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Ex roman catholic you mean
Of course i do, do you?Do you understand/ascribe to the Hypostatic Union of Christ?
The Jews and Muslims also say the same thing about their religionsNo such thing my dear...once you are Catholic you are always Catholic...it's just a matter of your current status...
btw, I had no idea that you were a lapsed catholic, hopefully I have been able to clear up some issues...God Bless you!!
The Jews and Muslims also say the same thing about their religions
I noticed that typo but I've learned not to shine light on typos as I make the most. I poked fun at one once and LLoJ showed me mine and made one himself while doing so.Actually, the post you quoted said "paying" to paintings. Huh. Gotta meditate on that one for awhile...
Quite right sir.No such thing my dear...once you are Catholic you are always Catholic...it's just a matter of your current status...
Not lapsed RC, lolbtw, I had no idea that you were a lapsed catholic,
You mean pertaining to why I no longer call myself rc?hopefully I have been able to clear up some issues...
Thank youGod Bless you!!
Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus
The Jews and Muslims also say the same thing about their religions
Of course ya do...yer a die-hard RC....As does the Marine Corps...
I fail to see your point.
Here's what is disgusting about that, is that they would rather attack the divinity of Christ to defend a un-biblical doctrine than allow that doctrine it's true alignment to scripture...Which is non existent.
Of course i do, do you?
It was a comment directed at you, it's about the false doctrines forwarded on Mary and the (S)aints by your church.Ah, maybe you need to remove the log from your own eye before worrying about the splinter in mine...
You mean pertaining to why I no longer call myself rc?
I noticed that typo but I've learned not to shine light on typos as I make the most. I poked fun at one once and LLoJ showed me mine and made one himself while doing so.
But if some want to pay to statues, I'll paint myself white and stand on the corner of first and main while shooing pigeons.
You're trying to equate God incarnate with all humans and if all means all then the Lord must have sinned...You can't be so blind as to not be able to see how that attacks His divinity???Then care to explain how showing the relation of the Lord's humanity attacks His divinity?
If she does do you thank her?Pray means "ask". Ergo, we ask Mary to intercede with her son for us.
You're trying to equate God incarnate with all humans and if all means all then the Lord must have sinned...You can't be so blind as to not be able to see how that attacks His divinity???
And how making others without sin detracts His glory by making others equivalent in Holy and pure righteousness...
When my wife is away I do kiss her picture. But then, I'm funny that way. I also kiss my Bible and nearly every Christian I meet in person unless I know they are not comfortable with it. Some see kissing as something purely sexual. That just doesn't jive with me. That would make kissing Grandma a bit strange.
I assure you I do not worship Saints, Mary, statues or icons. But I do understand why some see it that way. It's because many don't really understand what worship is. I love my wife dearly and pay great attention to her. I show her more affection than anyone save Christ. In doing so I worship Christ as what I show to my wife and others I show to Christ. If I show great love and respect for you, Strider, I have shown great love and respect for Christ.
Now will some become confused by my actions? I'm most certain they will. But if they convey that lack of understanding to me I'll simply invite them to walk one day with me and at the end of that day, they'll know who I worship. And, as the bulk of my prayer time is in private, I doubt most would see my prayers in any event.
Valid points.He disagrees with mary worship:Most Holy and Immaculate Virgin! O my Mother! Thou who art the Mother of my Lord, the Queen of the world, the advocate, hope, and refuge of sinners! I, the most wretched among them, now come to thee. I worship thee, great Queen, and give thee thanks for the many favors thou hast bestowed on my in the past; most of all do I thank thee for having saved me from hell, which I had so often deserved. I love thee, Lady most worthy of all love, and, by the love which I bear thee, I promise ever in the future to serve thee, and to do what in me lies to win others to thy love. In thee I put all my trust, all my hope of salvation. Receive me as thy servant, and cover me with the mantle of thy protection, thou who art the Mother of mercy! And since thou hast so much power with God, deliver me from all temptations, or at least obtain for me the grace ever to overcome them. From thee I ask a true love of Jesus Christ, and the grace of a happy death. O my Mother! By thy love for God I beseech thee to be at all times my helper, but above all at the last moment of my life. Leave me not until thou seest me safe in heaven, there for endless ages to bless thee and sing thy praises. Such is my hope. Amen.― (Prayer of St. Alphonse Liguori, 3 yrs indulgence, Raccolta, 342)
Source: With Mary to Jesus: a collection of Marian prayers,by Fr. Theodore Anthony Zaremba. O.F.M., Franciscan Printery,Pulaski, Wis.,1954. The introduction says: "The indulgenced prayers contained herein are from the latest official edition of the Enchiridion Indulgentiarum (Raccolta), a compilation of prayers and devotions enriched with indulgences by the authority of the Holy See."
