Solving the Problem of false doctrine

Berserk · Jan 4, 2023

?In Luke 1:1-4 Luke expresses his awareness of "many" previous but now lost Gospels about Jesus' life. Suppose archaeologists discovered one of these and its traditions about Jesus seemed as plausible as any in our canonical Gospels. Would you consider the possibility of including such a new Gospel in our NT canon? For example, we know that the ancient library of Caesarea contained a now lost Aramaic Gospel of John. The scholarly consensus is that our Greek canonical Gospel of John is not a translation from Aramaic. So if, as I think, this Aramaic Gospel of John proved to be an early first-century Gospel, might it not also be a canonical candidate? Or is that NT canon closed. no questioned asked?

Darren Court · Jan 5, 2023

JAL said:
You write as though I've been unfair. I've put in a lot of effort on this thread and divulged a lot of information.

You certainly have put a lot effort into avoiding directly answering a simple question, throwing in irrelevant information, redirecting with questions of your own and mixing in smidgen of implied insult and a sprinkling with direct insult.

Darren Court · Jan 5, 2023

JAL said:
As for me, I only omitted a few details of my position, pending a fair treatment of post 151. That's more than fair. I also gave you hints, clues, and even reminded you that the solution is simple.

How any sane person could write such drivel is beyond comprehension, maybe because it's not possible. You only "omitted a few details of my position"... No, you simply didn't answer the question, choosing to redirect and provide what you arrogantly call "hints" or "clues". This is ironic because you repeatedly insist people give you direct answers to your points and your questions.

Darren Court · Jan 5, 2023

JAL said:
Post 151 simply raises the same challenge alleged by Catholics for centuries, "If the Bible is your only authority, on what authority do you accept the Bible?"

Post #151 was in response to a direct question that you still haven't answered and we're on #425 now.

JAL · Jan 5, 2023

Darren Court said:
Post #151 was in response to a direct question that you still haven't answered and we're on #425 now.

You're trying to shame me - basically bully me - into spilling the beans. That's not going to work. I'm supposed to feel bad that you're awaiting those pearls? Why? For 35 years I've waited to find a few evangelicals willing to face the issue of post 151. And they've had at least 500 years to address it.

Do you have any idea how many sermons I've had to patiently sit through where the pastor seems to preach cult-like stupidity about the Holy Spirit, droning on for hours, and I can't complain because I don't want to be a divisive member? How many times I've kissed up to the pastor just like everyone else?

And then, whenever I do spill those beans on this forum, all I get in response are stupid shallow attacks from sheer swine.

Either resolve the contradiction alleged at post 151, or admit to it, and I'll take it as a sign of good faith that you want to know the truth. Until then I can only assume you just want to attack. And I have to face those attacks anyway! Because even if YOU eventually acquiesce, the sharks will still attack! It's not fun.

My offer stands.

Darren Court · Jan 5, 2023

JAL said:
You're trying to shame me - basically bully me - into spilling the beans.

How ironic! A person who thinks we can simply rely on the "infallible voice" now claims extra sensory powers to discern my motive is to shame them! Could there be a better example of irony?

Spilling the beans...Oh, it's special secret known only to those with such greater intelligence.

Darren Court · Jan 5, 2023

JAL said:
Why? For 35 years I've waited to find a few evangelicals willing to face the issue of post 151. And they've had at least 500 years to address it.

JAL said:
Either resolve the contradiction alleged at post 151, or admit to it, and I'll take it as a sign of good faith that you want to know the truth.

No you don't get to dictate the focus on dialogue and when someone asks a serious legitimate and pertinent question to the dialogue, it's nothing more than rude to ignore it and then demand your questions and points get dealt with. You're clearly happy with being rude, providing clues and playing games, but feel insulted when someone calls you out.

Darren Court · Jan 5, 2023

JAL said:
My offer stands.

It's not an offer... it's a demand!
.
Given your evasion in over 200 posts it's pretty clear you have a serious problem. I just wanted to highlight the fact to others who have the misfortune of coming across your time wasting!

JAL · Jan 5, 2023

Darren Court said:
It's not an offer... it's a demand!
.
Given your evasion in over 200 posts it's pretty clear you have a serious problem. I just wanted to highlight the fact to others who have the misfortune of coming across your time wasting!

These posts are more bullying. (Yawn).

Darren Court · Jan 5, 2023

JAL said:
These posts are more bullying. (Yawn).

JAL · Jan 5, 2023

@GDL

After 500 years, still no real answers to a simple question, "If the Bible is your only authority, on what authority do you accept the Bible?"

Secondly, prophecy works. Proven track record. There is no such record for Sola Scriptura, for example no proof that the Bereans understood Scripture sans Direct Revelation (see Mat 11:25).

