Something I need to get off my chest about the whole creation/evolution thing.

MKJ · Oct 27, 2014

~Cassia~ said:
Unfortunately a ban has prevented his further discussion. I thought he had some good points also. Being overly passionate about things can cause problems tho.

Well, I have to disagree that he had any good points. Some of the people he quoted are very interesting and important thinkers, and they have interesting things to say.

But I am pretty sure he doesn't actually understand them.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Oct 27, 2014

MKJ said:
Well, I have to disagree that he had any good points. Some of the people he quoted are very interesting and important thinkers, and they have interesting things to say.

But I am pretty sure he doesn't actually understand them.

I wasn't following close enough to give an opinion I guess. I just saw some things he posted as noteworthy, not whether he or others were the actual quote.
*tries not to get into a discussion of mod descisions*

Fireinfolding · Oct 27, 2014

I found his posts put in for some interesting discussion myself.

Targaryen · Oct 27, 2014

Fireinfolding said:
I found his posts put in for some interesting discussion myself.

I'm sure that would be the case if you wish to shut off rational,sober logical thinking and rely solely on pointed, emotional, illogical processes.

I prefer to deal in the former, rather then the latter.

Fireinfolding · Oct 27, 2014

LiberalAnglicanCatholic said:
I'm sure that would be the case if you wish to shut off rational,sober logical thinking and rely solely on pointed, emotional, illogical processes.

I prefer to deal in the former, rather then the latter.

What?

n2thelight · Nov 1, 2014

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

There are two bodies mentioned in this verse; the heaven and the earth. It simply stated a fact and left the time factor out. The verse not only did not say when, but left it totally to our imagination, as to the eternal span of time, and how the creation took place.

Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep."

Who is that Spirit of God? He is the Holy Spirit, and it is God's Spirit that moved upon the face of the waters.

In the Hebrew translation of the word, "was", as used in this verse "...the earth was without form,..."; in the original text it reads "became without form...". This same mistranslation of the word "became", and turning it into the word "was" is also present in Genesis 2:7. It should read there; "..and man became a living soul."

The correct Hebrew translation from the Massoretic Hebrew text for the words, "without form" is "tohu-va bohu" in the Hebrew Strong's dictionary. So we see that the earth was not "created without form", but it "became [tohu] without form and void". Lets go to Strong's Hebrew dictionary, reference number 1961 to verify the word "was", that we read in this verse. "Yahah, haw-yaw; a prime root, to exit; to become, or come to pass." [#1961]

Now lets continue in the Strong's Hebrew dictionary to get the true meaning for the word "void". # 2258, on page 36 tells us that we have to go to # 2254 for the prime on the meaning of this word "void". # 2254; "Chabal, khaw-bal; to wind tightly as a rope, to bind, to pervert, destroy, to corrupt, spoil, travail," This corresponds with its other use in # 2255, which reads; "to ruin".

"Tohu" of the earth, then means that total destruction had come to pass upon the earth. The second "was" in the verse is in italics type because there is no verb "to be" in the Hebrew language. One of the problems in translating the Hebrew into English is that the verb, "to be" is not distinguished from the verb, "to become".

At the end of Genesis 1:1 the first earth age ceased to exist in its previous form. God created the earth to be inhabited, and then He destroyed it. There was an entire earth age that existed between verses one and two of Genesis. This first earth age is spoken of in II Peter, Jeremiah, Proverbs, and Jude. We will look into these Scripture passages and try to understand the deeper meaning of our Father's Word.

If you don't understand that there was a first earth age, you will not understand why God would say in Malachi 1:3; "And I hated Esau...". God hated Esau even while he was in his mother's womb. It was in the first earth age that God hated Esau, because of what Esau did in that first earth age. It was what Esau's soul did in that age that so angered God; and that anger passed on to the embryo of Esau, when his soul entered into this earth age. See also Romans 9:13.

This verse, then, does verify the fact that our earth is older than 6,000 years old. To be more exact, it's probably many millions of years old. However, no matter how old this earth is, it is the only place we can live on in the flesh and survive. We do not worship God's creation; we are to worship the creator, our Heavenly Father. God is in control of all of His creation, and He destroyed all forms of life that lived on the earth from the first earth age.

In Isaiah 45:18; "For thus saith the Lord That created the heavens; God Himself That formed the earth and made it; He hath established it He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: "I am the Lord; and there is none else."

