regeneration is the Holy Spirit (Jn. 3:3-8; Titus 3:5) The INSTRUMENT of regeneration is the Word of God (Jas. 1:18; 1 Pet. 1:23, 25) which precedes and causes faith (Jn 6:63-65, 1 jn 5:1, Eph. 2:5; Col. 2:13)
~Mongism.COM

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