Statues

Leevo · Apr 15, 2015

Starting this post as a discussion with Barelohim.

Barelohim said:
Uh Leevo... You do know that Jesus said, not to make any images of anything, in heaven, on earth, or under the earth. Nor worship them, or serve them, or use them as an idol?

Sincerely IN Christ
Bar-Elohim

Just wanted to be able to give my thoughts.

Do you have pictures of your family in your house? If so, you should get rid of them if we can't make images of anything. All a statue is, in the Catholic Church, is a picture reminding us of who is looking out for us in heaven, the same way you have a picture of someone in your house or wallet. We don't worship them, that is what is meant when it says that, do not worship idols.

Barelohim · Apr 15, 2015

Leevo....I can carry a picture of my wife, grand daughter, son, in my wallet, when I am away from home. BUT it never takes the place of when I'm home, where I can hug them, hold them, converse with them.... And it is to be the same with Jesus Christ our Lord. Since we are to have HIM, abiding and living in us, why would we need a picture, or any image of Him, to remind us of HIM.?????

You Know Leevo, for 40 years Jesus was an historical Jesus that I believed in since I was a kid in Sunday school.... BUT when I came into contact with the Living Christ, and He came, by His Spirit to live in me, and fellowship with me, and teach me, and show me the things He has the in the past 30+ years, and became my LORD day by day. I don't need, nor should any christian living in such a relationship with their Saviour need some sort of reminder on who He is and where He lives.

Sincerely IN HIM, and HIM IN ME.

Bar-Elohim.

WirSindBettler · Apr 15, 2015

I have this crucifix on my wall next to me as I sit typing:

A small copy of this hanging front and center when you enter the room:

A Christus statue on the top shelf of my bookshelf:

And a statue of St. Patrick on the shelf under that:

And I'm a Lutheran.

Barelohim · Apr 15, 2015

Leevo.... These statues of Jesus, Mary, are worshipped, and honored. Some have kissed the feet of these icons, and some many have done so, that the paint has worn from the plaster. This is the thing Jesus refers to. Just like in the days of Israel, when the Lord told Moses to make a snake encoiled on the end of a staff. That when His people got bitten by a scorpion of venoumous snake, they could look at this staff, and be healed. BUT the people began to worship and honor the staff for its power to heal.. And this is the reason the Lord spoke against these, for the reason, they become something of worship..

In the old testament there are many stories where the Lord told Israel to make a pile of rocks to mark some miracle that He had performed for them. And it was for a reminder, that when their children saw the pile of rocks and asked their father what is was for, the got the story. And the pile of rocks was for a reminder.... BUT the Lord could open the ground and swallow a company of errant Israelites, and the remaining company forget the very next day.

Well Leevo, we who have the Lord Almighty living in these vessels of Clay, to work with us, to mould us, to conform us, to change and transform us into the very images of Christ, we certainly don't need images of any kind, when we live and have the real....

Sincerely
Bar....

WirSindBettler · Apr 15, 2015

First of all BarElohim, I'm not Leevo. Second of all, you said, and I quote:

You do know that Jesus said, not to make any images of anything, in heaven, on earth, or under the earth. Nor worship them, or serve them, or use them as an idol?

When in Scripture did Jesus say this?

Barelohim · Apr 15, 2015

And not one of them represent the Living Jesus. He never did, nor yet look like any of the images painted or poured, or carved presented by artisan.

John knew Jesus intimately, Spent as much time as he could with the Saviour..... BUT when He was confronted by Jesus on the Isle of Patmos, it sure wasn't the Jesus, that John had known, when He walked in the flesh...

I had dear christian friend who had led a very tough, rough, bad, lifestyle. And when He received Christ, his past was a great stumbling block to his spiritual growth. He just couldn't believe that Jesus could forgive him because of his terrible past. So Jesus appeared to Fred when he was sitting on the toilet in his bathroom. And said to my friend.... My son, I forgive you, I forgive you, I forgive you! " That is all it took to get my friend over the stumbling..... BUT a few weeks later my friend wanted another visitation like he had had in the bathroom. BUT the Lord told my friend not to desire that......and why? Because the liar, the counterfeiter, could come in that same disguise, and fool my friend into following the false..