This is God speaking as Isaiah is writing it down, and He is telling us that when He created the earth, it was not in vain. "Vain" is the same Hebrew word that we saw in Genesis 1:2, which was given as "void". God created this earth to be lived on, and to be inhabited. Genesis 1:1 told us that God created the earth to be inhabited. The "Tohu", the "destruction", was not part of the creation plan of verse one, but came after the fall of Satan when one third of all the souls followed Satan in the first earth age, in verse two.

We find more documentation concerning the first earth age in II Peter 3. In fact we can read of all three earth ages, as Peter becomes a witness to the fact.

II Peter 3:5; "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:"
The earth came about by "the word of God", God's speech. Some ministers preach that this was Noah's flood, well let's see.

II Peter 3:6; "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:"

Perished means total destruction. "The world [age] that then was" ended in total ruin through another flood that was prior to Noah's day. There were no survivors of that flood; no animals, no man, no insects, nor vegetation survived in any form. Everything perished! We know in Noah's flood that two of all life forms were saved.
When you drive out on the highway today, and look at the road cutaways, you can see the layers that the ages and time have formed over the eons of years. You say this earth is 6000 years? Even a child should know better than that.

II Peter 3:7; "But the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are dept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

This is the second heaven and earth age which we are living in now. This earth age will not be destroyed until God's time of judgment on the ungodly men of this earth age comes to a close. that time of perdition [destruction] is after the millennium, and after the judgment. Then will come the consuming fire. Hebrews 12:19 tells us that our God is that consuming fire.

II Peter 3:8; "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

One week is 7000 years, and we are coming to the Sabbath of that week very shortly, which the common name for the next thousand years is "the Millennium age". The Millennium age is the thousand years after Jesus Christ returns to earth at the seventh trumpet to establish his kingdom here on earth. All souls at that time will not be in the flesh bodies, but in another dimension. They will exist in their incorruptible bodies, spoken of in I Corinthians 15:50-54.

II Peter 3:9; "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

That means that you can count on our Heavenly Father concerning His promises. God has much patience concerning His children. It isn't God's will that any soul should perish. God did not even intend for Satan to perish, as stated in Ezekiel 28, but that doesn't mean God will not bring about the perishing of souls; for it is up to the soul to choose. That is what our free will is all about.

II Peter 3:10; "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

"A thief in the night" is an figure of speech meaning that Christ will come at an unexpected time. This sounds like a scary time, but what does it say in in the original text, being translated to English? The "elements" are all the "rudiments"; that is the evil spirits, all evil men are part of those rudiments, as well as all forms of idolatry. They will all burn at their appointed time. These elements are not the elements that go to make up the physical properties of this earth. This is addressed only to those things that offend our Heavenly Father.

So we have witnessed in II Peter 3 that there are three earth ages, and three heaven ages that correspond with the earth age periods of time. We see also in Jeremiah 4 that there is another witness to the fact of these three earth ages.

Jeremiah 4:22; "For My people is foolish, they have not known Me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge."

Jeremiah 4:23; "I beheld the earth, and, lo it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light."

Here we get back to the same word that we saw earlier in Genesis 1:2; The Hebrew word "Tohu" for "void". In other words, God is saying, "I destroyed the first heaven and earth age." There simply was no life form existing on this earth at the close of the first earth age in any form.

Jeremiah 4:24; "I beheld the mountains, and lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly."

.
Jeremiah 4:25; "I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled."

Did you get that? No man, no animals, and not even the birds were left alive. The earth was covered with water, and life could not exist. There was no boat floating around on the surface, for the span of time could have been for thousands of years, or a much greater time.

Jeremiah 4:26; "I beheld, and lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by His fierce anger."

In this flood there wasn't a tree or a blade of grass left with life in it. However, what about these "cities" that once existed? Yes there were cities at that time, and God's anger and fury against Satan, and the third of God's children that followed Satan, caused God to destroy that entire earth age, and all that was part of it.

That is what God meant in Hebrews 11:7 when He said, "I shook her once and know I'll shake her again." The only thing that will be left standing then, is that which is unshakeable, and it will only be those who have repented, and have Jesus Christ in their heart. They are those souls that were sealed in their minds, and did not bow to the Antichrist, his system, or take his name, nor his number.

Jeremiah 4:27; "For thus hath the Lord said, "The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end."

God allowed the waters of the first earth age to recede, and from it came a condition whereby we can live in this second earth age. Each soul, or God's child, will pass through this flesh earth age once, and we have the choice to chose either light or darkness; Jesus Christ or Satan. When God created each soul and gave it free will, He cannot force that soul to love Him. You cannot buy love, or it will be a false love. God is looking for your tender love; from within your free soul. It is your choice.

