Some thoughts on Predestination

Mark Quayle said:

Not at all. Only those upon whom God has chosen to show mercy -- the "objects of his mercy"-- are those who believe.

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Jesus told you that He "came into the world to save sinners".

Who are they?
Everyone.

But dont let the word of Jesus keep you from denying the Cross.
You just keep helping yourself to that deed, Mark.

Chaleb said:

Exactly.

If God sends you to hell for not believing in Jesus, because He wont let you....>"are not on of the predestined".. then God is unjust.

God can't prevent you from believing, and then hold you accountable for unbelief , which is the only reason people go to hell.

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Then you are denying Scripture which shows God doing exactly that. Romans 9:18 "So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."

But my point was that the sinner is already condemned by his deeds, (if not also by his natural enmity with God, and the imputation of guilt), and because he does not believe. God is not obligated to show him mercy. The fact he does show some mercy has no application to whether he is fair to NOT show the rest mercy.

Edit note: I don't know how or why it attached the png below, and can't figure out how to delete it. I'm on an unfamiliar laptop. But anyhow, it is not relevant to this post

Chaleb said:

Jesus told you that He "came into the world to save sinners".

Who are they?
Everyone.

But dont let the word of Jesus keep you from denying the Cross.
You just keep helping yourself to that deed, Mark.

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And so thus you once again, and wrongly, are claiming he specifically intended to save everyone, whereby you are showing that he failed to accomplish what he had set out to do. Not omnipotent.

The Only Biblical Predestination explanation due to God's unrestricted and sovereign ability without impartiality able to-this-day to do what He wants to whomever He wants even making something out of nothing (1 Corinthians 1:28) is found in Genesis 3:22-24 and Acts 17:24-31 (Especially Acts 17:27). Any other ideology is simply distortion of God's Word (especially by John Calvin).

Mark Quayle said:

Then you are denying Scripture which shows God doing exactly that. Romans 9:18 "So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."

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That verse has more to it, then just quoting it out of context as all Hyper Calvinist's have been taught to believe.
That verse is explained contextually in vs 24 and 25, that Calvin never read.

This.. is the contexts.

"""" I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.""""


So, Calvin aimed that verse, those verses at individuals but those verses are not making that point.

Mark Quayle said:

And so thus you once again, and wrongly, are claiming he specifically intended to save everyone,

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Yes, Jesus died for the sin of the World.

"""""Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:1-2)."

Calvin, who is a devil led heretic, denies this verse, denies the Cross, and teaches his followers to do the same, as you know, Mark.

John and Paul told you that Jesus said "came to saver sinners" as...>"Sins of the whole world".
This is also John 3:16 and. John 12:32

Calvin, rewrote that as "predestined elect > only" to DENY the Cross.
He died denying it, as demonic heretics tend to do, Mark.

Douglas Brian McIntire said:

The Only Biblical Predestination explanation due to God's unrestricted and sovereign ability without impartiality able to-this-day to do what He wants to whomever He wants even making something out of nothing (1 Corinthians 1:28) is found in Genesis 3:22-24 and Acts 17:24-31 (Especially Acts 17:27). Any other ideology is simply distortion of God's Word (especially by John Calvin).

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How do any of those differ from Calvin?

Chaleb said:

That verse has more to it, then just quoting it out of context as all Hyper Calvinist's have been taught to believe.
That verse is explained contextually in vs 24 and 25, that Calvin never read.

This.. is the contexts.

"""" I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.""""


So, Calvin aimed that verse, those verses at individuals but those verses are not making that point.

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I'm wondering how you can tell Calvin never read it, or that HyperCalvinist's have been taught to believe quoting it out of context. Can you expand on that?

Even more, I'm wondering why you reference Calvin here. My remarks, to which you answer, had nothing to do with Calvin. And why Hypercalvinists? I don't care about either one of them, nor did any of them teach me, nor are they any authority as far as I'm concerned. The fact they may in some respects agree with me, and the fact that you hate them, makes no difference to the matter at hand.

Edit> And, btw, what difference does it make that what you call the context also applies to the verse? It doesn't change the use or meaning of the verse.

Chaleb said:

Yes, Jesus died for the sin of the World.

"""""Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:1-2)."

