Someone explain this to me

icbal · Apr 4, 2005

No, I dont understand it.

Tell me how, that just because Jesus was born of a virgin, it makes God his father.

God is everyones father. Someone explain to me how Jesus is Gods real, and not metaphorical son, just because God created him in the womb, instead of by a mans seed - WHICH is not at all difficult for a being that can do anything he so wills.

How does that make Jesus Gods actual son?

Everyone else has God, Mother and Father.
God made Jesus without a Father.

Thats all.

That was the sign that the Messiah was here.
It was for no other purpose.

Its was the sign to say to everyone else "this is the one your looking for".

"Therfore the LORD will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and she will call him Immanuel."

For what reason do you call Jesus the Son of God?

the-fact-is · Apr 4, 2005

God is no one's father . He is everyone's CREATOR only

the Bible refers to thousands as sons of God . it is metaphoric , the Bible has NO proof at all that Jesus is different from those

The Bible also has NO proof that Jesus is god

a human father has a human son

an animal father has an animal son

all offsprings are like their parents

God is different from all HIS creations. there is nothing like him. He needs none and nothing, while everyone and everything needs HIM

icbal · Apr 4, 2005

My friend, that is my belief.

I am trying to understand the reasons for why Christians hold Jesus as THE son of God.

Because I've been through the bible, through many prophecies of him, and I see nothing that tells us that Jesus is Gods true son.

I see prophecies where God himself says "I will be as a father to him, and he will be as a son to Me."

I've seen prophecies where God states "From this day forth you are My son."

And I've seen numerous prophecies where God tells us all he will be a prophet with Gods words in his mouth - Like Moses.

The closest I find is when God says "he will be called Almighty God" and such.
But I mean, read it.
It doesn't say his name is Almighty God.
Or that he WILL BE almighty God.

It says he'll be called that.

And by various sects of the Church.
He is.
So the Prophecy is true.

Nowhere does it say, catagorically, that Jesus is Gods SON.
Nowhere does it say catagorically, that Jesus is God.

So why do so many people believe it?

Faithful nonbeliever · Apr 4, 2005

icbal said:
I am trying to understand the reasons for why Christians hold Jesus as THE son of God.

Then you might want to post in the ask christians or apologetics section.

icbal · Apr 4, 2005

LOL, I would, but I'll get my posts deleted for disturbing the peace again.

Muslim · Apr 4, 2005

icbal said:
No, I dont understand it.

Tell me how, that just because Jesus was born of a virgin, it makes God his father.

God is everyones father. Someone explain to me how Jesus is Gods real, and not metaphorical son, just because God created him in the womb, instead of by a mans seed - WHICH is not at all difficult for a being that can do anything he so wills.

How does that make Jesus Gods actual son?

Everyone else has God, Mother and Father.
God made Jesus without a Father.

Thats all.

That was the sign that the Messiah was here.
It was for no other purpose.

Its was the sign to say to everyone else "this is the one your looking for".

"Therfore the LORD will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and she will call him Immanuel."

For what reason do you call Jesus the Son of God?

Because some of the early Christians took verses of the Bible out of context and created some to make it seem like Jesus is the son of God. But they have no proof.

Holy Quran

Chapter 43, Verses 57. When (Jesus) the son of Mary is held up as an example, behold, thy people raise a clamour thereat (in ridicule)!

58. And they say, "Are our gods best, or he?" This they set forth to thee, only by way of disputation: yea, they are a contentious people.

59. He was no more than a servant: We granted Our favour to him, and We made him an example to the Children of Israel.

60. And if it were Our Will, We could make angels from amongst you, succeeding each other on the earth.

61. And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.

62. Let not the Evil One hinder you: for he is to you an enemy avowed.

63. When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me.

64. "For Allah, He is my Lord and your Lord: so worship ye Him: this is a Straight Way."

65. But sects from among themselves fell into disagreement: then woe to the wrong-doers, from the Penalty of a Grievous Day!

66. Do they only wait for the Hour - that it should come on them all of a sudden, while they perceive not?

Monica child of God 1 · Apr 4, 2005

Great question! I think the key to understanding the Messiah (Christ) as the eternal Son of God is looking at the Old Testament messianic prophecies of which there are many. The sign that a Virgin will bear a Child is just one. The prophecies below point to the Divine nature of the Child she would bear, his preexistence with God, the Father and/or His Oneness with the Father:

In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream, and visions passed through his mind as he was lying on his bed. He wrote down the substance of his dream.

"As I looked, "thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze. A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.

"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. Daniel 7:1,13-14

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. Isaiah 9:6-7

God said : "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. Zechariah 12:10-11

The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." Psalm 110:1

Jesus interprets this passage
While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, What do you think about the Messiah (Christ)? Whose son is he?

The son of David, they replied.

