SPEAKING IN TONGUES: Help make this the DEFINITIVE learning thread

Skilletdude · Apr 29, 2010

Servant of Jesus said:
If we interpret the gift of speaking in tongues to be strictly the ability of someone to preach the word of God in a language they do not know, but which the listener does understand, then it makes complete sense to me; I can accept that, just as I believe that God hears even our silent prayers.

But beyond that ....... well, at the very least I am open-minded enough to be willing to listen, learn, and adopt new ideas- as long as they are consistent with Biblical teachings and the urgings of the Holy Spirit.

This ^

And no, an actual gift is not useless. Just from where I see it, this isn't what the bible was talking about when they said gift of tongues. But like I said... I only know what I've seen in videos (that video posted above for example). Never met with anyone IRL who has even claimed to have spoken in tongues. And "tongues", unlike all the other gifts is a solo act. Where all the others are for strengthening the church. I fail to see how, tongues in the sense that it's being discussed here, strengthens the church outside of the individual who received this gift. Sure they're all for edification. But Giving.... Compassion.. ministry... leading healing etc etc etc... you're actually helping or reaching others in some way and actually shows some kind of strengthening of the church. Tongues does nothing for anyone else aside from the person with the gift from what I can tell. And it doesn't seem like something God would give... a piece of heaven on earth I mean. We all will be with him someday so why select a few who get to experience it before? Plus the folks that seem to get this "tongues" don't ever seem to be the ones who need it. Christians who are sad and alone and hurting cry out to God and get nothing. Just the silence of night. It doesn't make sense that God would bestow this gift to one who is already quite boisterous and cheerful and not offer it to those lost in despair.

And just wondering, since it is a gift, I would assume it's usable at anytime? Can you speak in tongues any time you want? All the other gifts seem much pretty permanent and are pretty visible throughout the persons life, whether they realize it's a gift or not. Tongues seem to come and go and it just happens some times (from what I can tell. "Oh I've done it a couple times" "I've spoken in tongues seven times". "Never spoke in tongues before but I just felt the holy spirit come over me and I started speaking in tongues". Plus it seems to be much more acknowledged by the person that they have this gift.... everyone with gifts like leadership, compassion, giving etc don't really even seem to think about it much less parade it around saying "see? I've been blessed by a gift from the holy spirit."

I don't know... seems useless in strengthening the church. Not saying what was meant by tongues in the bible was useless (and it does make more sense that it may be unintelligible by the speaker but understandable to different people of different languages... like to the Chinese it comes out in Chinese and the German, German...). Just this here. But anyway, maybe I'll just have to check out a pentecostal church someday and see for myself.

I'm not trying to spit in anyone bean curd BTW... just curious.

Mathetes the kerux · Apr 29, 2010

zeke37 said:
Mathetes the kerux said:

zeke37 said:

Actually phones as singular has alot to do with it . . . it means that what was percieved was not a marketplace cacauphony that would be associated with the foreign language exchange . . . my point stands.

personally, your point means little to me....right or wrong
as it is not relevant to the meaning of tongues in 1Cor14

As for history . . . I have showed you how, in the normal meaning of glossa, ecstatic speech is one of the understood usages . . .

no, you shared your opinion, one that I do not agree with

I showed you the delphic and pythian oracles . . .

must have missed that one, not that it matters

I even showed you the Testament of Job where there are ANGELIC TONGUES AND DIALECTS referred to in the Judeo/Christian era in question . . .

you did? where was I?

