St. Joan of Arc

JoanOfArcInvestigator · Jan 5, 2014

I really like St Joan of Arc. She was very brave and devoted to God and this devotion showed in every part of her life. Joan of Arc encouraged her soldiers to love and obey God out of her love for Him and she inspires us today to do the same. I would love to discuss St Joan and would be very happy if anyone posted their thoughts or questions here.
"I place trust in God, my creator, in all things; I love Him with all my heart."-Saint Joan of Arc (La Pucelle)

Rawtheran · Jan 6, 2014

JoanOfArcInvestigator said:
I really like St Joan of Arc. She was very brave and devoted to God and this devotion showed in every part of her life. Joan of Arc encouraged her soldiers to love and obey God out of her love for Him and she inspires us today to do the same. I would love to discuss St Joan and would be very happy if anyone posted their thoughts or questions here.
"I place trust in God, my creator, in all things; I love Him with all my heart."-Saint Joan of Arc (La Pucelle)

I did a report on Joan of Ark my Sophomore year, and she is indeed a great inspiration to people especially women. If anything I'm sure many women look up to her as an inspiration to do the right thing and to go out and do great things in the world.

JoanOfArcInvestigator · Jan 6, 2014

Joan of Arc is certainly a symbol of what they call "girl power"!

Rawtheran · Jan 7, 2014

So what about her excite you exactly?

JoanOfArcInvestigator · Jan 7, 2014

At first she just sounded like she had an interesting life and I really liked late medieval Europe so I started researching her.

Now I really like her because she was very kind, brave, had great integrity and she loved God very much which is why she left home in the first place. If she had not been told by God to leave and save France St Joan would have likely lived an ordinary life in Domremy and it took a lot of faith and courage for her to leave Domremy.

After she left Domremy she had the soldiers change their ways so that they would no longer raid, be cruel to prisoners and swear. She also tried to avoid battles and she helped dying and wounded soldiers on both sides.

Many people loved her but she told them to take their devotion and thanks to God and even though this attention embarrassed her she was kind to them and she said that she was sent to comfort the needy and she was charitable.

St Joan was good leader but she actually had a soft voice and preferred praying alone than having big meetings, she was followed because people believed she was sent by God, she had a charming personality and she would not back way from danger and carried her flag into the middle of battle.

She hated prison more than anything but she stayed true to her faith in God and she eventually faced one of her greatest fears, death by fire, rather than abandon her faith.

When I learnt about St Joan I decided that I would give God more love and obey Him better. I m very glad I learnt about St Joan because of this.

Rawtheran · Jan 8, 2014

Wow interesting stuff.

JoanOfArcInvestigator · Jan 8, 2014

I am glad you think so

Albion · Jan 9, 2014

What do you think of the view taken by some French historians that she was recruited by the Dauphin because of an old legend of an innocent maid leading the men to victory, this being a way to make them think they had a chance after years of defeat?

JoanOfArcInvestigator · Jan 9, 2014

I don't believe it.

Joan was extremely sad to leave her home and family behind. At first she was unsure of how she with no experience could do what she was told to do. She did often wish for the Dauphin crowned and France freed but I think only her Voices could convince her to leave and that she could complete her mission.

As for her actually hearing her Voices, she without a doubt heard them. Here I am not saying that they were real, though I think they were, but that she heard them and believed in them. If she did not believe in them it is unlikely that she would have mentioned them telling her not to jump off the tower (she was trying to escape) and would not have spent so much time defending and describing them or spoken of them In the way she did.

If she had been sent by the Dauphin she would not have had to go to Robert de Baudicourt and be mocked and sent away until she convinced him of her divine Voices. She had to go 3 times and it was surely humiliating, wouldn't it have been less risky to ensure that the mythical Maiden get to the dauphin without making her look like a fool?

Joan over all was sincere and devout, so I don't think she would lie about her Voices so she would look holy.

More sophisticated refutations can be found online and in books, I am sure.

Albion · Jan 10, 2014

JoanOfArcInvestigator said:
I don't believe it.

Joan was extremely sad to leave her home and family behind. At first she was unsure of how she with no experience could do what she was told to do. She did often wish for the Dauphin crowned and France freed but I think only her Voices could convince her to leave and that she could complete her mission.