18. It is therefore, a pleasure for us, a full century having passed since the Pontiff of immortal memory, Pius IX, solemnly proclaimed this singular privilege of the Virgin Mother of God, to summarize the whole doctrinal position and conclude in these words of the same Pontiff, asserting that this doctrine "vouched for in Sacred Scripture according to the interpretation of the Fathers, is handed down by them in so many of their important writings, is expressed and celebrated in so many illustrious monuments of renowned antiquity, and proposed and confirmed by the greatest and highest decision of the Church" (Bull Ineffabilis Deus), so that to pastors and faithful there is nothing "more sweet, nothing dearer than to worship, venerate, invoke and praise with ardent affection the Mother of God conceived without stain of original sin. (Ibidem.)33. But where - as is the case in almost all dioceses, there exists a church in which the Virgin Mother of God is worshipped with more intense devotion, thither on stated days let pilgrims flock together in great numbers and publicly and in the open give glorious expression to their common Faith and their common love toward the Virgin Most Holy. ...34. But let this holy city of Rome be the first to give the example, this city which from the earliest Christian era worshipped the heavenly mother, its patroness, with a special devotion. As all know, there are many sacred edifices here, in which she is proposed for the devotion of the Roman people; but the greatest without doubt is the Liberian Basilica [St. Mary Major], in which the mosaics of Our predecessor of pious memory, Sixtus III, still glisten, an outstanding monument to the Divine maternity of the Virgin Mary, and in which the "salvation of the Roman people" (Salus Populi Romani) benignly smiles.Source:FULGENS CORONA, Encyclical Of Pope PIUS XII, September 8th, 1953.
I highlighted some points.
Fulgens corona is an encyclical by Pope Pius XII, written in 1953, on the Feast of the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and proclaims a Marian year for 1954, to commemorate the centenary of the definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary. The part you bolded, however, which includes the part about nothing being “more dearer than to worship...the Mother of God” is not from Fulgens Corona, it is from Ineffabilis Deus.
Ineffabilis Deus ia a Papal bull by Pope Pius IX. that defined the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary and was promulgated in 1854. Yes, Pius IX did write that, but did he mean to put Mary on the same level as Jesus? To us in 2008, when we say “worship” it is commonly understood as showing devotion to a diety above all else. Remember though, that the word “worship” comes from the Old English word worthship, which denotes the worthiness of the one receiving a special honor or devotion. The audience of Pius IX in 1854 would understand that there are two forms of worship: The formal reverence and honor due only to God, and the devotion and love due to all other holy people. (You can still see vestiges of this today in the system of English Law where judges are referred to as “Your Worship”.
So you see, Pius IX is calling us to give honor and devotion to Mary but that is in no way even close to the reverence and glory we are to give to Jesus. You are reading an 1854 document with a 2013 vocabulary. To understand this more fully, pull up Ineffabilis Deus and read the whole Papal Bull.
Now, to finish up, let’s go back to Pius XII in 1953. Does he think we need to worship Mary the same as Jesus? Hardly. All you have to do is scroll up a couple of lines to section 15 of Fulgens Corona:
15. Non-Catholics and reformers are therefore mistaken when because of this pretext they find fault with, or disapprove of, our devotion to the Virgin Mother of God, as if it took something from the worship due to God alone and to Jesus Christ. The contrary is true because any honor and veneration which we may give to our Heavenly Mother undoubtedly redounds to the glory of her Divine Son, not only because all graces and all gifts, even the highest, flow from Him as from their primary source, but also because "The glory of children are their fathers" (Book of Proverbs, XVII 6).
Not only that...but consider this passage of Scripture from the KJV...
1 And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him.
2 And, behold, there was a certain man before him which had the dropsy.
3 And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day?
4 And they held their peace. And he took him, and healed him, and let him go;
5 And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?
6 And they could not answer him again to these things.
7 And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them.
8 When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;
9 And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.
10 But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee. (Luke 14:1-10)
Even more clearly stated here...