AND YET IN LIGHT OF FACTS OF HISTORY YOU SAY "no glossa only means language" . . .

well...it does...sorry

so I dont know what to say . . .

either do I but copy/paste the scripture..
the whole thought, instead of a line here or there

facts are facts and you dont take historic usage unless you think in agrees with your position.

either do you

At least be humble enough to say "OK it is in the broad meaning of glossa . . . i just dont agree that this is what glossa refers to HERE" . . . but you cant even say this!

because I do not agree with that...it wouldn't matter anyway, asthe text point out what "tongues" means, in the very context...but you take a line here or there and make it mean what you want it to mean, instead of sticking with the thought that Paul is placing there

No I dont think that they all heard it. I think everyone heard a sound, something like they had never heard before,

the sound that they heard sounded like their own home dialect,
so they had heard that dialect before...lol

gathered, some who would be those who would respond to the Gospel, heard the tongues in their languages and were astonished at how the sound that they just heard could now be heard individually by each of them in their own dialect (notice NOT GLOSSA but DIALECTOS) ascribing greatness to God, and the others who would not respond to the Gospel continued to hear what sounded like drunk men to them . . . babbling, incoherance, disjointed unconnected UNINTELLIGBLE SPEECH. Gods power did exactly what it set out to do . . . save those who would respond to the Gospel.

I do not agree with your analogy

AH HA! And herein lies the problem . . . it is what we call PRESUPPOSITION. BECAUSE YOU DO NOT THINK THAT ACTS 2 IS ECSTATIC SPEECH . . . YOU THEREFORE WILL NOT EVEN OBJECTIVELY INVESTIGATE THE EVIDENCE WITHOUT BIAS. Sorry brother, that is because of PRESUPPOSITION, NOT because of hermeneutic. Thanks for admitting tho that your reasons have nothing to do with objectivity.

doesn't matter...it was not what you do, else all of you who are "in it" would likewise hear the Wonderful works of God magnified in his/her own langauge...and all you guys hear is babyl.

you certainly do not use that tongue to spread the Word, do ya?

so, is what you do, the same as seen in ACTS2?
the answer is no...so your point is moot.
argue for your practise, not for theirs.
I do not doubt their experience at all...
I know it was a miracle and I know that it had a distinct purpose....
and that is something that I cannot say for your "tongues"

and remember that I've been there....

Oh contrare . . . I think that they are the same thing . . . the Spirit just used them differently.

lol...we are at an impass.

Tongues being a communication of the soul to God is used to bless those in the church in 1 Cor 12-14 and tongues as a communication of the soul to God is used to arouse the curiousity of the 3000 on Pentecost and impress them with what it is BECAUSE THEY KNOW IT IS NOT NORMAL FOREIGN LANGUAGES and grab their attention for the presentation of the Gospel by Peter's sermon.

as said, weare at an impass...

Click to expand...

you did? where was I?

must have missed that one, not that it matters

Click to expand...

Guess I have a better memory than you (as u and I have been exchanging over this for sometime) . . .

Blessings to you Zeke . . . I am getting off the merry-go-round now

Click to expand...

Mathetes the kerux · Apr 29, 2010

boswd said:
So who is going to interprate all of this? That person must be working overtime

YouTube - 160,000 Received the Holy Ghost Ethiopia Crusade Spirit

I'm sorry, again THIS IS NOT what Paul was speaking of.

This is not edification of the Church.

I would remind you brother, that Acts 10 and 19 dont have interpretation either . . . so just FYI lest you actually malign a move of the Lord (not that this is . . . just be careful).

I am Pentecostal in pnuematology . . . reformed in soteriology . . . and a reserved charismatic in my orthopraxy . . . I stay far away from the excesses that have been posted on here . . . and to point to the excesses to judge the movement as a whole is error . . . or you can be a legalistic knight guilty of the crusades . . . we all know that this is not true . . . so please do not fall into the error of some here who are judging by these little soundbytes.

