Sola scriptura

sculleywr · Aug 14, 2016

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Not at all. You were told that, or for some reason believe it.

Jesus never said the Scripture was passed by tradition.
He rebuked those who opposed Scripture and who taught traditions in error.
So-called 'holy tradition' is contrary to Scripture, so Jesus rebukes it also.

The last sentence is an unproven premise that is untrue, thus rendering the entire argument illogical.

sculleywr · Aug 14, 2016

Jason0047 said:
You would not know about Jesus and His gospel, and teachings if it was not for His Word. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. Oh and I do have a certainty and an authority in God's Word. The Jesus as described in Scripture has transformed my life. Also, the evidences that back up God's Word clearly show it is a divine book.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/general-list-of-biblical-evidences.7833944/

...

And here we see you violationg several rules in this forum. Sorry, but you just landed a ticket to the block train. Would you like to recant the first sentence where you said I wasn't a Christian, or shall I block and report?

sculleywr · Aug 14, 2016

AnticipateHisComing said:
Learn the truth. The church did not author scripture. The church is not the authority behind the words of scripture. The Bible is known as God's word, not the church's word. All the church did was to through away trash and say it was not to be included as God's word. From this you claim a continued authority above God's word.

Let me point out how absurd your logic is. I read Jesus' words as recorded by the apostles. I then declare them to be true. Therefore I am now a higher authority. You would think me a fool for making such a claim. I think the same for your proof to having higher authority than God's word.

So the Apostles weren't the Church. Good to know. The Church was the tool God used to author (through the Apostles), preserve (through the presbyters), and compile (through Athanasius and the Councils) the Scriptures. It was there before Scripture was penned (the Ekklessia Israel preceded the Old Testament, while the Ekklessia Ek Christos preceded the New).

You read Christ's words as recorded by the Apostles, then approved and defined as being such by the Church.

As to higher authority, Pillar and Ground of the Truth will always be a higher authority than profitable. But of course, you will deny this despite the fact that it is what the Scripture plainly says. This is Exhibit A of you being above the Scripture in your own life. You don't like the position Scripture gives the Church, so you rationalize it.

sculleywr · Aug 14, 2016

civilwarbuff said:
Could not be more wrong. God is my highest authority and He speaks to me through his word and the Holy Spirit. Is your church your highest authority or is God? Does God speak to you through his word and the Holy Spirit or does your church speak to you for Him instead?

Pretty words, but unfounded and unprovable. God is the highest authority, but the Church is the highest earthly authority. the Church is the Pillar and Ground of the Truth and it is the Spirit which makes it so. The Spirit never leads in a way that is contrary to the Church because the Church is led by Christ, Who is the Head of the Church, and the Spirit will never go contrary to Christ.

civilwarbuff · Aug 14, 2016

sculleywr said:
The Scripture never claims to hold everything we need to worship God, because it, quite frankly, doesn't.

Then what is missing from scripture that is needed to worship God that is found in holy tradition? And who is the author of that tradition?

mark kennedy · Aug 14, 2016

Constantine the Sinner said:
There are two difficulties here.

1. No Scriptural canon is established by Scripture, so the canon itself is purely tradition.

2. There is no verse that says Scripture is comprehensive, meaning the doctrine of Sola scripture is itself not derived from Scripture.

You say that without any Scriptural reference:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (2 Timothy 3:16)

If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. (1 Cor. 14:37)

Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. (2 Peter 3:16)

Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old. (Matthew 13:52)

The New Testament canon embodies the Apostolic Doctrine. The subject of the canon of Scripture has been the subject of many a doctoral thesis, not a subject to be trifled with:

Philip Schaff says that "the council of Hippo in 393, and the third (according to another reckoning the sixth) council of Carthage in 397, under the influence of Augustine, who attended both, fixed the catholic canon of the Holy Scriptures, including the Apocrypha of the Old Testament, ... This decision of the transmarine church however, was subject to ratification; and the concurrence of the Roman see it received when Innocent I and Gelasius I (A.D. 414) repeated the same index of biblical books. This canon remained undisturbed till the sixteenth century, and was sanctioned by the council of Trent at its fourth session." According to Lee Martin McDonald, the Revelation was added to the list in 419. These councils were convened under the influence of St. Augustine, who regarded the canon as already closed. (Wikipedia)

Grace and peace,
Mark

civilwarbuff · Aug 14, 2016

sculleywr said:
Pretty words, but unfounded and unprovable. God is the highest authority, but the Church is the highest earthly authority. the Church is the Pillar and Ground of the Truth and it is the Spirit which makes it so. The Spirit never leads in a way that is contrary to the Church because the Church is led by Christ, Who is the Head of the Church, and the Spirit will never go contrary to Christ.

That is assuming that Messiah is leading the Church and not man. Messiah had harsh words for the religious leaders for excluding God and placing themselves before Him.

civilwarbuff · Aug 14, 2016

sculleywr said:
Pretty words, but unfounded and unprovable.

Proveable to me and that is all that matters.....

mark kennedy · Aug 14, 2016

Constantine the Sinner said:
1. Which makes the conception of Scripture as exhaustive, questionable. There were many different canons of the New Testament in ancient times; several that weren't heretical, but in fact just included fewer books; are these canons with fewer books, just as doctrinally comprehensive as the standard canon today?

2. No, it says Scripture has to support Sola Scriptura, which Scripture doesn't.

The canon of Scripture isn't a modern phenomenon like the ramblings of liberal theologians who deny it. It has a history that spans the two thousand years of the ministry began by Christ and the Apostles. That Apostolic witness is recorded once and for all in the canon of the New Testament:

The concept we have today of a completed Bible was formulated early in the history of the church. By the end of the second century all but seven books (Hebrews, 2 and 3 John, 2 Peter, Jude, James, and Revelation) were recognized as apostolic, and by the end of the fourth century all twenty-seven books in our present canon were recognized by all the churches of the West. After the Damasine Council of Rome in A.D. 332 and the third Council of Carthage in A.D. 397 the question of the Canon was closed in the West. By the year 500 the whole Greek-speaking church had also accepted all the books in our present New Testament. (The Canon of Scripture)

It most certainly does have a Scriptural basis. Arguments to the contrary would appear to be based on your assertion alone.

Have a nice day
Mark

civilwarbuff · Aug 14, 2016

sculleywr said:
Would you like to recant the first sentence where you said I wasn't a Christian, or shall I block and report?

He did not say that
And don't posture so much especially since you obliquely accused me of following Satan:

sculleywr said:
You CLAIM to be led by the Spirit. So does Joseph Smith. What makes you more right than Joseph Smith? Nothing.

The fact is that you are led by your personal PERCEPTION of what MIGHT or MIGHT NOT be the Spirit. For all I know, the spirit you follow could as easily be Satan himself. I have no way to know that. Or you might be lying both to me and yourself about what you follow, which is pretty much taking us back to the original statement. Because not even YOU can know for certain that you are following the Spirit, since you are not wiser than the demons that would want to trick you into thinking exactly that, the reality is that it is your personal perception that rules. I follow the Pillar and Ground of the Truth. I stand upon that. The Church was established as that and never fell. You stand on a perception.

And no, even if Satan himself were personally deceiving you into believing you follow the Spirit, it does not mean I am saying you follow Satan intentionally. It means you follow a wolf in sheep's clothing.

yeshuaslavejeff · Aug 14, 2016

QUOTE="Jason0047, post: 69998675, member: 356113" You would not know

about Jesus and His gospel, and teachings

if it was not for His Word. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God.

Oh and I do have a certainty and an authority in God's Word.

The Jesus as described in Scripture has transformed my life.