So we have documented from the Bible that there was an earth age prior to this earth age we now live in. God created that first earth age in good standing to be inhabited, as it was written in Isaiah 45:18; then after this it became "without form and void" [in the Hebrew, "Tohu va bohu"].

Why? Because Satan brought sin into the world of that first earth age. and that sin was so great that one third of all God's children followed Satan, and that sin brought God's anger upon the whole world. It was then that Satan was sentenced to the death of his soul. This is why Satan is called the "son of perdition" in II Thessalonians 2:3, and John 17:12. Satan refused to repent, as God allowed him the time to get right with Him.

Verse three starts after the first earth age, after the overthrow by Satan [The Chabal], and after the total destruction of the first earth age and all life forms on it

genesis1

BobRyan · Nov 1, 2014

anewman1993 said:
I posted this on another site, but thought it would fit here as well.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I feel like some stuff really needs to be said about this, because we as a church as a whole keep wanting to follow the "well we need to agree to disagree" concept on this issue, and its not some small issue like the color of the carpet that we need to just push to the side.Thats not how the bible tells of to treat false teaching (and the fact is, both sides can't be right, which means at least one is false teaching). This is as big issue, and I'll explain why.

Ultimately, this is NOT an issue on if god created the earth in 7 days vs millions of years. This is not an issue that just has to do with "is science right", its not just an issue of "well, thats just an interpretation of the bible", its an issue of trust.

Do you trust Yahweh?

We have two sides of this. On the on one side, we have the word of God. It says that the earth was created in 6 days by God(on the 7th he rested).

On the other side we have "science". Saying, well frankly science says a whole lot of different stuff,

...

When you say your are a christian and you tell me you believe in evolution, it tells me something immediately, you do not trust god. You can argue with me all you want but the fact is the bible says everything was made in 6, not through millions of years. ...

The choice is yours, you can trust in the creator of the universe, a god perfectly just and full of love, for you, so much that he DIED for you, a god who is perfect. OR you can trust in mans attempt to understand the world around us. However you can't put your trust in both.

Genesis 2:4

> This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.

Excellent post.

A few other points to add to it.

1. No one - not atheists, not evolutionists, not Christians claim that Moses was trying to instruct the freed-slaves of Sinai in the doctrine of Darwinian evolutionism. So we start off knowing that the writer of Gen 1:2-2:3 had no intention of teaching a doctrine of Darwin that would not even exist for 4000 years.

2. The Genesis 1:2-2:3 text is summarized by God "in stone" in legal code in Ex 20:11

"For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

Almost every Christian scholar on the planet admits that the legal code presented is not attempting to base its argument on fiction, on myth, because legal code in the actual Bible never does that.

3. The entire "God is Love" argument begins in Genesis 1 -with God creating all life on earth - fully formed and in such a short time span as 6 days - that there is no time at all for life to arrive via long ages of predation, starvation, disease, evolutionism-like-stories.

4. The fall of man and the Gospel plan of salvation requires the perfect sinless - start as God describes it in Genesis 1-2. otherwise God would be unjust, unloving and deceptive to tell "a story " of such a perfect start and fall - when in reality what happens is ages long death, predation, competition, starvation - then some hominid in a cave "thinks a bad thought" so then all mankind is doomed to hell unless God offers to die for them.

5. The miracle of the virgin birth and resurrection of Christ is no more "believable" by atheist evolutionists than is 6 day creation.

6. The "incentive" to wrench/bend the 7 day week of Genesis 1:2-2:3 into "long ages - billions of years" is not driven by the content of the text itself. It is driven solely by an external-to-the-text and external-to-Moses agenda to merge blind faith evolutionism with the Bible. Nothing else.

That is isogesis - not exegesis.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Nov 1, 2014

n2thelight said:
Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

There are two bodies mentioned in this verse; the heaven and the earth. It simply stated a fact and left the time factor out. The verse not only did not say when, but left it totally to our imagination, as to the eternal span of time, and how the creation took place.

Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep."
...

At the end of Genesis 1:1 the first earth age ceased to exist in its previous form. God created the earth to be inhabited, and then He destroyed it. There was an entire earth age that existed between verses one and two of Genesis. This first earth age is spoken of in II Peter, Jeremiah, Proverbs, and Jude. We will look into these Scripture passages and try to understand the deeper meaning of our Father's Word.

