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So, Whats wrong with the WELS Church?

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Jim47

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Strange question?

I have asked one very good friend here this same question, but never got an answer. I am not looking to slam anyones church reguardless if its Lutheran or whatever it may be.

The reason I ask this is not because I think there is anything wrongs with WELS teachings or beliefs, its because everyone else is constantly pointing problems within there church body.

I know of NO problems within the WELS synod, but for some reason we are completely overlooked by anyone searching for another church. Why is that? Why does evryone try to look for ways to correct their church problems and neglect to look at the one church body who has no problems.

I hope no one takes these questions the wrong way, because I am certainly not looking for an argument. I'm just completely baffled.

Peace to all!
 

JVAC

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...because your in it.

Just kidding, actually I just think WELS policies are a little too conservative for the average american. Americans are into wierd stuff, not very orthodox stuff.

-James
 
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filosofer

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There are critical issues regarding the Office of the Ministry, and the understanding Church and priesthood of all believers. The inroads of the Church Growth movement have caused great dissension.

So, compared to other Lutheran boides, these topics don't seem as earth-shattering, but they are not to be ignored either.

In Christ's love,
filo
 
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Jim47

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I really appreciate your answer, but if you don't mind could you eleborate a little more as I have never even heard these mentioned by anyone before?
 
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Zoomer

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The main reason that I am not WELS is because I would not be allowed to vote.
I agree with WELS that women should not be Pastors but I think we should be allowed to vote in congregational meetings. I also think that we should be able to serve as heads of boards and such.
 
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SPALATIN

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To be honest with you I know of no true problems with the WELS, however, many people already have preconceived ideas where the WELS is concerned because of women's issues (voting). I think filo and JVAC have given some other reasons as well.
 
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BalaamsAss51

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Hello Jim47.

Filosofer nails it with his comment "There are critical issues regarding the Office of the Ministry, and the understanding Church and priesthood of all believers. The inroads of the Church Growth movement have caused great dissension.

I would offer a section from The Church and Her Fellowship, Ministry, and Governance by Pastor Kurt E. Marquart, part of the Confessional Lutheran Dogmatics series.

Excursus - "Misouri" and "Wisconsin" on Church and Ministry

"Old Missouri" (Walther and Pieper) and "Old Wisconsin" (Hoenecke) did not differ over church and ministry. Both synods shared the standard Lutheran dogmatic tradition, which they reappropriated respectfully but not slavishly. The chief impetus towards "New Wisconsin" came, it seems, from the historian J.P. Koehler who held that in the 19th century German disputes about church and ministry, only Hofling's position was "completely free and correct according to Scripture." Modern Wisconsin's Statements on Church and Misistry formally reject Jofling's stand: "It would be wrong to trace the origin of this public ministry to mere expediency (Hofling)." Materially, however, the Wisconsin Statements suggest Hofling's influence, for instance in the virtual identification of priesthood and ministry, and the apparent failure to distinquish the one Gospel ministry from auxiliary offices. Hofling, too, admitted the "divine institution" of an abstract "public ministry" (Predigtamt) held in common by all. A related and very basic difficulty is the Statements' concept of "vaarious groupings in Jesus' name for the proclamation of His Gospel," of which "all lie on the same plane. They are all church in one and the same sense..." These "groupings" are not only local congregations and synods ("larger groupings"), but also "other groupings," of all of which is said: "The specific forms in which believers group themselves together...have not been prescribed by the Lord to His New Testament Church". Church, ministry, means of grace, marks of the church, all seem to float about too abstractly here, tied too loosely to concrete divine instituting mandates.

"New Missouri," on the other hand, has tended to see the churchly nature and dignity of the local congregation and its ministry more and more in juridical or organizational, rather than theological terms. Hence T. Graebner's fateful denial that anything beyoud a local congregation is really church: "We can say, synod, territorial church, a formation like the EDiD belong to Christendom, are a part of it, but are not church". This attitude, reflected also in A Statement of 1945, implied that synods and their officials might behave in unchurchly ways, since they were not churches and ministers anyway. This fostered organizationalism and unionism.

There is more, but I'll not post it unless someone would like me to

Pax
 
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BigNorsk

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I'm going to tackle Jim's question.

I think a couple of things come into play.

First, the WELS has little or no image with people who aren't at least Lutheran. They are so concerned about unionism and sycretism that they are basically absent from any public activity that isn't basically limited to completely under their control. And they don't do many such activities themselves.

So people don't see them, probably couldn't or wouldn't name them.

Now if they were real active in outreach, it would be different. But in that characteristic that is certainly not limited to WELS, you just don't see much door to door or other kinds of outreach. It is kind of a waiting for the person looking for a church to walk in the door.