A bad choice of words
When the time came for that gesture at this particular wedding, the priest tried to explain. He said that the placing of the flowers is done because "we Catholics worship Mary." There was a collective sigh from the few Catholics in the church and a collective gasp from the non-Catholics, who felt their worst suspicions confirmed.
Was the priest right or wrong? Well, both. He was right, given his understanding of the word "worship," though he was using it an almost archaic sense. He was surely wrong in using it in front of people who would misunderstand his meaning.
In common speech "worship" means the adoration given to God alone. In this sense Catholics don't worship Mary or any of the other saints. In fact, the Catholic Church forbids any adoration to be given to any one or any thing but God. But in an older use of the term "worship" could cover not just the adoration of God but also the honor given to anyone deserving of honor.
Begin with the word itself. It comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which means the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.
But there are different kinds of worship, just as there are different kinds of honor. The highest honor, and thus the highest worship, is given to God alone, while the honor or worship given to living men or to saints in heaven is of a different sort. Idolatry thus does not simply mean giving worship (in the old sense) to living men or to saints; it means giving them the kind reserved for God.
Nowadays, there is a problem using the word "worship" because in the popular mind it refers to the worship of God alone. For practical purposes it has come to mean nothing else than adoration. Although it was commonly used in the wider sense as recently as the nineteenth century (when, for instance, Orestes Brownson, an American Catholic writer, produced a book called The Worship of Mary), it is usually too confusing to use it that way now, as the example of the priest shows. It is wise to restrict its use to God and to use for saints and others terms like honor and veneration.
Is this distinction without a difference? It would be if the worship given to God were the same as the honor given to a saint. But it isn't.
The term "worship" was used in the same way in the Bible that it used to be used in English. It could cover both the adoration given to God alone and the honor that is to be shown to certain human beings. In Hebrew, the term for worship is shakah. Its appropriately used for humans in a large number of passages.
For example, in Genesis 37:7-9 Joseph relates two dreams which God gave him concerning how his family would honor him in coming years. Translated literally the passage states: "'ehold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and lo, my sheaf arose and stood upright; and behold, your sheaves gathered round it, and worshipped [shakah] my sheaf.' . . . Then he dreamed another dream, and told it to his brothers, and said, 'Behold, I have dreamed another dream; and behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were worshipping [shakah] me.'"
In Genesis 49:8, Jacob pronounced a prophetic blessing on his sons, and concerning Judah he stated: "Judah, your brothers shall praise you; your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies; your father's sons shall worship [shakah] you." And in Exodus 18:7, Moses honored his father-in-law, Jethro: "Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and worshipped [shakah] him and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare, and went into the tent."
Yet none of these passages were discussing the worship of adoration--the kind of worship given to God.
Saint Worship?
Valid points.
Dear Catholic, Do tell us how you see no worship of Mary in this?
Guess you must have missed this previous post of mine about thatWell I can understand that. But like I said earlier, my biggest sticking point is the whole living dead thing.
Originally Posted by Stryder06
Again, it seems an unnecessary step. Many Catholics reply "Do you not ask others to pray for you?" and the answer to that is yes. What I don't do however is ask anyone to protect me, or give me grace. If asking Mary for grace and protection is ok, why not ask your priest for the same thing? Or your fellow Chistian?
When you die you're...ya know...dead
No consciousness. No immortal spirit/soul that ascends to heaven or descends to hell. The grave is a bed that you sleep in until the Lord wakes you up.
So how was this "rich man" in Luke 16 able to talk with Abraham when he died and was buried?
Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
Abraham's bosom
The next events recorded in this parable are the deaths of Lazarus and then the rich man. Since the parable has been figurative up until this point, there is no reason to assume it becomes literal now.LUKE 16:22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom.
The rich man also died and was buried."
23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."
First, to prove that this language is symbolic and not meant to be taken literally, let's examine exactly what we are told by Yeshua. He says that first, Lazarus dies and is taken to the bosom of Abraham. [Notice, there is no mention of his burial here.]
Then later the rich man dies, and he is buried (in Hades, according to verse 23). So the time sequence given indicates that upon his death, Lazarus was taken immediately to Abraham's bosom, while afterward the rich man was buried in Hades when he died.
If this story is literal, then we have a contradiction in the Bible. Here, Lazarus is shown to have immediately received the promise of eternal life. Yet the author of Hebrews clearly tells us that Abraham, as well as all the other Old Testament saints, have not yet received the promises given to them by God:
.
I do not greet my brothers and sisters with a "Holy kiss". Ever. Though I love them very dearly.
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