He said to them, How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him Lord? For he says, The Lord said to my Lord: Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet. If then David calls him Lord, how can he be his son? No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions. Matthew 22:41-46

Blessings!
Monica

Monica child of God 1 · Apr 4, 2005

Another important thing to remember in understanding the Trinity:

When we say that Jesus is the Son of God, we are saying that He has exsisted since before time as the Word of God. There has never been a moment when God is without His Word or His Spirit.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. And God said--Genesis 1:1-3

Here at the beginning, we see God (the Father), God the Holy Spirit and God the Son (the Word).

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.

Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. --John 1:1-3, 14

God is the creator of us all. He has revealed himself as a loving Father. Though we can become children of God it is through adoption

For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption, and by him we cry, Abba, Father. --Romans 8:15

We can become, by Grace, children of God. But we will never be uncreated as God the Son is. We will always be creatures, though full of Divine Grace if we choose. However, God the Word came from the Father full of grace and truth and put on flesh without ever losing His Divinity in order to make it possible for us to return to the Father after we had fallen away.

Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. --Philippians 2:5-11

Blessings!
Monica

peaceful soul · Apr 4, 2005

Muslim said:
Because some of the early Christians took verses of the Bible out of context and created some to make it seem like Jesus is the son of God. But they have no proof.

Holy Quran

Chapter 43, Verses 57. When (Jesus) the son of Mary is held up as an example, behold, thy people raise a clamour thereat (in ridicule)!

58. And they say, "Are our gods best, or he?" This they set forth to thee, only by way of disputation: yea, they are a contentious people.

59. He was no more than a servant: We granted Our favour to him, and We made him an example to the Children of Israel.

60. And if it were Our Will, We could make angels from amongst you, succeeding each other on the earth.

61. And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.

62. Let not the Evil One hinder you: for he is to you an enemy avowed.

63. When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me.

64. "For Allah, He is my Lord and your Lord: so worship ye Him: this is a Straight Way."

65. But sects from among themselves fell into disagreement: then woe to the wrong-doers, from the Penalty of a Grievous Day!

66. Do they only wait for the Hour - that it should come on them all of a sudden, while they perceive not?

Your post is pure conjecture. Where is your proof? Qu'ran? Then you would have to invalidate the Bible first and then validate the Qur'an. How do you do that?

arunma · Apr 4, 2005

Muslim said:
Because some of the early Christians took verses of the Bible out of context and created some to make it seem like Jesus is the son of God. But they have no proof.

Well, what can we say? It's much easier when your holy book was written by one single individual without any confirmation or validation from another source.

icbal · Apr 8, 2005

I wrote a topic on the validation of the Qur'an, using previously unused prophecies that applied totally to Muhammad in all ways.

It was subsequently taken by the staff here to be against the rule of promoting a religion other than Christianity and deleted.

What a very cleaver system of rules this place has to ensure that any actual proof that Christians may be wrong is promptly disposed of.

Fuzzy · Apr 8, 2005

icbal said:
...any actual proof that Christians may be wrong is promptly disposed of.

Ah. Here's the sticky bit. The parthenogenesis of Jesus is a matter of faith. Faith and Proof don't work together.

icbal · Apr 8, 2005

I personally think they have to.

If someone of faith is given unequivical proof that their way of belief is wrong, they are bound to at least doubt themselves.

The idea that faith needs no basis for support is silly to me, because then you follow whatever you want, and not what you should.

Thats what the scripture is for in the first place.
Though it seems to me sometimes that people dont look at it anyway.

Monica child of God 1 · Apr 8, 2005

icbal said:
I personally think they have to.

If someone of faith is given unequivical proof that their way of belief is wrong, they are bound to at least doubt themselves.

The idea that faith needs no basis for support is silly to me, because then you follow whatever you want, and not what you should.

Thats what the scripture is for in the first place.
Though it seems to me sometimes that people dont look at it anyway.

I agree that faith needs to be challenged with evidence seemingly to the contrary. Before I was a Christian, I was extremely skeptical of the crucifixion, resurrection and the Gospel message in general. I began to let down walls of resistance when presented with evidence, Biblical and non Biblical. Then I began to have (or realize that I was having) encounters with the Divine. Shortly thereafter, I surrendered my self to Christ my King and my God.

According to the first and greatest commandment we are told to "love the Lord...God...with all your mind..." So while my faith is sustained by the presence of the Living God in my life and in my heart, I understand that it is important to examine all things.

Blessings,
Monica

Fuzzy · Apr 8, 2005

icbal said:
If someone of faith is given unequivical proof that their way of belief is wrong, they are bound to at least doubt themselves.

Dictionary.com said:
faith
n.

Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.

Can you find this unequivocal (unambiguous) proof? There are extrabiblical
sources for the existence of someone whose Anglicized name is Jesus about
2000 years ago. Does this prove Jesus was the Son of God, and performed
miracles? No, it just proves that a Jesus existed.

Historical record tells us that about 180 years ago, Joseph Smith found
some gold plates, which he stated chronicled the lives of Israelite travellers
from 700BC. Around 1830, Smith gave the plates back to the angel who
led him to them in the first place, and the plates haven't been seen since.
All that is definite is several people testified they'd seen the plates,
but only Smith translated them.