Mathetes the kerux · Apr 29, 2010

Skilletdude said:
This ^

And no, an actual gift is not useless. Just from where I see it, this isn't what the bible was talking about when they said gift of tongues. But like I said... I only know what I've seen in videos (that video posted above for example). Never met with anyone IRL who has even claimed to have spoken in tongues. And "tongues", unlike all the other gifts is a solo act. Where all the others are for strengthening the church. I fail to see how, tongues in the sense that it's being discussed here, strengthens the church outside of the individual who received this gift. Sure they're all for edification. But Giving.... Compassion.. ministry... leading healing etc etc etc... you're actually helping or reaching others in some way and actually shows some kind of strengthening of the church. Tongues does nothing for anyone else aside from the person with the gift from what I can tell. And it doesn't seem like something God would give... a piece of heaven on earth I mean. We all will be with him someday so why select a few who get to experience it before? Plus the folks that seem to get this "tongues" don't ever seem to be the ones who need it. Christians who are sad and alone and hurting cry out to God and get nothing. Just the silence of night. It doesn't make sense that God would bestow this gift to one who is already quite boisterous and cheerful and not offer it to those lost in despair.

And just wondering, since it is a gift, I would assume it's usable at anytime? Can you speak in tongues any time you want? All the other gifts seem much pretty permanent and are pretty visible throughout the persons life, whether they realize it's a gift or not. Tongues seem to come and go and it just happens some times (from what I can tell. "Oh I've done it a couple times" "I've spoken in tongues seven times". "Never spoke in tongues before but I just felt the holy spirit come over me and I started speaking in tongues". Plus it seems to be much more acknowledged by the person that they have this gift.... everyone with gifts like leadership, compassion, giving etc don't really even seem to think about it much less parade it around saying "see? I've been blessed by a gift from the holy spirit."

I don't know... seems useless in strengthening the church. Not saying what was meant by tongues in the bible was useless (and it does make more sense that it may be unintelligible by the speaker but understandable to different people of different languages... like to the Chinese it comes out in Chinese and the German, German...). Just this here. But anyway, maybe I'll just have to check out a pentecostal church someday and see for myself.

I'm not trying to spit in anyone bean curd BTW... just curious.

We all will be with him someday so why select a few who get to experience it before?

He does not select a few. Per Acts 2 it is a gift that all can have . . . Paul even states he wished that all did . . . not that all will . . . but all potentially can.

And it doesn't seem like something God would give... a piece of heaven on earth I mean.

Hmm . . . yet God does this regularly (remember Paul's visit to the third heaven?). Would not a deeper experience of His presence be a blessing? Would not sharing in someone else's experience of the presence of God bless you? Have you never rejoiced with someone when God answered a prayer? It is the same thing brother.

Plus the folks that seem to get this "tongues" don't ever seem to be the ones who need it. Christians who are sad and alone and hurting cry out to God and get nothing. Just the silence of night. It doesn't make sense that God would bestow this gift to one who is already quite boisterous and cheerful and not offer it to those lost in despair.

K couple of things:
1. You assume that there are some who would need and some who would not . . . which is a fundamental error which spins the rest of what you state. God does what He does based FIRST on His own glory . . . not need (not to mention that needs are perceived . . . He has already supplied our greatest need upon the Cross). AND your philosophical posit could apply to all the gifts . . . why does the small village in Africa not get a teacher . . . why does church remain poor when we have the gift of giving . . . why does not the Lord heal my wife of bi-polarism . . . do you see?
2. You are assuming that all these people are all upbeat boisterous people . . . far from it. I have been going through one of the DARKEST times in my life recently . . . broken and weeping while I speak in tongues . . . my soul in anguish and despair. BUT I KNOW THAT GOD IS THERE. I know that the pain that I could never give correct intellectual articulation to is being poured out and received by Him. Tongues does not do away with the dark valleys of the Christian walk.

And just wondering, since it is a gift, I would assume it's usable at anytime? Can you speak in tongues any time you want? All the other gifts seem much pretty permanent and are pretty visible throughout the persons life, whether they realize it's a gift or not.

I can pray in tongues pretty much anytime that I want . . . but I do not get the urge to be active in a public MINISTRY of tongues hardly at all (matter of fact only once in 22 years). The use of the gifts to the Body is not

pretty permanent and are pretty visible

They are what we call NON RESIDENT. They come as the Spirit provides them. Paul was certainly used in the gift of healing throughout Acts . . . but yet we see that he leaves people sick also . . . the gift was not "permanent" and could not be called upon at will. The gifts are not gifts to PEOPLE individually . . . they are gifts to the Bride/Body collectively (like Eph 4). Tho some tend to be used more in certain ministries than others . . . they are given as the SPirit sees necessary . . . not activated at will (at least as ministry gifts to the church). Private/devotional tongues seem to be the only exception.

everyone with gifts like leadership, compassion, giving etc don't really even seem to think about it much less parade it around saying "see? I've been blessed by a gift from the holy spirit."