Also, the evidences that back up God's Word clearly show it is a divine book.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/general-list-of-biblical-evidences.7833944/
...QUOTE

Yes. Scripture. His Word. Truth.

mark kennedy · Aug 14, 2016

yeshuaslavejeff said:
QUOTE="Jason0047, post: 69998675, member: 356113" You would not know

about Jesus and His gospel, and teachings

if it was not for His Word. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God.

Oh and I do have a certainty and an authority in God's Word.

The Jesus as described in Scripture has transformed my life.

Also, the evidences that back up God's Word clearly show it is a divine book.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/general-list-of-biblical-evidences.7833944/
...QUOTE

Yes. Scripture. His Word. Truth.

The authority of Scripture is inextricably linked to the doctrine of Christ and the Apostles witnessed to in the Scriptures:

Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. (Ephesians 2:19-20)

There are indeed many reasons that the preservation of Scripture and the authority of those testimonies is an embodiment of the Word of God. Bear in mind when we embrace the Scriptures as the Word of God that the Gospel leads us the Christ, the author and finisher of our faith. We as believers should have a spiritual sensitivity to the voice of God in Scripture and in the proclamation of the Gospel.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome (understand) it. (John 1:1-5)

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. (John 10:27)

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. (Hebrews 3:15)

Grace and peace,
Mark

Bible Highlighter · Aug 14, 2016

sculleywr said:
And here we see you violationg several rules in this forum. Sorry, but you just landed a ticket to the block train. Would you like to recant the first sentence where you said I wasn't a Christian, or shall I block and report?

Please show me where I was talking specifically about you not being a Christian within the post that you quoted or any other post written towards you specifically for that matter.

...

yeshuaslavejeff · Aug 14, 2016

mark kennedy said:
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. (John 10:27)

Amein.
"baaaa" "baaaaa" "baaaaa"

mark kennedy · Aug 14, 2016

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Amein.
"baaaa" "baaaaa" "baaaaa"

An old preacher was visiting my church years ago and he was discussion his visits to the Holy Land. He tells the story of how one day he was at a watering hole where several shepherds were watering their flocks and they all just mixed in together. He said he was wondering how they would separate them. He said when they were all done each of the shepherds walked away singing songs and the sheep ran after them, each trying to get as close as possible.

Grace and peace,
Mark

sculleywr · Aug 14, 2016

Jason0047 said:
You would not know about Jesus and His gospel, and teachings if it was not for His Word. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. Oh and I do have a certainty and an authority in God's Word. The Jesus as described in Scripture has transformed my life. Also, the evidences that back up God's Word clearly show it is a divine book.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/general-list-of-biblical-evidences.7833944/

...

I apologize for misreading this. Welcome to the side effect show. lol

Anyways, I would not know of the Scripture were it not for the Church, and there were millions who heard the gospel without a single word of written text. Take, for example, the people of gaul in the second century, to whom Irenaeus was sent as a missionary. They had no written language, and yet, in the absence of written texts, they proved themselves wiser than those who had access to written texts, for they turned away the heresies of Marcion and Valentinus, while those who had written texts did not. And so we see those who had Scripture turning away the gospel and those who had no Scriptures turning TO the gospel.

Notice that the text even says that faith comes by HEARINg the Word of God, not by reading them. A person can hear the message of Scripture without it having been written, for the Word of God, being Christ, is not limited to the Scriptures. I would not have the Scriptures, however, if it had not been for the Church, for the Church was the method whereby the Spirit preserved the Scriptures, along with their proper understanding. The Scriptures are all well and good, but Arius had the same Scriptures and ran along into heresy despite that, for his understanding of the Scripture was different. I am certain he believed he was properly teaching the Scriptures. He was, by all accounts, sincere in his belief, and aside from his doctrine, he lived a highly moral life. But he was still a heretic. He thought he had the Spirit, but he did not. The way by which the Church knew this was not by Sola Scriptura. They did not use Scripture alone to disprove Arius. They spoke built on the same faith of their forefathers, rejecting the innovations of Arius because it violated the Tradition of the Church. As John Chrystostom said: "Is it Tradition? Seek no further."

