Something Deeper than God

relaxeus · Aug 12, 2006

Perhaps there is something even greater and deeper than even God. This something may be what God and we ourselves may actually be dependant on. Maybe there are a set of rules that govern the way things are. This set of rules may not be changed by any powers, neither by ourselves or even beings of greater strength such as God. These rules are everlasting and unbreakable. They will exist forever and will apply everywhere across all of space so that every single particle of matter must abide by these rules, even God.

Perhaps the nature of these rules is such that they change. They may change in such a way that the existence of living beings will no longer be possible, and every living being, including the most powerful beings such as God, will instantly cease to exist.

Perhaps the nature of these rules is beyond study because no living being has the power to study them. They may exist on a level that is beyond any living beings reach. No microscope or mathematical equation is able to reveal its secrets, no matter how powerful the lenses are and no matter how brilliant the mathematical equation is. They are simply out of our reach, and try as we might, we will never be able to understand them. These rules would remain a mystery to us for as long as we would exist, and they would also remain a mystery to God. As powerful as God is, even he would not know what these rules are or what their nature is.

This set of rules may not have been created by any living being. Instead, these rules simply took their form because there was no other possibility. In the same way that a 6 sided dice with the numbers from 1-6 can never land a 7, so too these rules must have took their shape because there was no other form they could have had.

Thoughts?

SedjmNeter · Aug 12, 2006

P.E.A.C.E and Blessings Relaxeus...

...very interesting.

2 things:

The Gods do indeed exist within something far greater and deeper than themselves. They are vessels for which that something can come into the UNIverse.

and...

This set of rules may not have been created by any living being. Instead, these rules simply took their form because there was no other possibility. In the same way that a 6 sided dice with the numbers from 1-6 can never land a 7, so too these rules must have took their shape because there was no other form they could have had.

The fact that the dice can not land on 7, isn't that inforced by a rule? So these Laws or Rules you speak of came into existence because of another Law. Ho did that Law come into existence?

SHEM HETEP (I GO IN P.E.A.C.E)

Sedjm Neter
AKA 5 ElohMental

relaxeus · Aug 12, 2006

SedjmNeter said:
The fact that the dice can not land on 7, isn't that inforced by a rule?

Not necessarily. It may be possible that these rules are not dependant on anything else because these rules may be formed at the deepest level of existence, being the foundation for everything else but having no foundation themselves. They may simply be the way the way they are because that is their nature.

Blackguard_ · Aug 13, 2006

Thoughts?

Ther being rules an all-powerfull God can;t change and an all-knowing wise one can;t understand, and God isn't self existant? crazy talk. Liberals might agree partially with you though, and those who beleive God is contrained by Logic.

What sort of "rules" do you have in mind? Logical? Scientific? Mathmatical? or something akin to Fate?

bt_st_At · Aug 13, 2006

Blackguard_ said:
Ther being rules an all-powerfull God can;t change and an all-knowing wise one can;t understand, and God isn't self existant? crazy talk. Liberals might agree partially with you though, and those who beleive God is contrained by Logic.

What sort of "rules" do you have in mind? Logical? Scientific? Mathmatical? or something akin to Fate?

A thnk the whole idea is that these rules are so above our understanings that we have no way of even comprehending the basis of them.

I often think about this myself I mean what if God isn't the only being in existence that decided to create a universe. There could be other universes out there with their own God and beyond the veil of our universe....What beyond our universe!! Another universe, nah, to risky what if one runs into the other...There must be space between them right that would only make sense but what is is called...I mean can the universe be in?! Oh my god I have to make up a word, quick what the latin word for between....I've got it!! Interuniversitas copyright 2006 ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

Interuniversitas: (pronoun) Referring to that which contains the universe and/or universes

My god I bet I'd win the Nobal Piece prizes...One guy did for colorizing the moon I can for making up a word!!!

relaxeus · Aug 13, 2006

Blackguard_ said:
Ther being rules an all-powerfull God can;t change and an all-knowing wise one can;t understand, and God isn't self existant? crazy talk.

Perhaps God is not all-powerful and not all-knowing as you say he is. Maybe God uses much of his time trying to figure out this mystery, but will never be able to. He would be at the mercy of these rules like every other being and particle would be.

angela 2 · Aug 13, 2006

relaxeus said:
Perhaps God is not all-powerful and not all-knowing as you say he is. Maybe God uses much of his time trying to figure out this mystery, but will never be able to. He would be at the mercy of these rules like every other being and particle would be.