Convenient how you change the biblical term prophecy to "mysticism". Cheap debating tactic, right? By changing the term, you can pretend my position is unbiblical for purposes of shallow deprecation and attack.

And then you pretend to be surprised that I am reluctant to share my pearls?

JAL · Jan 5, 2023

Paul commanded the whole church to seek the gift of prophecy above all other gifts (1 Cor 14:1).

Notice that verse does not say, "Seek to be Bible scholars as top priority."

GDL · Jan 5, 2023

JAL said:
@GDL

After 500 years, still no real answers to a simple question, "If the Bible is your only authority, on what authority do you accept the Bible?"

Secondly, prophecy works. Proven track record. There is no such record for Sola Scriptura, for example no proof that the Bereans understood Scripture sans Direct Revelation (see Mat 11:25).

Convenient how you change the biblical term prophecy to "mysticism". Cheap debating tactic, right? By changing the term, you can pretend my position is unbiblical for purposes of shallow deprecation and attack.

And then you pretend to be surprised that I am reluctant to share my pearls?

Your opinion. God spoke. Scripture was written. Scripture = written Word. Spirit and Word are parallel (Prov1:23). Word confirms Spirit, Spirit confirms Word. God has much more to say than the Word that's been written. Check the spirits to see if it's the Spirit. Part of the check is whether or not what one is hearing in voice or thought is something covered in writing already.

Biblical prophecy worked. Unbiblical prophecy was capitally punished for a time and thereafter still tested. Debate is about prophecy being for today.

"Prophecy" not changed to "mysticism". That was your misunderstanding. Mysticism is part of the language applied to the critique of Murray and the roots of Pentecostalism but not denying legitimate/Biblical prophecy. Mysticism is fairly common terminology and typically explained in context to varying degrees. So, "cheap" and the rest of your non-productive allegations are your attitude & poor debater's technique coming through because you seem to think those who disagree with you only do so because they are not as intelligent or able as you.

Your pearls may well be plastic replicas. Likely are. You provide little indication that they are otherwise. Probably why few pursue you for them even though you keep dropping the lure.

Time to move on.

Darren Court · Jan 5, 2023

GDL said:
Your opinion. God spoke. Scripture was written. Scripture = written Word. Spirit and Word are parallel (Prov1:23). Word confirms Spirit, Spirit confirms Word. God has much more to say than the Word that's been written. Check the spirits to see if it's the Spirit. Part of the check is whether or not what one is hearing in voice or thought is whether or not what's being heard is something covered in writing already.

Biblical prophecy worked. Unbiblical prophecy was capitally punished for a time and thereafter still tested. Debate is about prophecy being for today.

"Prophecy" not changed to "mysticism". That was your misunderstanding. Mysticism is part of the language applied to the critique of Murray and the roots of Pentecostalism but not denying legitimate/Biblical prophecy. Mysticism is fairly common terminology and typically explained in context to varying degrees. So, "cheap" and the rest of your non-productive allegations are your attitude & poor debater's technique coming through because you seem to think those who disagree with you only do so because they are not as intelligent or able as you.

Your pearls may well be plastic replicas. Likely are. You provide little indication that they are otherwise. Probably why few pursue you for them even though you keep dropping the lure.

Time to move on.

Jal can't move on their stuck in the hamster wheel argument of their own making.

JAL · Jan 5, 2023

GDL said:
Your opinion. God spoke. Scripture was written. Scripture = written Word. Spirit and Word are parallel (Prov1:23). Word confirms Spirit, Spirit confirms Word.

Empty Christian jargon, as already noted. Nothing clear.

GDL said:
God has much more to say than the Word that's been written. Check the spirits to see if it's the Spirit. Part of the check is whether or not what one is hearing in voice or thought is whether or not what's being heard is something covered in writing already.

Addressed a hundred times. Prophecy doesn't make sense without an authoritative Voice because you cannot infallibly test a message by biblical analysis. All exegetes are prone to error.

GDL said:
Biblical prophecy worked. Unbiblical prophecy was capitally punished for a time and thereafter still tested. Debate is about prophecy being for today.

Exactly my point. Why was it punished? Why punish someone if he was using the fallible Sola Scriptura method to verify the message? Is God a jerk? Was He setting up His prophets for failure and capital punishment?

GDL said:
"Prophecy" not changed to "mysticism". That was your misunderstanding. Mysticism is part of the language applied to the critique of Murray and the roots of Pentecostalism but not denying legitimate/Biblical prophecy. Mysticism is fairly common terminology and typically explained in context to varying degrees. So, "cheap" and the rest of your non-productive allegations are your attitude & poor debater's technique coming through because you seem to think those who disagree with you only do so because they are not as intelligent or able as you.

