Some thoughts on Predestination

Mark Quayle said:

God is just and right to send someone to hell for one sin alone. Why would he then be required to choose them to believe?

"And any thinking person, can see that" your theology implies God is unable to complete what he set out to do.

Low-hanging fruit, there.

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Calvin teaches that God "pre-destine's" the "elect" to believe, as that is Calvin's warped understanding of God's Foreknowledge.

I dont teach that junk so, no need to accuse me, based on your misunderstanding of what i wrote.

Im not a Calvinist.
Believe it.

Mark Quayle said:
God is just and right to send someone to hell for one sin alone. Why would he then be required to choose them to believe?

"And any thinking person, can see that" your theology implies God is unable to complete what he set out to do.

Chaleb said:

Calvin teaches that God "pre-destine's" the "elect" to believe, as that is Calvin's warped understanding of God's Foreknowledge.

I dont teach that junk so, no need to accuse me, based on your misunderstanding of what i wrote.

Im not a Calvinist.
Believe it.

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My bad. I misunderstood what you wrote to mean that God intended to save everyone.

So, in your so well-documented understanding of Scripture, God did not set out to save anyone, then?

Mark Quayle said:

So, in your so well-documented understanding of Scripture, God did not set out to save anyone, then?

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Calvin is the Cross denier.

Im the Pauline Doctrine Teacher.


Paul's Gospel of the Grace of God is that 'ALL" are given the Cross, but not all will BELIEVE.

The born again.......have a "mission".

Here it is.....we are to be this one.......doing this verse, as our ministry.


Paul Teaches...
-

New International Version
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

New Living Translation
For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them. And he gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation.

English Standard Version
that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

Berean Standard Bible
that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s trespasses against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Berean Literal Bible
how that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not reckoning their trespasses to them, and having put into us the word of reconciliation.

King James Bible
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

New King James Version
that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

New American Standard Bible
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

NASB 1995
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Chaleb said:

Calvin is the Cross denier.

Im the Pauline Doctrine Teacher.


Paul's Gospel of the Grace of God is that 'ALL" are given the Cross, but not all will BELIEVE.

The born again.......have a "mission".

Here it is.....we are to be this one.......doing this verse, as our ministry.


Paul Teaches...
-

New International Version
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

New Living Translation
For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them. And he gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation.

English Standard Version
that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

Berean Standard Bible
that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s trespasses against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Berean Literal Bible
how that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not reckoning their trespasses to them, and having put into us the word of reconciliation.

King James Bible
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

New King James Version
that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

New American Standard Bible
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

NASB 1995
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

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Non-answer. (Though I am curious why you put down so many different versions of the same verse. Does volume correspond with relevance?)

Again:
Mark Quayle said:
So, in your so well-documented understanding of Scripture, God did not set out to save anyone, then?

Mark Quayle said:

Non-answer. (Though I am curious why you put down so many different versions of the same verse. Does volume correspond with relevance?)

Again:
Mark Quayle said:
So, in your so well-documented understanding of Scripture, God did not set out to save anyone, then?

Click to expand...

The reason i post multiple bible verses, regarding the same verse, is because most of the people who argue with me, dont study their bible.
They are arguing out of a Cultist's Commentary that they prefer, or a website, where they find "cut and paste" theology that they post, as if they wrote it.


So, I answered your question for you., previously.

Here it is again...

"God is out to save everyone".... You said, Mark.

See : John 3:16

See: 2 Corinthians 5:19

See : John 12:32

Chaleb said:

The reason i post multiple bible verses, regarding the same verse, is because most of the people who argue with me, dont study their bible.
They are arguing out of a Cultist's Commentary that they prefer, or a website, where they find "cut and paste" theology that they post, as if they wrote it.


So, I answered your question for you., previously.

Here it is again...

"God is out to save everyone".... You said, Mark.

See : John 3:16

See: 2 Corinthians 5:19

See : John 12:32

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So, after all, I was right: You espouse a notion of a god, who is not quite omnipotent, since he cannot accomplish what he set out to do.

Mark Quayle said:

So, after all, I was right: You espouse a notion of a god, who is not quite omnipotent, since he cannot accomplish what he set out to do.

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You've not posted anything yet but your opinion or some confused misunderstanding of what i wrote.
You cant even understand what Clare73 wrote, according to your posts.

Listen, God provided Jesus on the Cross, so that by His "eternal sacrifice".... Hebrews 10:12. = we who Beiieve in Christ , can receive the Gift of Salvation, and be born again.

Calvin, who is your leader, says that you dont have any free will, you are unable to Believe unless forced by God, because you the human robot has to be forced by God to be believe.

Paul says tha Calvin is an "enemy of the Cross", and a devil deceived this.....> Galatians 1:8

Calvin denies the Grace of God, by Twisting it into : TULIP...... and He especially rejects that Salvation is a FREE Gift that is given to the World.
So....= Calvin teaches that John 3:16 isn't True.

