Some questions

PlainMeteorologist · Mar 22, 2007

This thread brings to mind a QF family that we are good friends with. They have six (soon seven) kids, but they don't have a large income. There are times when it's been so bad, they couldn't afford groceries for the week. Whenever the situation became dire, however, God took care of them. Bags of groceries and cash (I'm talking 50s and 100s) would appear in their car. God will provide for His own.

annaapple · Mar 26, 2007

teishpriest said:
I'm still new to QF, but God brought my DH and I to it at the same time. He was dealing with us individually on this particular topic. There isn't a particular verse I can point to so much as the theme of children being a blessing, and seeing how much God values children throughout the Bible. I couldn't believe the anti-child attitudes that were in the world, and have even shown up in the Church to a degree. I guess QF was just a continuation of the path we were on already.

This thread has been GREAT, and has largely stopped me having to post my own questions - thank you all so much. I don't want to get too far off the original poster's stuff, but with permission I'd like to throw something else into the ring to get your thoughts.

The comment above really struck home because exactly the same thing happened to us - God worked on my DH and I individually, and when I raised the idea of letting God decide our family size I was SO surprised to find he was feeling exactly the same way - hooray!

However, he expressed one concern which I have too: I have already had two cesarean sections so now that's all I'm allowed to have (the kids didn't engage, the umbilical cords were knotted around them; the first was emergency the second elective after DS no. 2 didn't engage either). There is a limit on the number of sections a person can safely have. This is a trusting God issue - what if He expects me to me sensible? Or will he do thelimiting for us? What do y'all think?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and differing perspectives!

ksdedee74 · Mar 26, 2007

My first question is who gave you that limit for the c-sections?

Assisi · Mar 26, 2007

My Aunt was told that she could not have more than two caesars, she had four

I would find out information. It is important that your life is protected, and I would take the caesars into account.

annaapple · Mar 26, 2007

ksdedee74 said:
My first question is who gave you that limit for the c-sections?

My gynecologist. 4 was the absolute outer limit she gave; she preferred me to stick to 3. So I guess that means 5max.

VBA2C does happen in online stories, but my doc says she won't risk it. Chances something going wrong small, but if it goes wrong almost certain death for me and the baby. I can see why that doesn't appeal to her...

Sabertooth · Mar 26, 2007

Our #4 was a c-section. All that followed were vaginal deliveries. They said our c-section was a "kangaroo cut[?]" It was horizontal, instead of vertical. You need to ask your doctor if our situation applies to you.

annaapple · Mar 26, 2007

yeah, mine also 'bikini line' - ie low and horizontal. So VBAC a possibility after 1, but not after 2. Traditional incision VBAC totally impossible apparently...

ksdedee74 · Mar 26, 2007

I have had 3 successful Vbac's but was also told if I had another c section I would not be able to have anymore natural because of malpractice suits. Around here they usually say 4 but some doctors will preform more. They usually after 3 or 4 & depending on the person and how they healed will make a new cut instead of using the old one. That way they do not continually weaken the same scare.

I have to say as far as an absolute limit there is no such thing if someone gets pregnant they have to be delivered. There are doctors who will refuse to treat but..

I know of women who have sucessfully delivered as many as 8 c-section, I also know women who have died delivering thier 1st. When we put things like this in God's hands and ask him to truelly burden us with the right answer I believe he will. I am not saying wing it. I am saying go to him in prayer and ask him to reveal his will. Doctor are not always right. In things like this they treat based on thier personal opinions. Which isn't bad, but if you feel it is truelly something God has laid on your heart to go ahead with, then I wouldn't argue with God. He knows best. We should never be scared of the risks if we are truelly aligning ourselves with God's will.

PlainMeteorologist · Mar 26, 2007

However, he expressed one concern which I have too: I have already had two cesarean sections so now that's all I'm allowed to have (the kids didn't engage, the umbilical cords were knotted around them; the first was emergency the second elective after DS no. 2 didn't engage either). There is a limit on the number of sections a person can safely have. This is a trusting God issue - what if He expects me to me sensible? Or will he do thelimiting for us? What do y'all think?

My wife and I are pregnant with our first child, and we've done a lot of research into many aspects of birth, including VBACs. Have any of you heard of Ina May Gaskin or the Farm in Tennessee? Ina May is probably the nation's leading midwife, and she can deliver a baby vaginally in almost any condition. Her hospital transfer rates are incredibly low, even for "high-risk" births like VBACs. If no else can, Ina May might be able to help you birth vaginally.

annaapple · Mar 26, 2007

I think flying to the USA when I am almost in labour could be a little much, sadly!

Thanks, ksdedee74, for your thoughts. I really like the way you expressed that way of aligning oneself to God's will. We will pray about that.

EDIT: Later... with more time (as long as it takes to drink a hot chocolate!)

I guess the real issue for me isn't so much my previous medical history, as the implications that it has in relation to this decision and trusting God. In my heart I feel that if I trusted God enough, I would let go and leave Him completely in control. But my head says that we were given heads (and sensible ideas that come from them like the Billings method) by God - so surely I should be using mine? But then my heart starts up again... I am finding it hard to be confident that I know what God's will is for our lives, but I do want to have the faith to submit to it, whatever it may be and however crazy it may seem to doctors, friends, relatives...

Somehow I find it MUCH easier to believe that God will provide for us materially (I'm not that demanding anyway) than that He would guarantee my health! Weird eh?

Has anyone else struggled with similar issues? Not sections specifically but letting go and going fully quiverfull? And if so, what helped you?

At our marriage we promised to accept children lovingly from God - and that's a vow we feel convicted to keep more strictly. Health issues are holding us back.

