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Sola Scriptura circa 700 AD

HTacianas

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If you hold to the doctrine of sola scriptura, meaning scripture alone as the source of all doctrines, when did it begin?

In 700 AD all Christians used the longer canon, meaning that the bible had in it what protestants call the apocrypha. In 700 AD a Christian would have prayed for the dead and given alms for the dead based on II Maccabees 12:42-44.

When did sola scriptura end that practice?
 

Albion

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Those books were carried in the canon only provisionally; and there are no essential beliefs that are established thanks to them anyway. The issue is not as your question supposes, and certainly not praying for the dead per the passage in 2 Maccabees.
 
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HTacianas

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All of the original Apostolic Churches pray for the dead. In the Eastern Churches the longer canon is the only canon.
 
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Albion

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All of the original Apostolic Churches pray for the dead.
But only in the sense that the church prays that God would be merciful to the faithful departed. The idea that by prayer we can change the eternal destiny of a particular individual after death is certainly not Scriptural. The passage you cited is most often use to try to prove Purgatory and the practices that relate to it.
 
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HTacianas

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Regardless of the purpose of prayers for the dead, there are still prayers for the dead. Among the original Churches anyway.

Today, among the majority of communities that reject prayers for the dead, the Maccabees have been removed from the bible. So there is no mention of the practice.
 
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Albion

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Regardless of the purpose of prayers for the dead, there are still prayers for the dead. Among the original Churches anyway.
Well, surely you agree that we are free to ask God for anything, even silly things like for our team to win the game and, also for things that are impossible. I have the feeling that the praying for the dead which you are thinking about assumes that the dead will be benefitted by the prayers--loosed from their sins, as the Jews described in Maccabees sought.
 
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eleos1954

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Acts 17:30

30 Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all men everywhere to repent.

We know Jesus taught from the Old Testament
and they are based primarily upon the Hebrew Bible (or Tanakh), a collection of ancient religious writings by the Israelites.

The Masoretic Text was used as the basis for translations of the Old Testament in Protestant Bibles such as the King James Version and American Standard Version and (after 1943) for some versions of Catholic Bibles, replacing the Vulgate translation, although the Vulgate had itself already been revised in light of the Masoretic text in the 1500s.

A lot of info here:
Masoretic Text - Wikipedia

Study of the Dead Sea Scrolls has increased the faith of Bible-believers. Why? Because they prove that the hand-copied texts that have come down from the Masoretic scribes are accurate.

The Dead Sea Scrolls are noteworthy because they prove the integrity of the Hebrew Bible. What is significant is that the Scrolls can be positively dated to around 100 BC, which makes them a thousand years older than the oldest texts previously available.

2nd Timothy 3

15 From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, ...

Theres a lot of history on these topics ... pretty interesting

Sola Scriptura! Amen.
 
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HTacianas

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This is an excerpt from the Confession of Dositheus, from the Synod of Jerusalem, 1672.

" the souls of those involved in mortal sins, who have not departed in despair but while still living in the body, though without bringing forth any fruits of repentance, have repented — by pouring forth tears, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and finally by showing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbor, and which the Catholic Church has from the beginning rightly called satisfaction — [their souls] depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. "
 
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Lost4words

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People decided to 'go it alone'. They parted from the true teaching of the early church.
 
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HTacianas

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I understand the history of it. And yes, the KJV was translated from the Masoretic Text. That's why old testament quotes in the new testament in the KJV don't match the old testament verses.

The Masoretic Text varies from the Septuagint, and they both vary from the Dead Sea Scrolls. That's because there never was a standard text of the old testament.
 
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eleos1954

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and what are the major differences?
 
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redleghunter

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You mean praying for the dead who committed mortal sin? When did that become an ancient church practice?
 
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eleos1954

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Most of the differences are merely wording.

Google "textual criticism".

Discovered in the Qumran region near the Dead Sea beginning in 1947, these scrolls are dated to as early as 200 BC and contain parts of every book in the Old Testament except Esther. Comparisons of the Dead Sea Scrolls to the Masoretic Text and the Septuagint show that where there are differences between the Masoretic Text and the Septuagint, approximately 95% of those differences are shared between the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Masoretic text, while only 5% of those differences are shared between the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint. Does this mean that the Septuagint is unreliable and that our Old Testament is wrought with contradictory sources? No. It is imperative to note that these “variations” are extremely minor (i.e., grammatical errors, spelling differences or missing words) and do not affect the meaning of sentences and paragraphs. (An exception is the book of Jeremiah, in which the actual passages are arranged differently.) None of the differences, however, come close to affecting any area of teaching or doctrine. The majority of the Septuagint, Masoretic Text and the Dead Sea Scrolls are remarkably similar and have dispelled unfounded theories that the Biblical text has been corrupted by time and conspiracy. Furthermore, these variations do not call into question the infallibility of God in preserving His word.