In that case, whatever this god is trying to figure out, whatever he is at the mercy of, is God not this lesser being you are calling God.

relaxeus · Aug 13, 2006

angela 2 said:
In that case, whatever this god is trying to figure out, whatever he is at the mercy of, is God not this lesser being you are calling God.

I'm not totally sure I know what you are trying to say, but I think I do, let me know if this isn't what you were going for:

With regards to where God would fit in with this philosophy, this being would not be all-powerful. Whether or not a different name is appropriate for such a being isn't all that relevant. After all, it is just a name. What's important is the nature of the being, how powerful he is, how intelligent, etc...

Merlin · Aug 13, 2006

Well, there are indeed many gods.
But ultimately there is a beginning, an originator.
That entity, we refer to as God.
We could not know Him, so, He revealed Himself to us, demonstrating that He is Lord of all.

FatherJay · Aug 13, 2006

Hello relaxeus,

For some reason, Isaac Asimov's short story "The Last Question" came into my head when reading your OP.

http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html

Blessings on your journey,

Father J

bt_st_At · Aug 13, 2006

perhaps we are taking the word "God" as it is known today. Everyone assumes God has to be a being something that can think and talk and walk around....Maybe God is simply those rules of which you speak of. He is the binding force in all beings and all the universe. The feeling we have of him is perhaps a symptom of that energy which is coursing through our very bodies and existence.

angela 2 · Aug 14, 2006

relaxeus said:
With regards to where God would fit in with this philosophy, this being would not be all-powerful. Whether or not a different name is appropriate for such a being isn't all that relevant. After all, it is just a name. What's important is the nature of the being, how powerful he is, how intelligent, etc...

Yup, you got it. If the One we call God is not all-powerful, then he isn't God. Being all-powerful, IMO, is an essential attribute of the nature of God.

relaxeus · Aug 14, 2006

angela 2 said:
Yup, you got it. If the One we call God is not all-powerful, then he isn't God. Being all-powerful, IMO, is an essential attribute of the nature of God.

This is a bit off topic, but I'm curious,

If you found out that this philosophy is indeed true, that there are a set of rules that govern our universe which God has no control over, how would this affect your religious/spiritual life? For instance, would you continue to worship God knowing that he is not all-powerful? Would you consider yourself more equal to him? Any other thoughts would be appreciated.

angela 2 · Aug 15, 2006

relaxeus said:
This is a bit off topic, but I'm curious,

If you found out that this philosophy is indeed true, that there are a set of rules that govern our universe which God has no control over, how would this affect your religious/spiritual life? For instance, would you continue to worship God knowing that he is not all-powerful? Would you consider yourself more equal to him? Any other thoughts would be appreciated.

I couldn't worship the God you describe. I'm a lover of transcendence and have no desire to bring God down to my level.

A lot of what we're talking about is predicated on a particular understanding of the nature of humanity. My understanding is that the nature of humanity is fallen and cannot be made right without the act of a transcendent God.

What could a non-transcendent God do? Rearrange the deck chairs on the sinking Titanic?

elman · Aug 15, 2006

I think the Creator is not subject to any rules.

relaxeus · Aug 15, 2006

angela 2 said:
I couldn't worship the God you describe. I'm a lover of transcendence and have no desire to bring God down to my level.
A lot of what we're talking about is predicated on a particular understanding of the nature of humanity. My understanding is that the nature of humanity is fallen and cannot be made right without the act of a transcendent God.

What could a non-transcendent God do? Rearrange the deck chairs on the sinking Titanic?

God could still be incredibly powerful. He may have the power to affect everything else. He could bring anyone back from the dead and give them eternal life. He could act as an ultimate judge, bringing justice upon all other beings because he would still be the most powerful being in existence. What God would be capable of is still amazingly impressive. I think that such a being, although not completely powerful, would nevertheless be able to meet the needs and wants of humans.

angela 2 · Aug 15, 2006

relaxeus said:
God could still be incredibly powerful. He may have the power to affect everything else. He could bring anyone back from the dead and give them eternal life. He could act as an ultimate judge, bringing justice upon all other beings because he would still be the most powerful being in existence. What God would be capable of is still amazingly impressive. I think that such a being, although not completely powerful, would nevertheless be able to meet the needs and wants of humans.