Paul's Gospel proves its THE Truth.

Chaleb said:

You've not posted anything yet but your opinion or some confused misunderstanding of what i wrote.
You cant even understand what Clare73 wrote, according to your posts.

Listen, God provided Jesus on the Cross, so that by His "eternal sacrifice".... Hebrews 10:12. = we who Beiieve in Christ , can receive the Gift of Salvation, and be born again.

Calvin, who is your leader, says that you dont have any free will, you are unable to Believe unless forced by God, because you the human robot has to be forced by God to be believe.

Paul says tha Calvin is an "enemy of the Cross", and a devil deceived this.....> Galatians 1:8

Calvin denies the Grace of God, by Twisting it into : TULIP...... and He especially rejects that Salvation is a FREE Gift that is given to the World.
So....= Calvin teaches that John 3:16 isn't True.

Paul's Gospel proves its THE Truth.

Click to expand...

Why do you keep on assuming, after multiple corrections?

Calvin is not my leader. I've never even read his stuff. I get told on forums like this one, what he said, that I never read. I grew up in a Dispensational, arminianistic, fundamentalist background, by which I despaired of ever conquering sin; I came to believe what Reformed theology teaches because I studied the Bible and prayed —not because of Calvinism nor Reformed theology. I learned from Paul, and from life, and from the Holy Spirit. I didn't even know it was called Reformed/Calvinist until someone showed me the same things I believed. Your assumptions drive your opinions, but you don't know what you are railing against.

You demonstrate repeatedly that you don't know the Scriptures, using, for example in this post, John 3:16, the way that is typical of your kind, as though it reveals God's indeterminate will to save absolutely all, indiscriminately, and then you subject God to inability to overcome human 'freewill', whatever that is. "For God loved the world thus, that he gave his only begotten son, that everyone who believes in him would have everlasting life." Not, 'For God loved the world so much, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever —God doesn't really even know or care just who— believes in him might (we aren't quite sure, since it hasn't been determined as yet) have eternal life.'

Calvin does not say anyone is "forced" by God, nor does he teach robotocism. I have heard him quoted often enough in this context to know that is not what he says.

Paul does not say "tha Calvin is an 'enemy of the Cross', and a devil deceived this.....> Galatians 1:8". It is YOU who teach a false Gospel, contrary to Christ's and Paul's gospel of Grace, with your notion that it is up to us whether we get to Heaven or not. Just saying....

OF COURSE Paul's gospel is the truth. I'm not, and @Clare73 's not, nor is Calvin, saying otherwise. Your hyperb— ...er, extravagant, language doesn't then prove your point, that Calvin teaches a different gospel.

I'm not going to take the time in this post to explain what I understand Calvin, or at least, Reformed /Calvinist theology to say, but your misrepresentations of what we believe are outrageous, though typical of your kind.

Mark Quayle said:

Calvin is not my leader. I've never even read his stuff. I get told on forums like this one, what he said, that I never read.

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I agree. I doubt the ones who rail against "Calvin" have actually read the Institutes either.
The longest discussion Mark Quayle and I have had was about First Cause, which was based on the writings of Aquinas.
I read "Calvin this" and "Calvin that" on these threads but when I actually research The Insitutes, I find that isn't what Calvin said or meant at all.
Calvinism seems to be a broad brush with the narrow 5 Point spectrum to most people

Mark Quayle said:

I learned from Paul, and from life, and from the Holy Spirit. I

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Correct thy self.

Also, Paul's Gospel is not "reformed' or "Catholic" or "Calvin" or "JW" or "Mormon" or "Berean" or any 'denomination".

Paul simply teaches "the simplicity that is in Christ' as the Blood Atonement.

"Grace through faith" without the deeds of the Law.

"to you who worketh not but believeth on God who justifies the UNGODLY, your FAITH is counted as Righteousness".

Some are guided to their last end with the aid of grace, while others deprived of this grace fall from their last end. According to Thomas, this distinction has been ordained by God from eternity. We should not inquire as to the reason why God permits some men to go their own way, for ultimately this depends on his “sheer will.” It is similar to God’s acts in creation. When by divine fiat he made all things ex nilhio he created some with greater dignity. As the apostle declares, this is his right: “Hath not the potter power over the clay, to make of the same lump one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?” (Rom. 9:21)

St. Thomas Aquinas

QvQ said:

Some are guided to their last end with the aid of grace, while others deprived of this grace fall from their last end. According to Thomas, this distinction has been ordained by God from eternity. We should not inquire as to the reason why God permits some men to go their own way, for ultimately this depends on his “sheer will.” It is similar to God’s acts in creation. When by divine fiat he made all things ex nilhio he created some with greater dignity. As the apostle declares, this is his right: “Hath not the potter power over the clay, to make of the same lump one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?” (Rom. 9:21)

St. Thomas Aquinas

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St Thomas left out the context.

Here is the context..

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? ?