Now that isn't to say that there is no reaching out especially by individual members, but I would have to say it is not a church priority.

There is another thing that happens with people who are searching. If your congregation is one that the seaker has disagreed with in the past, even if he might now agree, there is a tendency to not remember what the disagreement was about only the feeling. So, I do believe the image of the WELS is one of hard to get along with, more concerned with condemning than helping, and so on.

I believe the WELS are so concerned with unionism and syncretism that they are a bit of Lutheran Amish if you will. All you have to do to shut up and remove a WELS minister from the scene is bring out anyone he doesn't agree with. Since WELS would see him participating as giving his approval to the other, they leave and leave the people to listen to false teachers.

How many people outside a WELS congregation have ever heard a WELS minister preach the law and Gospel or even pray. Very, very few. How is the Word of God to have it's effect when noone gets to hear it? If WELS is out there on the streets proclaiming the Word of God then I guess I am wrong, but I have never heard of such a thing. They expect the Word of God to have it's effects on someone so far away he cannot hear. Is that faith or testing God, expecting him to provide a harvest that is not being sowed?

They aren't alone in that problem, it is really very common among Lutherans, even those who couldn't care less about unionism and syncretism. But those who are really concerned about that problem have no recognition by the public. That public image could be built up by consistent work and outreach, but in general Lutheran churches seem much more filled with people there to get served rather than to serve.

It has been said that people don't care what you know until they know how much you care. There is much truth in that. Lutheranism in general hasn't been doing a very good job of expressing our care of others.

I would ask this, does anyone's congregation make a real effort to welcome and invite people new to their area to the church. You know an actually knock on the door Welcome Wagon type of thing? How about that old insurance salemen thing of reading the paper and approaching people at life changes. For instance, a couple has a baby, announcement is in the paper. Now we no that in this world, a lot of people tend to let religion slide until something like a child and the responsibility that comes with that child hits people in the face.

How about a letter that says something like the following:



It wouldn't hurt to enclose a couple of other things like a church directory and map and a basic explanation of beliefs.

I have never seen a church that makes an effort at outreach that doesn't grow. Even the things of the Church Growth movement of which I am less than enthusiastic get people in the door. But if the people refuse to reach out any other way, I guess they are better than nothing. And that is basically the decision that I see a lot of Lutheran congregations that do want to reach out making. It's the "what we're doing isn't working" syndrome. People want to do something, anything, so they adopt practices that seem to be working for others. Then the other part of the congregation just sits and criticizes the whole thing because they don't like it. But I have yet to see the critics stand up and prove that their congregation doesn't need to go that way by getting out and getting people in the door. I have concluded that their basic complaint is that they don't want to be bothered. They are probably correct in at least some of their complaints, but they are wrong if they do not provide a working alternative.

There you go, always dangerous to ask me what I think.

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Jim47

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I thank you very much for your comments and explaination, but I'm afraid that you talked a little over my head. This is not your , but mine. Therefore I can't really comment on anything you said with certainty. I would like to ask you to explain the statement above that I made red.


By the way, this is the first post of yours that I have read, so I will offer you a Lutheran welcome. Jim
 
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BalaamsAss51

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Hello Jim47

Well, I'd guess you'd have to ask Pastor Marquart.
New Missouri is the Missouri Synod of the last 75 years or so, and there is a holdover from Walther that stresses the congregation as being church, the EDiD was the church in Germany. These things are not straightforward nor do are they easily answered in one or two sentences. I've found that after you get beyond one paragraph most of the people on these forums lose interest. Most have been miserably taught, and spew forth the greatest nonsense. A symptom of Americainism I guess, do it quick, sound bite theology. None of this is over your head I'm sure. It's just that we like the quick fix, and that's not possible with God.

Pax
 
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Jim47

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Again I thank you for your offering.
 
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BigNorsk

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Well it's my 500th post, better make it worthwhile.

I really wasn't posting with the idea doing a lot of debate. It was mostly to convey the public image I believe the WELS has which is mostly-it doesn't have one. Or maybe that isn't quite correct, it probably gets the image most people would think of from the LCMS or the ELCA because they are larger and more known, or even from the Roman Catholics since they would all be more familiar to most than the WELS.

I don't think when the ELCA or the LCMS are busy fighting that people outside of Lutheranism pay any attention past Lutheran. Here's an interesting exercise if you want to take the time. Make a little questionaire, put some things that are true and some that aren't and have some people outside the church fill them out. Wanna bet on whether most think the news releases for the last year about the ELCA apply to the WELS? When was the last time someone mentioned they heard your church was considering allowing homosexual ministers, or is associated with the Anglicans? I would guess not too long unless you just don't talk about such things with others.