A little textual blurb real quick.

The list of gifts at the start of 1 Cor 12 are a little different than other lists (Romans 12, Eph 4, 1 Peter 4) in that Paul uses a variety of verbs in Greek to describe them. One common word is energema, and is only used in this list of gifts (1 cor 12) . . . the picture is that this list is a uniquely spiritual manifestation type of gifts list vs the more "mundane" lists. These gifts are a bit more "noticeable." I would describe them as a bit more ACTIVE in the perception of the work of the Spirit than the others.

One does not shout "Yo that preacher has the gift of leadership!" Whereas one who is used in the healing ministry is quite apparent

seems useless in strengthening the church

Hmm . . . have you ever been moved and strengthened by someone praying for you? Or ever been caught up in the public prayer of someone in church cause inside your soul shouts "YES LORD AMEN!" It is the same thing.

it may be unintelligible by the speaker but understandable to different people of different languages... like to the Chinese it comes out in Chinese and the German, German

Problem is that Paul says "no one understands" (which in Greek is oudeis and means ABSOLUTELY NO ONE 1 Cor 14:1-3), unless they have been given a gift of interpretation. In Acts 2 you have 2 gifts operating, the gift of tongues . . . and a gift of interpretation given to those who would respond to Peter's sermon.

I'll just have to check out a pentecostal church someday and see for myself.

Sweet . . . I just hope it is not a fringe church.

Good denomination to visit, sovereign grace, led by CJ Mahaney. NOTHING IN ERROR THERE (www.sovereigngrace.org) look up a local church and visit. Be blessed. They believe and move in all the gifts regularly and there are no excesses . . . tongues will always come with an interpretation.

boswd · Apr 29, 2010

Mathetes the kerux said:
I would remind you brother, that Acts 10 and 19 dont have interpretation either . . . so just FYI lest you actually malign a move of the Lord (not that this is . . . just be careful).

I am Pentecostal in pnuematology . . . reformed in soteriology . . . and a reserved charismatic in my orthopraxy . . . I stay far away from the excesses that have been posted on here . . . and to point to the excesses to judge the movement as a whole is error . . . or you can be a legalistic knight guilty of the crusades . . . we all know that this is not true . . . so please do not fall into the error of some here who are judging by these little soundbytes.

I just wanted to point that I don't think the gifts of tongues are gone and I do believe they are still with us today BUT what we see here in these video's and soundbytes are the norm and what you do is the exception to the rule of Pentacostals.

you'll find more churchs performing either abuses or faked self induced frenzies than you would doing what you do.

Servant of Jesus · Apr 29, 2010

Should 1 Corinthians 13 be included in the opening post as something relevant to the discussion? It doesn't really describe speaking in tongues and is trying to make a different point, which is why I didn't include it.

Here is the passage:

1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

Note: the NIV translation suggests that the word "language" can be substituted for tongues in this passage.

.

Mathetes the kerux · Apr 29, 2010

boswd said:
I just wanted to point that I don't think the gifts of tongues are gone and I do believe they are still with us today BUT what we see here in these video's and soundbytes are the norm and what you do is the exception to the rule of Pentacostals.

you'll find more churchs performing either abuses or faked self induced frenzies than you would doing what you do.

what you do is the exception to the rule of Pentacostals.

AWWWWW

Thanks B!