Even then, the Bible has redundancy built into its text, and anything significant is told more than once. If grammatical mistakes were introduced that makes a point unclear, it is clarified in several other places in scripture.

The point is ..... the differences are minor, extremely minor.

Sola Scriptura

God Bless.
 
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Athanasius377

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In 700 AD a Christian would have prayed for the dead and given alms for the dead based on II Maccabees 12:42-44.
You mean pray for damned who committed mortal sin. When did that practice begin?

38 Then Judas assembled his army and went to the city of Adullam. As the seventh day was coming on, they purified themselves according to the custom, and they kept the Sabbath there.
39 On the next day, as by that time it had become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kinsmen in the sepulchers of their fathers. 40 Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen. 41 So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; 42 and they turned to prayer, imploring that the sin that had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. 43 He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of 2,000 drachmas of silver and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. 44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.



Engelbrecht, E. A. (Ed.). (2012). The Apocrypha: The Lutheran Edition: Text (2 Mac 12:38–44). Saint Louis, MO: Concordia Publishing House.


The Longer canon as you put it actually teaches that it is actually not part of the canon at all!

37 So I took the five men, as he commanded me, and we proceeded to the field and remained there. 38 And on the next day, behold, a voice called me, saying, “Ezra, open your mouth and drink what I give you to drink.” 39 Then I opened my mouth, and behold, a full cup was offered to me; it was full of something like water, but its color was like fire. 40 And I took it and drank; and when I had drunk it, my heart poured forth understanding, and wisdom increased in my breast, and 5 my spirit retained its memory; 41 and my mouth was opened and was no longer closed. 42 And the Most High gave understanding to the five men, and by turns they wrote what was dictated, in characters that they did not know. They sat forty days and wrote during the daytime and ate their bread at night. 43 As for me, I spoke in the daytime and was not silent at night. 44 So during the forty days ninety-four 7 books were written. 45 And when the forty days were ended, the Most High spoke to me, saying, “Make public the twenty-four books that you wrote first, and let the worthy and the unworthy read them; 46 but keep the seventy that were written last, in order to give them to the wise among your people. 47 For in them is the spring of understanding, the fountain of wisdom, and the river of knowledge.” 48 And I did so.

Engelbrecht, E. A. (Ed.). (2012). The Apocrypha: The Lutheran Edition: Text (2 Esd 14:37–48). Saint Louis, MO: Concordia Publishing House.

There's the traditional 24 books of the Tanakh. The number will vary between 22 and 24 depending if the collection puts Ruth with Judges and Lamentations with Jeremiah. Flavius Josephus makes the same point in Against Apion:

"For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another [as the Greeks have], but only twenty-two books, which contain the records of all the past times; which are justly believed to be divine; (39) and of them five belong to Moses, which contain his laws and the traditions of the origin of mankind till his death. This interval of time was little short of three thousand years; (40) but as to the time from the death of Moses till the reign of Artaxerxes, king of Persia, who reigned after Xerxes, the prophets, who were after Moses, wrote down what was done in their times in thirteen books. The remaining four books contain hymns to God, and precepts for the conduct of human life. (41) It is true, our history hath been written since Artaxerxes very particularly, but hath not been esteemed of the like authority with the former by our forefathers, because there hath not been an exact succession of prophets since that time . . . "

Josephus, F., & Whiston, W. (1987). The works of Josephus: complete and unabridged (p. 776). Peabody: Hendrickson.

So what good is the Longer Canon? Perhaps providing a way to ward off demons and cure cataracts.


2 Now as they proceeded on their way they came at evening to the Tigris river and camped there. 3 Then the young man went down to wash himself. A fish leaped up from the river and would have swallowed the young man; 4 and the angel said to him, “Catch the fish.” So the young man seized the fish and threw it up on the land. 5 Then the angel said to him, “Cut open the fish and take the heart and liver and gall and put them away safely.” 6 So the young man did as the angel told him; and they roasted and ate the fish.
And they both continued on their way until they came near to Ecbatana. 7 Then the young man said to the angel, “Brother Azarias, of what use is the liver and heart and gall of the fish?” 8 He replied, “As for the heart and the liver, if a demon or evil spirit gives trouble to anyone, you make a smoke from these before the man or woman, and that person will never be troubled again. 9 And as for the gall, anoint with it a man who has white films in his eyes, and he will be cured.”



Engelbrecht, E. A. (Ed.). (2012). The Apocrypha: The Lutheran Edition: Text (Tob 6:2–9). Saint Louis, MO: Concordia Publishing House.
 
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HTacianas

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Am I to take it that you have decided the Christian canon?
 
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Athanasius377

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Am I to take it that you have decided the Christian canon?
No, the Jews did. This is the Old Testament after all.

Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? 2 Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God.

Rom 3:1-2 ESV
 
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