If you don't understand that there was a first earth age, you will not understand why God would say in Malachi 1:3; "And I hated Esau...". God hated Esau even while he was in his mother's womb. It was in the first earth age that God hated Esau, because of what Esau did in that first earth age.

The doctrinal error you propose requires a lot of isogesis out of thin air - inserting many things into the text that simply are not there.

Here is a good example of Genesis 1:1 does NOT say

"At the end of Genesis 1:1 the first earth age ceased to exist in its previous form. God created the earth to be inhabited, and then He destroyed it. "

To get to that - we would need to "quote you" not Genesis 1:1.

On day 4 of Genesis 1 - there are "TWO great lights made" -- the sun and the moon.

The "insert" you propose for Genesis 1:1 before the sun - is not a valid insert into the chapter.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Nov 1, 2014

Time4Truth said:
"Nine-tenths of the talk of evolutionists is sheer nonsense, not founded on observation and wholly unsupported by facts. This museum is full of proofs of the utter falsity of their views. In all this great museum, there is not a particle of evidence of the transmutation of species." (Dr. Etheridge, Paleontologist of the British Museum)

"I reject evolution because I deem it obsolete; because the knowledge, hard won since 1830, of anatomy, histology, cytology, and embryology, cannot be made to accord with its basic idea. The foundationless, fantastic edifice of the evolution doctrine would long ago have met with its long- deserved fate were it not that the love of fairy tales is so deep-rooted in the hearts of man." (Dr. Albert Fleischmann, University of Erlangen)

"The more one studies paleontology, the more certain one becomes that evolution is based on faith alone; exactly the same sort of faith which is necessary to have when one encounters the great mysteries of religion... The only alternative is the doctrine of special creation, which may be true, but is irrational." (Dr. L.T. More)

"I have come to the conclusion that Darwinism is not a testable scientific theory, but a metaphysical research programme... (Dr. Karl Popper, German-born philosopher of science, called by Nobel Prize-winner Peter Medawar, "incomparably the greatest philosopher of science who has ever lived.")

"Once we see, however, that the probability of life originating at random is so utterly minuscule as to make it absurd, it becomes sensible to think that the favorable properties of physics, on which life depends, are in every respect DELIBERATE... It is therefore, almost inevitable that our own measure of intelligence must reflect higher intelligences.. even to the limit of God." (Sir Fred Hoyle, British mathematician and astronomer, and Chandra Wickramasinghe, co-authors of "Evolution from Space," after acknowledging that they had been atheists all their lives)

"The fossil record with its abrupt transitions offers no support for gradual change..." (Dr. Stephen Jay Gould, famous Harvard Professor of Paleontology)

Thanks for sharing that!

Nice!

in Christ,

Bob

Melethiel · Nov 1, 2014

BobRyan said:
The doctrinal error you propose requires a lot of isogesis out of thin air - inserting many things into the text that simply are not there.

Here is a good example of Genesis 1:1 does NOT say

"At the end of Genesis 1:1 the first earth age ceased to exist in its previous form. God created the earth to be inhabited, and then He destroyed it. "

To get to that - we would need to "quote you" not Genesis 1:1.

On day 4 of Genesis 1 - there are "TWO great lights made" -- the sun and the moon.

The "insert" you propose for Genesis 1:1 before the sun - is not a valid insert into the chapter.

in Christ,

Bob

It's "eisegesis." "Isogesis" is not a word and etymologically makes no sense. At least get the terms right.

BobRyan · Nov 1, 2014

eisegesis was missing from my spell checker - it is added.

n2thelight · Nov 1, 2014

BobRyan said:
The doctrinal error you propose requires a lot of isogesis out of thin air - inserting many things into the text that simply are not there.

Here is a good example of Genesis 1:1 does NOT say

"At the end of Genesis 1:1 the first earth age ceased to exist in its previous form. God created the earth to be inhabited, and then He destroyed it. "

To get to that - we would need to "quote you" not Genesis 1:1.

On day 4 of Genesis 1 - there are "TWO great lights made" -- the sun and the moon.

The "insert" you propose for Genesis 1:1 before the sun - is not a valid insert into the chapter.

in Christ,

Bob

Not just Gen 1,but here a little there a little...Fits like a puzzle to me,and from this the Word has opened up,and I understand it completly,meaning,the whole plan of my Father...

Our Father's Word must be taken as a whole........

Something I need to get off my chest about the whole creation/evolution thing.

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Something I need to get off my chest about the whole creation/evolution thing.

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