I do agree that ALOT of what is happening out there is abuse. BUT I DONT THINK THAT MAKES IT FAKE . . . OR even ILLEGITIMATE. We see abuses everywhere in the church . . . ego problems, sexual scandal, money abuse, power abuse, more politics than the state sometimes, anger, resentment, bitterness, jealousy . . . SHEEP ARE MESSY. We are still bound in FLESH. But isnt that grace? God still comes and embraces us . . . still dies for us . . . AMEN. These issues do not make us any less His people. Likewise, the abuses do not make the gift fake . . . just abused.

Look, if I were pastoring these churches . . . I would bring order . . . but I am not . . . and better yet, the church is NOT MY BRIDE . . . it is God's and it is HIS responsibility to sanctify her (I got enough issues with just my own bride!). That pastor will account for those people . . . and he will answer to God for whatever errors he allowed inspite of knowing better.

Servant of Jesus · Apr 29, 2010

There are so many points being made, it is impossible to respond to all of them.

But two general comments/questions come to mind:

1. does not "speaking in tongues" refer to someone who is communicating in an unknown language to another person, or group of people? In other words, speaking in tongues just to yourself doesn't count- you may vocalize something, but if it can't be interpreted and it doesn't communicate, it's not speaking in tongues. Besides, when you're by yourself, then it is what is on your mind, not what is on your lips, that is important.

2. second point: I think it is important to distinguish exuberant and passionate expressions of your faith from speaking in tongues; they are totally different. So when someone vocalizes something while swaying to the rhythm of a gospel song, raises their hands in a gesture of reverence to Jesus while uttering some sounds, and so on, they are not speaking in tongues. They may be communicating their love of Christ- and expressing emotions- just like someone at a great music concert might- but that is not speaking in tongues!

Mathetes the kerux · Apr 29, 2010

Servant of Jesus said:
Should 1 Corinthians 13 be included in the opening post as something relevant to the discussion? It doesn't really describe speaking in tongues and is trying to make a different point, which is why I didn't include it.

Here is the passage:

1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

Note: the NIV translation suggests that the word "language" can be substituted for tongues in this passage.

.

Interestingly enough, the text does tell us something about the nature of tongues . . . they are certainly supernatural and certainly not of this world as Paul, albeit speaking hyperbole, refers to the tongues of angels.

Even tho it is hyperbole, it is still legit as the concept of angels having their own dialects that differed from humans, and even from different castes and types of angels is referred to in the "Testament of Job." Now this is NOT scripture, but it does give us insight into the common concepts that were prevalent during that day . . . and it makes us aware that Paul is not just speaking hyperbole but is referring to an actual REAL and known concept of tongues of Angels.

Btw, this is how glossa does not JUST mean language as in human dialect, but within its usage includes supernatural unintelligible speech.

In the testament of Job his daughters are given girdles that enables them to understand the different dialects of the heavenly host. As I said, not scripture, but it certainly gives is a cultural glimpse into usage for glossa/tongue.

Servant of Jesus · Apr 29, 2010

boswd said:
I just wanted to point that I don't think the gifts of tongues are gone and I do believe they are still with us today BUT what we see here in these video's and soundbytes are the norm and what you do is the exception to the rule of Pentacostals.

You'll find more churchs performing either abuses or faked self induced frenzies than you would doing what you do.

And that's a point worth emphasizing- you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

If 99% of those who speak in tongues are faking it, but 1% aren't, then that still would be enough to validate speaking in tongues.

boswd · Apr 29, 2010

Servant of Jesus said:
And that's a point worth emphasizing- you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

If 99% of those who speak in tongues are faking it, but 1% aren't, then that still would be enough to validate speaking in tongues.

I was never trying to invalidate but trying to keep in perspective. And I think you'll find most Christians including Catholics and Orthodox believe it's still around but def. not in the manner that is going on in most Pentacostal rings, nor do is it gift of every person..

Servant of Jesus · Apr 29, 2010

So what is real, and what is a fake?

this.......

YouTube - 160,000 Received the Holy Ghost Ethiopia Crusade Spirit

or this:

Rock Concert

Why are those who enthusiastically express their love of Jesus at a church service considered weird, and those who express their emotions at a rock concert, cool!