Calvin, who is a devil led heretic, denies this verse, denies the Cross, and teaches his followers to do the same, as you know, Mark.

John and Paul told you that Jesus said "came to saver sinners" as...>"Sins of the whole world".
This is also John 3:16 and. John 12:32

Calvin, rewrote that as "predestined elect > only" to DENY the Cross.
He died denying it, as demonic heretics tend to do, Mark.

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I really don't care what Calvin did; I'm not a follower of Calvin. But I find it rather intriguing that you and your ilk illogically find him so repulsive.

So, if you can prove to me that any besides those to whom God chose to show mercy can, in fact, become born again, I'd like to see it. Or, more specifically in this immediate context, that the sinners he intended to save were absolutely everybody, but that he was unable to complete what he intended to do. The God I know is not only able to do whatever he will, but in fact will complete everything he set out to accomplish.

I attribute it to ignorance, or bad teaching, or to your mindset of self-determination, instead of to heresy, that you espouse a somewhat less than omnipotent God.

Mark Quayle said:

I can imagine you do relish, since your eisegesis demonstrates your biased point of view. It is amazing how self-determination blinds itself!
Man's belief is a result of the work of God upon him.

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Originally you complained that I gave too many scripture references and that you are burdened by having too many Bibles.. Now you are proclaiming eisegesis because I don't reference scripture- what is it? Calvinists are kings of Eisegesis with their "TULIP". None of that crap can be traced directly to scripture - it requires many pages of argumentation.

Mark Quayle said:

It was irrelevant to the question I asked. Nevertheless, Matthew 6:10 does not contradict that God accomplishes absolutely everything he set out to do. It even suggests that God even uses our prayers to accomplish things.

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We pray that “God’s Will” will be done here on earth, as it is currently being done in Heaven, not because we believe it’s already being meticulously done, but because we want for that to happen. We are petitioning Heaven that it would be done now. We’re praying for God to intervene, and to work His Will, and to bring about His redemptive plans, despite the sinful choices of free moral creatures here on earth.

Mark Quayle said:

I'm wondering how you can tell Calvin never read it, And why Hypercalvinists?

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A hyper calvinist is totally TULIP obsessed. and They feel a compulsion to preach it on Forums and from Pulpits.
They believe this is the Holy Spirit, and in fact its not.

Also,
Calvin read the scriptures with a carnal mind.
This means that if a verse was symbolic, he read it LITERALLY... He read it all like he was reading a dictionary.
And because he had such circular reasoning, he became maddened to create a theology.
Calvin wanted to be in the history books, like a Augustine, or a Jerome or a Paul.

This is the same heretic that was a part of a group that had a born again believer burned alive.
Calvin wanted his head cut off, but they decided to burn Servetus.
So, that is MURDER., and that is the person who invented Calvinism.

JC would read.....>"vessels fitted for destruction" and decided that is God causing some people to not Trust in Christ.
When its their free will UNBELIEF That = "fit them" for damnation / destruction / The 2nd Death

John 3:36

Calvin had to get rid of Free Will to make his crazy theology seem not as crazy.

JC read.... "God hardeneth Him who he will" that is talking about Pharaoh, and applied it as "not the elect", so that he could teach that the Elect were chosen and the rest were chosen to not be chosen by God for Salvation
Its really just insane Theology.

This man was Theologically twisted.

He has the Cross as a situation that isn't available for all "sinners".....YET.... "all have sinned". and Christ Himself said...>"i have come to save sinners".
Calvin said.."no you didn't Jesus, you only came to those that God didnt choose to go to hell".

Reader,
Here is the thing about a spiritual Lie...>"its BEWITCHING"... Its like witchcraft. It is a spell.....its a spiritual deception that is spell binding.

Paul says that people, both unbelievers and believers become SPELLBOUND by the power of a demonic lie.
Calvin is that LIAR.

Paul said to the Galatians. ........."who has BEWITCHED you".

A.) CALVIN is one of them

Mark Quayle said:

I really don't care what Calvin did; I'm not a follower of Calvin. But I find it rather intriguing that you and your ilk illogically find him so repulsive.

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Anyone who denies the Grace of God as "only available for some" is of the Devil.
I also dont like the Devil.
Figure it out, Mark.