Loyalty to the Dauphin, or answering a call to service, counts for nothing? Plenty of warriors have had to leave home and family, but thought that they had a responsibility to live up to. And in this case, the future and freedom of her own country hung in the balance.

As for her actually hearing her Voices, she without a doubt heard them. Here I am not saying that they were real, though I think they were, but that she heard them and believed in them.

But there's no way to know if she really heard them or not.

Joan over all was sincere and devout, so I don't think she would lie about her Voices so she would look holy.

To look holy would not be the only possible reason, by a longshot.

More sophisticated refutations can be found online and in books, I am sure.

Perhaps, but what I've referred to is a more sophisticated refutation of the customary, and romantic, story of Joan that we all grew up with. There is a lot to recommend it, even if it were not the conclusion of professional French historians. In fact, it seems much more likely that the Dauphin saw a way to pull a strategic "rabbit out of his hat" than that a teenaged girl was chosen by God to win the war for the country he really liked. Did you ever ask yourself why God would choose sides in a war featuring France and England when both were of the same faith and form of government?

JoanOfArcInvestigator · Jan 10, 2014

Albion said:
Loyalty to the Dauphin, or answering a call to service, counts for nothing? Plenty of warriors have had to leave home and family, but thought that they had a responsibility to live up to. And in this case, the future and freedom of her own country hung in the balance.

Joan was confused as to how she would be able to do her mission at first and was very scared and did not go for a little while after she was called to go. And after that she said she would have rather died than leave her village. I think the Dauphin may have moved on to more willing girls by the time Joan gained confidence.

But there's no way to know if she really heard them or not

No, but I think Joan's descriptions of her voices and how and when they came were too detailed to be a lie. I also do not know why the Dauphin would not spare her the multiple humiliations of confronting Baudicourt by telling him of her summons. Instead Joan went on her own, told her story and got mocked and kicked out. Telling lies about having visions from God would be grave blasphemy which sinful, and despised by Joan of Arc. (She was very upset when anyone took God's name in vain) Joan was genuinely pious and I think she would have respect for God and concern for her soul (accounts from her village say she went to Mass and prayed often to the point of teasing from children and embarrassing attention from adults) Could Joan not have put a nationalistic spin on her campaign? But she did not and accounted all good or victory to God, not France or herself.

Perhaps, but what I've referred to is a more sophisticated refutation of the customary, and romantic, story of Joan that we all grew up with. There is a lot to recommend it, even if it were not the conclusion of professional French historians. In fact, it seems much more likely that the Dauphin saw a way to pull a strategic "rabbit out of his hat" than that a teenaged girl was chosen by God to win the war for the country he really liked. Did you ever ask yourself why God would choose sides in a war featuring France and England when both were of the same faith and form of government?

I am not saying God sent her here, regardless of what I believe. I am saying that she believed she heard from God. I think they would have had to look elsewhere for a girl who would more willingly leave home and be more sure of her fighting abilities, nevertheless one to lie about God consistently. I also think that her path may have been more streamlined than getting rejected and humiliated before even seeing the Dauphin if she had not left all by herself.

If Joan was sent by God I think it was because the people were suffering and the war had gone on extremely long. The war would have been longer and probably bloodier without Joan. She was gentle and tried to avoid conflict by constantly persuading the English and Burgundians to leave France alone, disallowed cruelty to prisoners and raiding and showed kindness to wounded and dying soldiers on both sides. History would have been very different if France had been lost. I don't think that there would have been any way to stop it from being lost except by fighting, Joan tried to reason and was rejected and the treaties often failed to solve anything and made things worse.

Albion · Jan 11, 2014

JoanOfArcInvestigator said:
Joan was confused as to how she would be able to do her mission at first and was very scared and did not go for a little while after she was called to go. And after that she said she would have rather died than leave her village. I think the Dauphin may have moved on to more willing girls by the time Joan gained confidence.

We don't know all the reasons for his choice of a girl. There is some suggestion that she was actually a distant relative of his, although I don't know if that would really matter much.

No, but I think Joan's descriptions of her voices and how and when they came were too detailed to be a lie. I also do not know why the Dauphin would not spare her the multiple humiliations of confronting Baudicourt by telling him of her summons. Instead Joan went on her own, told her story and got mocked and kicked out. Telling lies about having visions from God would be grave blasphemy which sinful, and despised by Joan of Arc. (She was very upset when anyone took God's name in vain) Joan was genuinely pious and I think she would have respect for God and concern for her soul (accounts from her village say she went to Mass and prayed often to the point of teasing from children and embarrassing attention from adults) Could Joan not have put a nationalistic spin on her campaign? But she did not and accounted all good or victory to God, not France or herself.