Great lesson... We come to know Him by the Spirit, not by sight...... We come to '' See " him, not optically, but spiritually. We can come to understand Him, to comprehend Him, in and by the Spirit, of which we have... He does visit but only if the need of the moment. Otherwise the liar comes.

1 Corinthians 12... We have the Spirit, who manifests the gifts of the Spirit, one of which is the discerning of Spirits... And we had better learn this, or fall for the false.. Timothy wrote to test every Spirit.... It is very important to know the difference.
Sincerely
Bar..

WirSindBettler · Apr 15, 2015

Barelohim said:
And not one of them represent the Living Jesus. He never did, nor yet look like any of the images painted or poured, or carved presented by artisan.

John knew Jesus intimately, Spent as much time as he could with the Saviour..... BUT when He was confronted by Jesus on the Isle of Patmos, it sure wasn't the Jesus, that John had known, when He walked in the flesh...

I had dear christian friend who had led a very tough, rough, bad, lifestyle. And when He received Christ, his past was a great stumbling block to his spiritual growth. He just couldn't believe that Jesus could forgive him because of his terrible past. So Jesus appeared to Fred when he was sitting on the toilet in his bathroom. And said to my friend.... My son, I forgive you, I forgive you, I forgive you! " That is all it took to get my friend over the stumbling..... BUT a few weeks later my friend wanted another visitation like he had had in the bathroom. BUT the Lord told my friend not to desire that......and why? Because the liar, the counterfeiter, could come in that same disguise, and fool my friend into following the false..

Great lesson... We come to know Him by the Spirit, not by sight...... We come to '' See " him, not optically, but spiritually. We can come to understand Him, to comprehend Him, in and by the Spirit, of which we have... He does visit but only if the need of the moment. Otherwise the liar comes.

1 Corinthians 12... We have the Spirit, who manifests the gifts of the Spirit, one of which is the discerning of Spirits... And we had better learn this, or fall for the false.. Timothy wrote to test every Spirit.... It is very important to know the difference.
Sincerely
Bar..

And not a single word of that answers my question. You claim, and again I quote you:

Jesus said, not to make any images of anything, in heaven, on earth, or under the earth. Nor worship them, or serve them, or use them as an idol

Where in Scripture does Jesus say this?

PaladinValer · Apr 15, 2015

WirSindBettler said:
Where in Scripture does Jesus say this?

Fair question; I'm curious to see a reply as well.

Whether one does or does not approve of three-dimensional imagery, it is pretty obvious both are derived from the concept of iconography which is so central to the Incarnation and, of course, the Nicene Creed.

Barelohim · Apr 15, 2015

Deuteronomy 5:8...... One of the commandments fellas.

8 “‘You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

WirSindBettler · Apr 15, 2015

Barelohim said:
Deuteronomy 5:8...... One of the commandments fellas.

8 “‘You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Except you still haven't answered my question. For the third time. Where in Scripture does Jesus say this?

You said Jesus said it. I'm just asking where.

PaladinValer · Apr 15, 2015

Barelohim said:
Deuteronomy 5:8...... One of the commandments fellas.

8 You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

That doesn't answer his question. He asked when Jesus; in other words, the Gospels.

Furthermore, that passage means that all of your pictures are also out too. They are in the likeness of things on the earth below: human beings. All photographs would have been right out in those days, so to bring that Scripture up when openly having photographs is contradictory.

And let's not forget that the Ark of the Covenant had carved angels on it and a bronze serpent on a poll neutralized the poison of the Hebrews who were bitten by poisonous snakes...and each was made by direct order of God.

So really, your use of that Scriptural passage cannot be the correct one since it directly contradicts others and the photographs in your wallet. Clearly, a different interpretation is required, but really, I think the Lutheran participant here deserves the respect of having his actual challenge honored. Can it be found in Holy Scripture Jesus saying anything?

Leevo · Apr 15, 2015

Barelohim said:
Deuteronomy 5:8...... One of the commandments fellas.

8 You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

You make valid points man. We do not require the statues or pictures to grow closer to God, but it helps some, it might not help you. It certainly does help me. Especially when I walk into Mass every Sunday and see our giant crucifix hanging above the altar to remind me that I am never to forget the sacrifice that was made so that I could get to heaven.