If you got this far - thank you for reading! And from Europe, good night, sleep tight!

PlainMeteorologist · Mar 26, 2007

Oops, I didn't realize you are from Europe. Given that, I think Ina May's books (Spiritual Midwifery and Ina May's Guide to Childbirth) would be useful, if for no other reason than inspiration. Both books are filled with empowering birth stories that show God knew what He was doing when He designed us.

My wife and I also had to deal with the issue of, "Is being QF the sensible thing to do at this point in our lives?" A big part of our conviction to be QF stems from our leading to our current church. We saw how the QF families persevered without much money and sometimes even without ideal health but with a richness of faith in God. We realized that, if God will provide for them, He will do the same for all of us.

oliveplants · Mar 26, 2007

annaapple said:
Somehow I find it MUCH easier to believe that God will provide for us materially (I'm not that demanding anyway) than that He would guarantee my health! Weird eh?

Has anyone else struggled with similar issues? Not sections specifically but letting go and going fully quiverfull? And if so, what helped you?

I know what you mean. I am overweight (verging on obese) and it bothers me. I feel like I should be in "better shape" before having more children. I feel like I don't keep up with them very well. But we tried to space them a little (still desiring more, but wanting a little time for me to get thing stogether), and I get pregnant anyway. I don't know if we are stubborn enough to try to space a little next time, too, or if we've finally gotten the message that God will give the baby when He's ready.

For DH and I, sometimes the only way we can 'let go' is when God comes and rips it out of our hands. I wish I were more attuned to His leading, but I'm so glad He can make things quite clear.

As far as your particular circumstances, it would be easy for me to find stories of people who've had several C-sections, or VBAC after more than 1, but I don't think that really helps you. If your doctor won't do it, it doesn't matter if another doctor will. I would suggest getting a second opinion, but if you really believe there is great risk, then you should certianly be cautious. Pray, pray, pray. And I wouldn't TRY to have a baby without good confirmation from God. But He's always welcome to make things obvious! LIke someone said, if you are pregnant, they can't deny you a delivery one way or the other.

jgonz · Mar 26, 2007

You know, my DH never has been able to make that complete leap of faith... He is completely open to as many children as G-d would give us, yet he insists on using condoms during my fertile times because "G-d gave us a brain and we should use it"... But G-d is still in control... we still had 6 children In Spite Of his fears...

annaapple · Mar 29, 2007

oliveplants said:
I know what you mean. I am overweight (verging on obese) and it bothers me. I feel like I should be in "better shape" before having more children. I feel like I don't keep up with them very well. But we tried to space them a little (still desiring more, but wanting a little time for me to get thing stogether), and I get pregnant anyway. I don't know if we are stubborn enough to try to space a little next time, too, or if we've finally gotten the message that God will give the baby when He's ready.

Maybe the weight is a good thing, for now? I put on weight every pregnancy and it never comes off until I stop bf; and most of it only a year after I stop... So I guess God / nature has a plan! Maybe when God feels you have as many children as He would like you to have, He'll make it easier for you to lose weight? I don't know really, just wild speculation...

I guess we just have to keep reminding ourselves that HE is in control - esp. st those times when we think we now best!

tryinghard · Apr 11, 2007

it is so good to hear of someone else that has similar issues to me.. I have also had 2 c-sections and wonder where do I go from here, despite a desire to have lots of kids. Anyhow this thread has promoted a long discussion with my husband which has been helpful and hearing some other stories has encouraged me. Point of note - my doctor says 4 c-sectons are the limit and my friend has had five.

~Nikki~ · Apr 11, 2007

tryinghard said:
it is so good to hear of someone else that has similar issues to me.. I have also had 2 c-sections and wonder where do I go from here, despite a desire to have lots of kids. Anyhow this thread has promoted a long discussion with my husband which has been helpful and hearing some other stories has encouraged me. Point of note - my doctor says 4 c-sectons are the limit and my friend has had five.

I met someone who'd had 5, and I've heard of people who've had more than that.

annaapple · Apr 11, 2007

I guess there's just not much left of one's stomach muscles! But then, flat tummies are highly over-rated (I keep telling myself!)

As to the risk thing: the risk of full uterine rupture as a result of muscle contractions in labour is very very small. But if it happens it is very very bad. I am sympathetic to a doctor's desire to chose risks they have some chance of controlling (planned section) over risks they can't control. They are, after all, responsible for keeping us alive. Of course they are not perfect and one can dispute their opinions, which are only opinions, but still...

In the Netherlands they are real natural birth fascists: you have to fight for painkillers and so on. All medical interventions are avoided as far as that is possible for health of mother and baby. Their attitude is that birth is a natural, healthy thing that happens to healthy women so deal with it. The section rate is one of the lowest, if not the lowest, for an MEDC. yet even they won't allow VBA2C...

teishpriest · May 3, 2007

One of my friends had 5 C-sections (medically unavoidable in her case) and after that her husband felt that they should not have more because of the risk to her. I don't think you can just say, "Everyone should do X". I think cases like this you just have to really seek God and listen for His answer.

I have another aquantaince whose womb pretty much "fell apart" during her third c-section, and they couldn't really "put it back together" so that was the last baby for her. Sometimes things like that happen and you don't have to make a decision yourself.

In any case, God shows us what to do, we just have to listen.

Tryingbutfailing · May 6, 2007

Good luck to you. We have been there and with God's help we got through it all

mom2preciousgirls · May 12, 2007

This is my first post other than an intro.

I just wanted to say that Rose Kennedy (mother to JFK) had 11 c-sections way back in the 30's. I think we are probably more advanced now

I would look for a different doctor who would consider VBAC or at least not discourage having more children whether it be through c-section or otherwise.

God Bless

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