Groups within neopaganism have varying levels of physical or historical
proof for what they believe, and a lot of it is extrapolation, such as the
Celtic Reconstructionist group, because the Celts had a chiefly oral
tradition, according to contemporaries of the time.

icbal said:
The idea that faith needs no basis for support is silly to me, because then you follow whatever you want, and not what you should.

People in Europe generally believed the earth was flat from 300 AD to
about 1100 AD.

Around 240 BC, Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the earth
at between 39,000 and 46,000 kilometers. 20th century science established
it at 40,008 km at the poles. Duplicatable mathematical proof of the earth
being a sphere, based on the lengths of shadows at two points a known
distance apart, hundreds of years before Man could get up high enough
to take pictures.

icbal said:
Thats what the scripture is for in the first place.
Though it seems to me sometimes that people dont look at it anyway.

If Scripture A provides credence for Divinity B, and Divinity B wrote/dictated/
inspired Scripture A, Scripture A is NOT objective proof. It's self-promotion.

(Warning! Generic pronouns ahead!)
I can tell you I've had an experience with the divine, wherein the divine
communicated with me. I can't prove to you what was said, since there's
no audio or visual recording of the event. At best, you can extrapolate
from observations of my behavior, my accounts of the experience, and
physical and chemical study of my brain if there was something going on.
Depending ont he results, I might be crazy, I might have had some sort
of hallucination, I might have talked to a being of some sort, or I might be
lying.

Since God has yet to do anything in unequivocal terms, we, as humans,
have varying opinons about God.

Buccaneer · Apr 8, 2005

the-fact-is said:
God is no one's father . He is everyone's CREATOR only

the Bible refers to thousands as sons of God . it is metaphoric , the Bible has NO proof at all that Jesus is different from those

The Bible also has NO proof that Jesus is god

a human father has a human son

an animal father has an animal son

all offsprings are like their parents

God is different from all HIS creations. there is nothing like him. He needs none and nothing, while everyone and everything needs HIM

Humans-human seed
animal-animal seed

And God said, let us make man in our Image

we are made in the way of god (living spirit) just thought id add that

tulc · Apr 8, 2005

Because some of the early Christians took verses of the Bible out of context and created some to make it seem like Jesus is the son of God. But they have no proof.

Well not quite: what we have is a different belief from you, and when you are presented with what we believe, any scripture we use are "corrupted" scriptures.
tulc(amazing how that works!)

icbal · Apr 9, 2005

Some are corrupted.
I dont know why its denied.

But I still believe every word that in the Gospel, Jesus said.
Thats the only part of the NT that has real importance to me.
And for good reason, that I shouldn't have to explain.

When you are confronted with what Muslims believe about the scriptures, you dont look at the points made, you merely (I say "you" in a general way) pretend it wasn't said and state what you "know" it means.
I find it astonishing that both Christians and Muslims here, in general, both argue that the other side doesn't listen, and both have convenient excuses as to why they cant explain something. I.e. it is corrupt, or it is from the Qur'an so its not scripture.

All of you here should look at the scripture of the Bible and decide then what means what in regard to who.
I've read the Gospels a few times.
I still find no reason to believe Jesus is God or the son of God.
I've read many prophecies of Jesus. And I've found many of them to be forced prophecies -in the form of a single line that could be made to fit anything or anyone, and none of them to show that Jesus is factually gods son, or God.

This is why I made this topic.

Why do Christians believe Jesus is the Son of God, or God Himself?

Find me a Prophecy that tells us that Jesus is God.
Find me a Prophecy that says Jesus is His son.
Find me a Prophecy where Jesus says he will die and come back to life.
Anything that actually tells us these things.

I dont want anything that merely suggests it, or a "could be".
God doesn't deal in could be's, or suggestions. He deals in true words, and real meanings.

If you cant give me these things, I want to know why it is that you believe these things about Jesus. Because it seems to me, someone way back when either got the wrong end of the stick, or made an explaination for it all to make a religion that people would want to follow in droves.

tulc · Apr 9, 2005

Find me a Prophecy that tells us that Jesus is God.

How about this one?

John 1 The Word Became Flesh

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, This was he of whom I said, He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me. 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

John the Baptist Denies Being the Christ

19Now this was John's testimony when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. 20He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, I am not the Christ. 21They asked him, Then who are you? Are you Elijah?

He said, I am not.

Are you the Prophet?

He answered, No.

22Finally they said, Who are you? Give us an answer to take back to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?

23John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, I am the voice of one calling in the desert, Make straight the way for the Lord.

24Now some Pharisees who had been sent 25questioned him, Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?

26I baptize with water, John replied, but among you stands one you do not know. 27He is the one who comes after me, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.

28This all happened at Bethany on the other side of the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

Jesus the Lamb of God

29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30This is the one I meant when I said, A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me. 31I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.

Find me a Prophecy where Jesus says he will die and come back to life.

you mean like this?

Matt. 16: 21
Jesus Predicts His Death
21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

tulc(hope that helps!)

gmachris · Apr 9, 2005

John 3:16

Someone explain this to me

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