I also would like to note, that God commands the making of statues...

"And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Ex. 25:1820).

Note, this is after the 10 Commandments were given.

Why would God command these things, if having a statue was forbidden?

Also, to address what you said about the statues being "worshiped or honored," they are honored, yes, not worshiped. Which is what is forbidden, worshiping these things. Some people do kiss these, not out of worship, but out of respect. I have kissed a crucifix on Good Friday, out of reverence for Jesus. I did not worship that statue, but I expressed my love for the person it represented.

Barelohim · Apr 15, 2015

Uh! Who do you think Inspired the Scriptures, both old testament and new testment if it wasn't Jesus?

Really! You haven't come to that inspired conclusion yet?

Bar-Elohim....

why did the Lord speak about making the cherubim, etc? Because they did not have what we have. They had and needed the physical, for they needed to " see " optically in order to believe. We walk by faith. They had literal swords, we have the Word, the double edged sword.

Leevo · Apr 15, 2015

PaladinValer said:
Can it be found in Holy Scripture Jesus saying anything?

No.

PaladinValer · Apr 15, 2015

Barelohim said:
Uh! Who do you think Inspired the Scriptures, both old testament and new testment if it wasn't Jesus?

Really! You haven't come to that inspired conclusion yet?

That still dodges his question, and is a Non-Sequitur response as well. Can it be respectfully answered?

why did the Lord speak about making the cherubim, etc? Because they did not have what we have. They had and needed the physical, for they needed to " see " optically in order to believe. We walk by faith. They had literal swords, we have the Word, the double edged sword.

Straw Man reply. Leevo's point, which is the same as mine, isn't about need but that your interpretation of the cited passage is contradictory elsewhere, and therefore, cannot be correct.

Barelohim · Apr 15, 2015

Paladin, did you notice it mentions carved, ( or shaped, or molded ).. Since the Lord was not a Lord that could be seen with the optical, they made and had made those images that they considered a likeness....They had to have something they could see, feel, touch, taste, smell..physical. Where the Lord is Spirit. Like Jesus said about the Spirit being like the wind. You can't " see " it, but you can observe its works.... Which is why The Lord made Himself a body of flesh and blood in which to dwell to make known His character and purposes to mankind!

bar-elohim

Barelohim · Apr 15, 2015

PaladinValer said:
That still dodges his question, and is a Non-Sequitur response as well. Can it be respectfully answered?

Straw Man reply. Leevo's point, which is the same as mine, isn't about need but that your interpretation of the cited passage is contradictory elsewhere, and therefore, cannot be correct.

Contradictory? What they had in the physical, speaks to us in the spirit. They didn't learn, we are to.

Bar-Elohim

Leevo · Apr 15, 2015

Barelohim said:
Uh! Who do you think Inspired the Scriptures, both old testament and new testment if it wasn't Jesus?

Really! You haven't come to that inspired conclusion yet?

Bar-Elohim....

why did the Lord speak about making the cherubim, etc? Because they did not have what we have. They had and needed the physical, for they needed to " see " optically in order to believe. We walk by faith. They had literal swords, we have the Word, the double edged sword.

The thing is, stuff in the Bible, is rarely so cut and dry. The Bible, through careful study, because we know that God does not contradict himself, is condemning the worship of false Gods and Idols through statues. Not the possession of one, as a spiritual tool to draw you closer to God.

PaladinValer · Apr 15, 2015

Barelohim said:
Paladin, did you notice it mentions carved, ( or shaped, or molded ).. Since the Lord was not a Lord that could be seen with the optical, they made and had made those images that they considered a likeness....They had to have something they could see, feel, touch, taste, smell..physical. Where the Lord is Spirit. Like Jesus said about the Spirit being like the wind. You can't " see " it, but you can observe its works.... Which is why The Lord made Himself a body of flesh and blood in which to dwell to make known His character and purposes to mankind!

Straw Man reply.

PaladinValer · Apr 15, 2015

Barelohim said:
Contradictory? What they had in the physical, speaks to us in the spirit. They didn't learn, we are to.

Bar-Elohim

Straw Man again. When replying to someone's post, or debating someone else's position, we need to address what is actually written or said, not what we make up for ourselves to debate.

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