.

zeke37 · Apr 30, 2010

neither are the "tongues" of 1Cor14

zeke37 · Apr 30, 2010

Now...the tongue that Paul is speaking about, means langauges...languages of men ...
either known (to the audience) or unknown (foreign to the audience)
Paul is teaching them how to spread their message
across all language barriers, into all the world...the (OUR) Great Commission.

we are not to hoard the Word in our own language, like it was with Latin for so many years....allow the Word to spread into all tongues

so, the scenario is set as such....

a multi-lingual society....
a believer has a psalm or song or scripture or prayer to share with the audience...
how do we do so effectively, so all in attendance will understand ?
without causing confusion...
but instead edifying them in attendance to the point where they can choose God.

in this chapter, weread of the negative way...then the positive way...negative way...positive way...
repeated over and over again..and examples given...

so, a person comes to the multilingual assembly, to preach God to them in attendance, but they listening speak different langauges/tongues than the speaker does......

so Paul teaches them the following...

1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

(to prophesy to them, means that they would understand the message given, and accept it as truth/prophesy. That is the Most Important gift)

2For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

(if you speak your foreign tongue to them in attendance, and they do not understand your tongue, then what good would it do?
you'd be speaking only to God, and you were supposed to be speaking to them in attendance...very bad thing

you're in the Spirit...your praying and sharing and doing God's Work...intelligently....but in your own foreign tothem tongue
so what is in your mind, (your understanding) is still a mystery to them...
if they can't understand your foreign tongue, what good are your words?
that was the negative...we are now going to read the positive way to do it.)

3But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

again, to prophesy to them, means that they understand your words...your words become bible truth to them...prophesy...
if they understand your tongue, then you can edify them,
comfort them and give them exhortation

now both...negative first, then positive...

4He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

speak your foreign tongue to them, and only you get it...only you are edified...but, make your speech understood to them so it is prophesy, and they can be edified...edification is the point

5I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Paul spoke many different languages/tongues....
he wished we all spoke as many as he did...that would make the Great Commission that much easier
but we do not...
Paul drives home the point that prophesy (the understood Word of God)
is much more important than merely speaking another langauge....

6Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

again Paul stresses...remember that tongue here, is foreign...

it would do no good for you to hear me speak foreign words of God to you...

unless those words were UNDERSTOOD by you as revelation or prophesy or doctrine, it'd be useless...vain....

the words spoken MUST be understood for it to do any good...
this point is driven home by Paul over and over again through out the whole chapter...

7And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

8For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

9So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

now Paul moves to analogies....
every sound has a meaning...and when we hear a certain sound, we know what it means...
Paul stresses here, make sure that you speak so all can understand you...
otherwise you'll be in vain..speaking to the air...

or as said earlier in verse2, speaking not to men, but to God only...
and again, it is a bad thing if you are supposed to edify men BUT only God understands you

10There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

11Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

so, if those in attendance cannot understand your words,
then you will sound as a barbarian to them...
ok simple enough...

zeke37 · Apr 30, 2010

12Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

edification is understanding...not confusion.

13Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

so, if you speak a foreign tongue (to them in atendance),
don't confuse them with your foreign tongue, even if it is about God...
but pray that someone comes along who knows both languages and can interpret for you..
another believer...another gifted believer...

14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

again, Paul explains the same scenario...
if the words you speak are in an unknown language to them in attendance..
or if they in atetndance just repeated some foreign words that they did not understand,
then even though they were in the Spirit, trying to get closer to God, their would be no fruit...
nothing of intelligence would be exchanged...it would be in vain...they'd be whistling dixie for all they knew, instead of learning about God and coming to Him

15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

this should clench it for ya....this is what we are to do...
if what you do is not like this, then you aer wrong...
praying and singing in the Spirit is done with Understanding..intelligence..

not ecstatic charismatic tongues, no confusion.

Paul goes on....he teaches...
if you don't speak intelligently, with understanding, in alanguage thatthey can understand, then guess what will happen???

16Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

ok...so if you do share a psalm or scripture with a foreign speaking audience,
make sure it is translated into their tongue so that they can understand and come to God and say AMEN...

17For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

because if you continue to just speak your foreign tongue to them,
without a translation,
then you give thanks, but they are not edified at all....spaking to the air...to God only...get it????
repeated over and over again

18I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

Paul spoke many languages...many tongues....
made him a great champion for the Great Commission....
get the Word out to all nations and tongues

19Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

again, pretty strait forward...5 words of understanding are worth more than 10 000 words of confusion.

foreign languages...either translated or not....

20Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

tongues is explained to men...children still get it wrong tho.

21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

this is just another witness....men of other tongues...like English for one.

zeke37 · Apr 30, 2010

22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

this is much simpler than most make this...
the gospel preached in a foreign tongue/a foreign language is a sign....
it is a sign to unbelievers...
so they can become believers...
because that is where a foreign tongue is spoken....foreign...

but whenthat message is understood and accepted, it becomes propesy to them....and prophesy is only for us who believe...
Paul stresses that prophesy, getting gentile foreigners to believe...is paramount.

23If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

the whole church...supoposed toreflect the many different tongues/languages used..

if we all came together from all over...
and all spoke different languages,
even if it all the talking was about God, anyone visiting would think we were nutz...and could not undrstand us at all...because of the multiple tongues/languages being spoken at once...gentiles from all over

24But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

but understanding is another thing all together...
if they here the words in a tongue that they can understand, then that is very good

25And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

yeh....wohooooooooo...
he/she understands the tongue spoken, through gifted believing interpretators/linguist

Now Paul addresses multiple tongues/languages persent at the same meeting...

26How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

edification is most important...that means understanding the tongues spoken...

27If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

one preacher preaches...
and 2 or 3 gifted believing interpreters of langauges interpret for the audience in an orderly fashion......
to edify all the different people who speak different langauges in the audience.

28But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

if there is no one that knows both your tongue and their tongue espectively...then keep silent and pray to yourself....
God will set up another time for you, when it is right.
do not confuse the folks by speaking in your native tongue...
because they won't understand you and you'd confuse them.

29Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

same

30If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

even in the audience...don't go nuts...orderly...hold your tongue...lol.

example...say you get it, but your wife does not...
don't disrupt the church...
teach her when you get home...

31For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

that is the point...not a prayer language

32And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

this teaches me also, on a side note, that the charismatic ecstatic tongue is not from God

34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

specific for them for the confusion that some brought
into that mulitlingual gathering....in the audience trying to explain what was said to each other...
as explained earlier...confusing..speaking out of turn etc...
same gos for men...

36What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

you think that you are the only one that can speak about God?
you think that your language is the only langauge that God's Words can be preachd in????

37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

including these rules here in 1Cor14 about preaching God in multiple langauges...

38But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

some are willingly...tradition is a hard thing to break...

39Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

40Let all things be done decently and in order.

so, we are to allow these foreign tongues/languages to spread the Word....

intelligence/undestanding/edification/learning/coming to God/not barbarian speech...etc.

coments?

zeke37 · Apr 30, 2010

1Cor14 is not about a charismatic prayer langauge that no one understands...

Servant of Jesus · Apr 30, 2010

zeke37 said:
comments?

It is difficult to comment and maintain an easy discussion when so many points are made in one post.

But, correct me if I'm wrong, your main message is that:

1. Biblical references to speaking in tongues refers to speaking in a different language. All the passages in the Bible that refer to speaking in tongues can be interpreted as referring to speaking in a different language.

2. When the Bible refers to speaking in tongues, they are describing the supernatural ability of the apostles to communicate in a language unknown to them- for the purpose of presenting the Gospel in an intelligible fashion.

3. Speaking in tongues, in other words, speaking in a different language, must be done in an orderly fashion, just like any other form of verbal interaction.

4. Any words spoken in tongues must be either understood by the listener, or must be interpreted so the listener can understand. And I would add that this is just like an interpreter at the United Nations who is translating one language into another. That interpreter must provide an accurate translation- so that a second interpreter is able to provide the same, consistent translation.