yeshuaslavejeff · Aug 14, 2016

mark kennedy said:
An old preacher was visiting my church years ago and he was discussion his visits to the Holy Land. He tells the story of how one day he was at a watering hole where several shepherds were watering their flocks and they all just mixed in together. He said he was wondering how they would separate them. He said when they were all done each of the shepherds walked away singing songs and the sheep ran after them, each trying to get as close as possible.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Amein, and shalom in Yeshua to you and your household TODAY.

re "each trying to get as close as possible" .....
Amein again.
Instead of , as Yeshua warns, running after 'credentials' over there, or 'formula for salvation or healing' over here, or any such thing (false teachers/ false prophets/ deceivers ; very common then and also TODAY) ...

i.e. sticking CLOSE AS POSSIBLE TO YHWH'S WORD. Not disputing YHWH'S SPIRIT OR YESHUA OR TRUTH, not diluting it with worldly nor carnal nonsense and not going after anything that is not the Shepherd's VOICE.

Not going far and wide to 'discover' new evils to dabble in, nor traps to fall in...

Always sticking close to Yhwh, always every day seeking Yhwh's Kingdom and NOT the enemies treasures no matter how they attract the lust of the eye or the lust of the flesh or the pride of life.

REJECTING all that which is not of Yhwh. Renouncing it all.

Staying in the Truth, Yhwh Delighting, Yhwh Pleasing by Faith in Yeshua.

sculleywr · Aug 14, 2016

civilwarbuff said:
He did not say that
And don't posture so much especially since you obliquely accused me of following Satan:

That isn't accusing you of intending to follow Satan. That is stating that you could be deceived by Satan, which is something that could be true of any individual. Any individual is vulnerable to the deceptions of Satan, for Scripture tells us that plainly. I did not say anything about you that Scripture doesn't already say about literally every single human being from Adam until the Second Coming of Christ. This is why we need the Church, because Satan has dragged countless sincere, Christ-loving people into one deception after another, into one heresy after another. I know a person who truly loves Christ and truly does want to follow Him, but cannot bring himself to believe in the Trinity. I do think he is sincere in his desire, but something in him is preventing him from accepting that fundamental Truth. Will he be saved? I do not know, for salvation is not something I can know of a person.

But he truly believes he is led by the Spirit into rejecting the Trinity. I actually know several people who believe this. They are all extremely sincere, extremely moral people. But they are, for all of their sincerity, sincerely deceived into following a doctrine of Satan, for that is what the heresy of Arianism is. What they believe to be following the Spirit is, in truth, following Satan in disguise. So when you claim to be following the Spirit, and what you are preaching is something that is only 500-ish years old, I'll keep my doubts, because we must preserve some skepticism for all new teachings, for there is nothing new that is true. All that we needed was delivered to the Apostles by Christ Himself. Anything that was not there in the beginning can only ever be something that is harmless to the Faith. It can never be part of the Faith.

sculleywr · Aug 14, 2016

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Amein.
"baaaa" "baaaaa" "baaaaa"

baaa baaa bareh!

yeshuaslavejeff · Aug 14, 2016

sculleywr said:
Anyways, I would not know of the Scripture were it not for the Church

I and many others learned the Scripture, Yhwh's Word, from Yhwh IN SPITE OF THE CHURCH.
We were all lied to. Deceived. Mislead. Taught many errors IN CHURCH.
Yhwh DELIVERED US
according to His Grace and Good Pleasure in Yeshua HaMashiach.

Until we tested everything according to His Word,
Until HE showed us the Truth according to His Word,
we blindly accepted what the "church" had taught us.

No more. Now that we Know Yeshua , now that we are born again in Him, Immersed in Him, we Hear His Voice. and we never trust man again.(without testing to verify if true or not; by HIS VOICE, by SCRIPTURE, as HE SAYS).

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