Mark Quayle said:

How do any of those differ from Calvin?

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John Calvin is not Jesus nor an Apostles who has seen Jesus. Those who believe in Jesus follow Jesus and His instruction (With or without a family) while adhering to what the Apostles and writers of the New TESTAMENT taught. Anyone who follows Jesus will never live like John Calvin did. Not everyone is and Apostles or prophet and so forth, but everyone strives to be mature like Jesus Christ and would rather die than take a life which could be saved. Let me know if you want to talk about being imperfect with sin(s).

Mark Quayle said:

So, if you can prove to me that any besides those to whom God chose to show mercy can,

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Calvin teaches what you believe.
You've believed it, so..... what i do is show you the other side.
Im here a week.
You've believed Calvin's heresy for years.
So, that is STRONGHOLD, and those are difficult to deal with, because the person that has it, believes it.....and that that is why they have it.

That's what Calvinism does to a BELIEVER in CALVINISM.
It causes the person to not understand the Cross or the Grace of God.

"bewitched".

"Mind blinded".

Paul is not kidding.

Mark Quayle said:

I attribute it to ignorance, or bad teaching,

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I only teach Pauline Theology.
You'll have to wikipedia that.

Once you sort of understand it, then you'll find that Calvin is against Paul.
Calvinism is anti-cross. "anti-Grace". "anti-Christ"

John Mullally said:

Originally you complained that I gave too many scriptures and that you have many Bibles.. Now you are proclaiming eisegesis because I don't reference scripture- what is it? Calvinists are kings of Eisegesis with their "TULIP". None of that crap can be traced directly to scripture.

We pray that “God’s Will” will be done here on earth, as it is currently being done in Heaven, not because we believe it’s already being meticulously done, but because we want for that to happen. We are petitioning Heaven that it would be done now. We’re praying for God to intervene, and to work His Will, and to bring about His redemptive plans, despite the sinful choices of free moral creatures here on earth.

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You need to understand John 1:9-13 from the Greek perspective (John Wycliff had it right) and stick to Acts 17:24-31 one or you will be identical to all who distort the "Grace of God." Grace is for the whole world believer and unbeliever and everyone who comes to Jesus is saved through faith which obeys God because of His grace (LOVE). "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." Well, unless you believe you know better and more than Jesus who should have preeminence in "ALL THINGS"

8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. (Colossians 2)

Before anyone is baptized by the Holy Spirit Jesus said,

Woe to the Impenitent Cities​

20 Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.”

Jesus Gives True Rest​

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. 26 Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. 28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Mark Quayle said:

I really don't care what Calvin did; I'm not a follower of Calvin. But I find it rather intriguing that you and your ilk illogically find him so repulsive.

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You should care as you echo his theology. On the one-hand I revere Calvin because he was transparent as opposed to the current crop of his followers who play bait and switch.

John Mullally said:

We pray that “God’s Will” will be done here on earth, as it is currently being done in Heaven, not because we believe it’s already being meticulously done, but because we want for that to happen.

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God's Will is East of Eden. That is being done.
It wasn't Satan who banished man from the Garden.
It wasn't Satan who created East of Eden
Satan did not create Hell and even there he does not reign supreme.
God's Will for man right now is East of Eden,

QvQ said:

God's Will is East of Eden. That is being done.
It wasn't Satan who banished man from the Garden.
It wasn't Satan who created East of Eden
Satan did not create Hell and even there he does not reign supreme.
God's Will for man right now is East of Eden,

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God's will is not presently being done on earth and Jesus gave instruction to have it done per Matthew 6:10.

In Matthew 6:10, Jesus commanded his followers to pray "Your will be done on earth as it is heaven", he was also saying that God's Perfect Will on earth equates with what is being done in heaven. Notice that "be done" is in the present tense. There is no sin, sickness, poverty, or rebellion in heaven - so based upon "God being in complete control" and Matthew 6:10 there should be no sin, sickness, poverty and rebellion on earth at this time.

Just take God at His word in spite of where you position yourself relative to Eden: North, South, East, West, yada-yada.

John Mullally said:

In Matthew 6:10, Jesus commanded his followers to pray "Your will be done on earth as it is heaven",

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Luke 22: 42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.