.

Mathetes the kerux · Apr 30, 2010

Servant of Jesus said:
It is difficult to comment and maintain an easy discussion when so many points are made in one post.

But, correct me if I'm wrong, your main message is that:

1. Biblical references to speaking in tongues refers to speaking in a different language. All the passages in the Bible that refer to speaking in tongues can be interpreted as referring to speaking in a different language.

2. When the Bible refers to speaking in tongues, they are describing the supernatural ability of the apostles to communicate in a language unknown to them- for the purpose of presenting the Gospel in an intelligible fashion.

3. Speaking in tongues, in other words, speaking in a different language, must be done in an orderly fashion, just like any other form of verbal interaction.

4. Any words spoken in tongues must be either understood by the listener, or must be interpreted so the listener can understand. And I would add that this is just like an interpreter at the United Nations who is translating one language into another. That interpreter must provide an accurate translation- so that a second interpreter is able to provide the same, consistent translation.

.

I am not going to respond to Zeke cause he and I have gone rounds with this already. I hope that your reading of the logic and context of the passages at hand will show what I am saying to you.

I do not see any of Zekes conclusions from the Scriptures . . . and if you will allow me I will show you why.

Mathetes the kerux · Apr 30, 2010

Servant of Jesus said:
There are so many points being made, it is impossible to respond to all of them.

But two general comments/questions come to mind:

1. does not "speaking in tongues" refer to someone who is communicating in an unknown language to another person, or group of people? In other words, speaking in tongues just to yourself doesn't count- you may vocalize something, but if it can't be interpreted and it doesn't communicate, it's not speaking in tongues. Besides, when you're by yourself, then it is what is on your mind, not what is on your lips, that is important.

2. second point: I think it is important to distinguish exuberant and passionate expressions of your faith from speaking in tongues; they are totally different. So when someone vocalizes something while swaying to the rhythm of a gospel song, raises their hands in a gesture of reverence to Jesus while uttering some sounds, and so on, they are not speaking in tongues. They may be communicating their love of Christ- and expressing emotions- just like someone at a great music concert might- but that is not speaking in tongues!

does not "speaking in tongues" refer to someone who is communicating in an unknown language to another person, or group of people?

No, it is often referred to as a "prayer" in 1 Cor 14. IT CAN BE what is above, but according to the gist of 1 Cor 14, is most commonly a prayer or praise to God.

In other words, speaking in tongues just to yourself doesn't count- you may vocalize something, but if it can't be interpreted and it doesn't communicate, it's not speaking in tongues.

Not at all, Paul gives the provision for continuing to speak in tongues even w/o an interpreter SILENTLY between the practioner and God

1 Cor 14:27-29
27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; 28 but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.
NASU

. . . tongues, if it is primarily prayer, is tongues regardless if it is interpreted or not. It does not ontologically change if it is not interpreted . . . it is still a prayer or praise to God or even perhaps a message to people somewhat seldomly.

Mind you, Acts 10 and 19 BOTH lack interpretation . . . yet it is still considered tongues . . . and is even referred to as the sign that God has accepted the Gentiles in Acts 10.

Besides, when you're by yourself, then it is what is on your mind, not what is on your lips, that is important.

No, because there is a third element . . . what is in your being that is beyond mind or word. The knowing the surpasses knowledge or comprehension (Eph 3:17-19, Phil 4:7).

I think it is important to distinguish exuberant and passionate expressions of your faith from speaking in tongues; they are totally different. So when someone vocalizes something while swaying to the rhythm of a gospel song, raises their hands in a gesture of reverence to Jesus while uttering some sounds, and so on, they are not speaking in tongues.

Not according to Paul . . . this to is singing in tongues . . . blessing in tongues.

1 Cor 14:13-16
13 Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also. 16 Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the "Amen" at your giving of thanks,
NASU

These exhuberant spontaneous expressions are legitimately referred to as tongues and its corporate usage.

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