It may be a pejorative term applied to Pentecostalism and I never classified myself as a Pentecostal. All I've talked about is prophecy. In any case it's not a distinctly biblical term and thus becomes an easy target for deprecation and attack. Again, how conveniet.

GDL said:
Your pearls may well be plastic replicas. Likely are. You provide little indication that they are otherwise. Probably why few pursue you for them even though you keep dropping the lure.

Time to move on.

My pearls are not of vital importance. What's important is that Paul told us to seek prophecy, which can't conceivably function without an authoritative Voice.

All my pearls do is explain how that authoritative Voice works. That's all. And it's not complicated.

JAL · Jan 5, 2023

@GDL,

Here's one of the dictionary definitions of mysticism (I'm not saying it's the only one).

"belief characterized by self-delusion or dreamy confusion of thought, especially when based on the assumption of occult qualities or mysterious agencies."

Doing a quick dictionary-lookup on the term "prophecy", I didn't find any such negative connotations.

Darren Court · Jan 5, 2023

JAL said:
Paul commanded the whole church to seek the gift of prophecy above all other gifts (1 Cor 14:1).

Notice that verse does not say, "Seek to be Bible scholars as top priority."

It's hilarious how much effort you go to avoid answering direct points and when shown, you call it bullying!
.
Here you create yet another absurd argument and from history in this thread, it's clear there is no point it looking for any kind of reasonableness else sense demonstrating to you. You will only evade by redirection. However, I post for others who might consider such absurdity...
.
1) 1 Co 14:1.... is about GIFTS! Comparing to studying the scripture is like comparing apples to the big Apple.... absurd. Now if could only find where scripture compares prophecy to God's word!
2) What does Paul says about prophecy and Peter says to about God's word... "As for prophecies, they will pass away;" "but the word of the Lord endures forever. Prophecy doesn't last
3) God's word really isn't that important to you but God's word actually says it is!

"Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path."

"For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart."

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away."

"I have stored up your word in my heart, that I might not sin against you."

"But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves."

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life."

"Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”"

"Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar."

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away."

and a hundred more!

Darren Court · Jan 5, 2023

JAL said:
Doing a quick dictionary-lookup on the term "prophecy", I didn't find any such negative connotations.

Then you need to consult God's living and active word and not the dictionary!!!

" For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect."

" Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you, for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets."

"This is what the LORD Almighty says: “Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the LORD."

"My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will not belong to the council of my people or be listed in the records of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign LORD."
"But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”

" Then the LORD said to me, “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds."

I guess in your mind there are no negative connotations to prophecy but here in scriptural reality there clearly is!

JAL · Jan 5, 2023

Darren Court said:
It's hilarious how much effort you go to avoid answering direct points and when shown, you call it bullying!
.
Here you create yet another absurd argument and from history in this thread, it's clear there is no point it looking for any kind of reasonableness else sense demonstrating to you. You will only evade by redirection. However, I post for others who might consider such absurdity...
.
1) 1 Co 14:1.... is about GIFTS! Comparing to studying the scripture is like comparing apples to the big Apple.... absurd. Now if could only find where scripture compares prophecy to God's word!
2) What does Paul says about prophecy and Peter says to about God's word... "As for prophecies, they will pass away;" "but the word of the Lord endures forever. Prophecy doesn't last
3) God's word really isn't that important to you but God's word actually says it is!

"Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path."

"For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart."

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away."

"I have stored up your word in my heart, that I might not sin against you."

"But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves."

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life."

"Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”"

"Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar."

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away."

and a hundred more!

Hilarious? My sentiments exactly. Your whole post is hilarious. You're equating a history book called the Bible with the spoken divine Word of God's mouth. The spoken divine Word (Isa 55:11) is what came to prophets such as Abraham. To put it loosely, prophecy IS the divine Word:

"The [divine] word of the Lord came to [the prophet] Abram in a vision [speaking promises]." (Gen 15:1).

A history book is powerless. The divine Word is the actual power of God.

I'll admit that the biblical writers blurred the distinction at times - that's to be expected because the history book is inspired by the divine Word. But that doesn't mean we should be foolish enough to conflate the two.

When you have something reasonable to say, I'll take a closer look.

JAL · Jan 5, 2023

Darren Court said:
Then you need to consult God's living and active word and not the dictionary!!!

" For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect."

" Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you, for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets."

"This is what the LORD Almighty says: “Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the LORD."

"My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will not belong to the council of my people or be listed in the records of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign LORD."
"But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”

" Then the LORD said to me, “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds."

I guess in your mind there are no negative connotations to prophecy but here in scriptural reality there clearly is!

Are you trying to argue that prophecy doesn't work? Can't be counted on? Throw out your Bible, then, seems you can't trust the writings of prophets.

Solving the Problem of false doctrine

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