Sure, but with all the famous mysteries in history, from who shot JFK to who reached the North Pole first, etc. there remain unanswered parts of the puzzle, and perhaps the full story can never be known.

I am not saying God sent her here, regardless of what I believe. I am saying that she believed she heard from God. I think they would have had to look elsewhere for a girl who would more willingly leave home and be more sure of her fighting abilities, nevertheless one to lie about God consistently. I also think that her path may have been more streamlined than getting rejected and humiliated before even seeing the Dauphin if she had not left all by herself.

And I am not especially promoting any alternate theory. But people who know more about it have raised some interesting new 'slants on the subject' that you, as a researcher, might be interested to follow up on, as any investigator does. That's about it.

Vince53 · Jan 12, 2014

Courage, Investigator! A profusión of contradictory stories cannot change the miraculous nature of what happened. I had already researched and written my accounts of Joan of Arc for the Second Millenium thread before you started your thread, and while I don't believe she heard saints, I do believe she was God's answer to the prayers of suffering French peasants.

I am impressed by the quality of your research and have found your articles useful and informative.

Albion · Jan 12, 2014

Vince53 said:
Courage, Investigator! A profusión of contradictory stories cannot change the miraculous nature of what happened. I had already researched and written my accounts of Joan of Arc for the Second Millenium thread before you started your thread, and while I don't believe she heard saints, I do believe she was God's answer to the prayers of suffering French peasants.

I am impressed by the quality of your research and have found your articles useful and informative.

You are perfectly entitled to guess at which side God wants to win any particular war. Personally, if he intervened that readily, I think he would end all wars and end all human suffering--which obviously he does not do.

But the facts in this historical matter have nothing to do with that.

By the way, how did the life of the French peasants improve merely because Charles became king?

Vince53 · Jan 12, 2014

While both sides suffered greatly during the Hundred Years War, the French peasants suffered the most. In my opinión, which cannot be proved or disproved, Joan of Arc was God's answer to the prayers of those peasants.

pshun2404 · Jan 13, 2014

Loved Joan...you go girls....

Albion · Jan 13, 2014

Vince53 said:
While both sides suffered greatly during the Hundred Years War, the French peasants suffered the most. In my opinión, which cannot be proved or disproved, Joan of Arc was God's answer to the prayers of those peasants.

Too bad about all those other people who suffered in all other wars but didn't catch God's attention.

Anyway, people enjoy beautiful legends like this one. The 'Angels of Mons' was a popular story during World War I, you may recall. So, enjoy.

Vince53 · Jan 14, 2014

Okay, Joan of Arc fans (friends and foes alike), here's the beginning of the Joan of Arc series http://www.christianforums.com/t7784060-9/#post64845821

Vince53 · Jan 29, 2014

One reason that Joan of Arc remains a legend is that it's impossible to explain what happened. A hyper-devout Catholic, twelve-year-old Joan begins hearing things, and the controversy over what she heard cannot be resolved.

1) The voices of saints. The Catholic Church at the time rejected this. And why couldn't Joan understand what they were saying at the beginning?

2) Demons. Taught as fact by William Shakespeare, but devout Catholics don't listen to demons, and Joan's life clearly showed that she was a devout Catholic.

3) Demons, but Joan didn't know that. Seriously considered by her Catholic captors, but these voices never denied the Word of God. I'll be getting into spiritual gifts in a later article, but I believe that Joan had the gift of prophesy. Her sayings were neither evil nor inaccurate enough to come from demons.

4) She was lying. Her Godly life disproves this.

5) She was insane. Her brilliant grasp of military strategy, and her ability to analyze and exploit reality, disprove this.

6) She had an ear infection. This is what I believe. Possibly tinnitus, Joan heard sounds, and being hyper-devout, attributed it to a miracle, eventually convincing herself that she was hearing the voices of saints. Blended in with her gift of prophecy, Joan was receiving accurate messages and was convinced that she was hearing from the saints.

Chesterton · Jan 30, 2014

St. Joan of Arc

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