In theory such a god could do what you describe. But in fact he could not do any of those things if they at any given time they violated any of your unspecified rules.

People have been tinkering with Christian theology for around 2,000 years. It's a tight-knit fabric. Pull something over here and something way over there moves.

Ever read anything by Robert Neville? He's the Dean of the Boston U School of Theology and a very bright guy. He presents the best rendering of a non-transcendent God I've yet to read. I've had the opportunity to talk with him at length about his philosophical theology. Still, it has no appeal for me because the god he presents is not one I would worship. I guess that's my ultimate test. If a concept of God does not stir in me (in my heart, soul, and mind) the desire to worship him/it/her, he/it/she is not God.

The_Horses_Boy · Aug 15, 2006

relaxeus said:
Perhaps there is something even greater and deeper than even God. This something may be what God and we ourselves may actually be dependant on. Maybe there are a set of rules that govern the way things are. This set of rules may not be changed by any powers, neither by ourselves or even beings of greater strength such as God. These rules are everlasting and unbreakable. They will exist forever and will apply everywhere across all of space so that every single particle of matter must abide by these rules, even God.

Perhaps the nature of these rules is such that they change. They may change in such a way that the existence of living beings will no longer be possible, and every living being, including the most powerful beings such as God, will instantly cease to exist.

Perhaps the nature of these rules is beyond study because no living being has the power to study them. They may exist on a level that is beyond any living beings reach. No microscope or mathematical equation is able to reveal its secrets, no matter how powerful the lenses are and no matter how brilliant the mathematical equation is. They are simply out of our reach, and try as we might, we will never be able to understand them. These rules would remain a mystery to us for as long as we would exist, and they would also remain a mystery to God. As powerful as God is, even he would not know what these rules are or what their nature is.

This set of rules may not have been created by any living being. Instead, these rules simply took their form because there was no other possibility. In the same way that a 6 sided dice with the numbers from 1-6 can never land a 7, so too these rules must have took their shape because there was no other form they could have had.

Thoughts?

Theologians have explored "rules", such as C. S. Lewis in "Mere Christianity", but if the rules are there then who made them?

relaxeus · Aug 15, 2006

angela 2 said:
Ever read anything by Robert Neville? He's the Dean of the Boston U School of Theology and a very bright guy. He presents the best rendering of a non-transcendent God I've yet to read. I've had the opportunity to talk with him at length about his philosophical theology. Still, it has no appeal for me because the god he presents is not one I would worship. I guess that's my ultimate test. If a concept of God does not stir in me (in my heart, soul, and mind) the desire to worship him/it/her, he/it/she is not God.

Lets assume that such a being exists, and is indeed limited in his power by certain rules which he has no control over. Say God offered me and you eternal life, a perfect soul incapable of sin, a beautiful home on a paradise world, and many other good things. I would accept his offer with much thanks and have a great deal of respect for a being who is pure good. I wouldn't worship him, though. Not because he doesn't have power over everything, but because I don't see the value in worship. I myself am not too fond of receiving compliments and praise. I would imagine that you would also accept the exact same offer which I received. Likewise, you would appreciate all God has done for you and you would have great respect for this being. You wouldn't worship God either for the reason that he is not all-powerful. That may be just fine, because God may not be fond of worship in the same way that I am not. For him, "thanks, your awesome!" would suffice. God would be happy, and we would have eternal, amazingly fulfilling lives. Everybody wins.

As I see it, worship is not important. Love, on the other hand, would be essential.

relaxeus · Aug 15, 2006

The_Horses_Boy said:
Theologians have explored "rules", such as C. S. Lewis in "Mere Christianity", but if the rules are there then who made them?

Perhaps no one. They may not necessarily have been made by any living being. They may have come into existance by natural processes without any living beings' involvement. They may also have always existed, never having a beginning, in the same way that some theologians believe God has always existed.

Something Deeper than God

YES!! Another possibility!!

SedjmNeter

Guest

YES!! Another possibility!!

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.

I will not Conform but find my own way!!

YES!! Another possibility!!

Well-Known Member

YES!! Another possibility!!

Paradigm Buster

Active Member

I will not Conform but find my own way!!

Well-Known Member

YES!! Another possibility!!

Well-Known Member

elman

YES!! Another possibility!!

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

YES!! Another possibility!!

YES!! Another possibility!!

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