In other words...who are you little man, to question God, no matter if God wants to paint the sky black and turn all the water into Blood. So...you need to keep your big arrogant mouth SHUT. As you came from Dirt and you'll go back to Dirt... oh ye PRIDE FILLED ONE, and God can send you to that GRAVE today........understand ???

So, your verses are not saying that GOD is doing that.........Its explaining that the pride filled arrogance of man would attempt to dictate to God, how things should be, and what God should be doing.

Now you are shouting at me for reading Aquinas.

I have searched the Institutes for "predestination" and "election." There isn't much, mainly references to Augustine.
The origin of the doctrines
St. Thomas Aquinas

St. Thomas
Divine Simplicity
The 5 Proofs of God's Existence
The 1st Cause.

And predestination naturally follows.
Augustine further developed the concept of predestination.

Chaleb said:

Correct thy self.

Also, Paul's Gospel is not "reformed' or "Catholic" or "Calvin" or "JW" or "Mormon" or "Berean" or any 'denomination".

Paul simply teaches "the simplicity that is in Christ' as the Blood Atonement.

"Grace through faith" without the deeds of the Law.

"to you who worketh not but believeth on God who justifies the UNGODLY, your FAITH is counted as Righteousness".

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Did I say that Paul's Gospel is "Reformed" or "Calvin"? Why did you even go there? Be honest.

But besides this, you continue with your mantra, as if "Calvin" and "Reformed", whom you hate, are about working and not faith, a gift and work of God. It it wasn't so ludicrous, and opposite the very identification by which Calvinism and Reformed Theology are known, I'd have to say you must simply not know what "Calvin" and "Reformed" teach --but you plow on, as though you are doing God's work, no matter what you are told.

Mark Quayle said:

Did I say that Paul's Gospel is "Reformed" or "Calvin"? Why did you even go there? Be honest.

But besides this, you continue with your mantra, as if "Calvin" and "Reformed", whom you hate, are about working and not faith, a gift and work of God. It it wasn't so ludicrous, and opposite the very identification by which Calvinism and Reformed Theology are known, I'd have to say you must simply not know what "Calvin" and "Reformed" teach --but you plow on, as though you are doing God's work, no matter what you are told.

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I see that you figured out that Clare73, never replied to my post that talked to her about that "works to be righteous", that she posted.
It took you a while.
Good for you, Mark.


Also, I simply stated that Paul's gospel is not related to those 2 you mentioned.
And i dont hate Calvin, i just reject "doctrines of devils'.
Hebrews 13:9.

Calvin could not comprehend that "God knowing all things, does not mean that God causes all things".
Do you know who teaches that everything is predestined to occur?

THE BUDDHA.
really.
Thats Buddhism.
Think Calvin read the work of The Buddha?, as Buddha teaches that "its all predestined"...


And , because J Calvin was not able to discern the word of God, but only looked at it from the secular eyes of his Lawyer's Training, he made a blinding mess out of the NT, and ended up in opposition to the Cross and in direct denial of the Grace of God.

QvQ said:

Now you are shouting at me for reading Aquinas.

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I simply explained the verse that preceeds ST Aquinas's misunderstanding of those next verses that you posted in his teaching.

That's not shouting.
That's just simple teaching.

Chaleb said:

Think Calvin read the work of The Buddha?, as Buddha teaches that "its all predestined"...

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Are you even basically literate? That is not what the Buddha stated.

QvQ said:

Now you are shouting at me for reading Aquinas.

I have searched the Institutes for "predestination" and "election."

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Put all thst in the drawer, and get a NT and "study to show yourself approved unto God".

I can tell you truthfully that when Paul said...>"be a follower of Me as i follow Christ" he is telling you that because its His Epistles that are going to teach you the truth.
Accept no substitute, QVQ..

If you dont like that idea, then listen to someone who only teaches "Pauline Theology".

Thats me, and there may be others here who are of that same mind, but im new here and have not met everyone yet, im certain.

PuerAzaelis said:

Are you even basically literate? That is not what the Buddha stated.

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Are you even basically in your right mind?

You've not dealt with many Buddhists.

The Buddha teaches it this way.

"karma is your destiny"

Or, In Buddhism, the concept of destiny or fate is called niyati. Niyati refers to predetermined, inevitable, and unalterable events.

"karma" is not exactly the same idea as Predestination that Calvin wrongly teaches as "Foreknowledge".

Chaleb said:

Do you know who teaches that everything is predestined to occur?

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St Thomas Aquinas
Augustine

Predestination and providence are concepts that are presented through St. Thomas' 5 proofs of the existence of God and 1st Cause.
Divine Simplicity also is a part of it

You are entirely correct in saying that "karma is not exactly the same idea as predestination."

Buddhism basically is a person receiving what that person deserves:
Karma is refuted in the Book of Job.
Job was innocent.
There are two concepts in Christianity that do not appear in Buddhism,
Innocence (it's your karma, Job, you did something bad)
Injustice (Anything that befalls a person is Just...his karma)