I think I have seen that the WELS is starting to podcast some services is that correct? That sure looks like a low cost way to reach out to people. And I think each synod should actually be collecting good sermons for people to see on the websites. My synod is as deficient there as any.

I hope you didn't take my statements to mean that I don't think the WELS does any outreach at all, but the question really is, why is there so few volunteers to help? Do we only think of missions as something done in a third world country?

And I've spent some time trying to figure out how you are supposed to evangelize because as I understand the WELS position members aren't even supposed to pray with those not in communion. So if I am at someone's door trying to get them to come to church, it wouldn't be proper to even pray with them for God's guidance. I haven't been able to really find a position on reading the Bible with others, that seems to me too to be a worship.

For instance from the WELS site:

[size=+2]
Now there you are, asking them to come. They aren't members, at least not of your church, maybe not even Christians. So you can't worship with them. So what do you do? Tell them you are going to silently pray for a moment, but please don't join in, it wouldn't be proper?

Here is an interesting question, not because it is correct, but how would a lifelong member of the WELS get such an impression, and if people within the church are getting that impression, what is the impression outside the church?


[/size]

Now I know that the WELS is not attempting to prevent people from hearing or having contact with the truth, it is concerned with the flip side, exposing people to error. I know the concern is that participation will cause members to be led astray and introduce mistakes and heresies. That is a real concern. I do think it limits outreach, maybe not so much through actual policy as maybe a misunderstanding of policy. It would be like the school that thinks they must prevent kids from praying in order to be in compliance with the law, while actually preventing the kids is against the law. What they aren't to do is to lead the kids in prayer or require prayer.

There is over 300 questions on the WELS site concerning fellowship. Why is it that people are having so much trouble understanding it? I'd bet there are WELS members that don't do things that would be okay just because they are concerned with the policy, and better safe than sorry.

I thought this is an interesting Question.

Interesting isn't it. Looks like it's taking off and doing real well getting people in. Being WELS doesn't appear to be an insurmountable obstacle. So are they wrong? Are they being nonconfessional? Or is it that others love adiaphora so much it isn't treated as such?

I notice the statement against the Church Growth Movement, I would guess that this area is probably the biggest disagreement going on in the WELS right now. Am I right?

Now maybe the site has changed some since the question, but the WELS is mentioned, do you see anything against confessional Lutheranism on it's site? We do discuss in the Lutheran Brethren of getting rid of the Lutheran name because of the baggage it carries of what others have taught people the name means. (Not going to happen) Not because of any shame in being Lutheran, but it is difficult when the word seems more misunderstood than understood. We usually get asked first if it's like the ELCA then the LCMS and then usually get a blank look. More than a few people come to my local congregation despite it being Lutheran (their words not mine though there was a time...)

When you see why people choose a congregation, doctrine would probably rank fairly high on a survey, but few are the people that will go to a doctrinally pure, unfriendly church. Now I don't think the WELS people are unfriendly at all as individuals, but as a synod, that is their reputation. I think a lot of your good potential members never will set foot in the door, partially because of that image. How to change that image?

One question about outreach. What percentage of your church budget or effort is spent on organized outreach? Count things like transportation, advertising, radio, tv, webcasts, mailings to nonmembers, visitations to nonmembers, those sort of things.

One last thing, a lot of people blast Rick Warren's "Purpose driven Life" but have you ever read his "Purpose Driven Church". I thought it was the much superior of the two, and even if one doesn't agree with him in all things, it sure is thought provoking. One thing he concludes is that trying to please everyone in music is doomed to failure. That all you get is everyone is disatisfied, that a congregation needs to make the decision of what kind of music they are going to have and stick with it. Since you are clearly interested in outreach I would recommend reading "Purpose driven Church" not so much as a just a how to manual but to really get you thinking. The idea being to make the effort efficient.
If an iron axhead is blunt and a workman does not sharpen its edge, he must exert a great deal of effort; so wisdom has the advantage of giving success. (Ecc 10:10)
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BigNorsk

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May your congregations become so packed you are forced to add more services.

You must be true to yourselves, doesn't work to imitate someone else.

Biggest thing is to be able to do some honest self-examination.

Often it is easy to assume our congregations come across as friendly because they are friendly to us. Hard to get honest evaluations by visitors. I've thought about getting some "phantom shoppers" by trading visits with other congregations.

Sometimes it is just a couple of people who really rub people wrong and make sure to meet every visitor they can.

I think there is a disconnect between perception and reality. The WELS people I have met have been most friendly and nice.

Ever done a focus group within the congregation to brainstorm outreach?
 
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Jim47

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Filia Mariae

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From a non-Lutheran perspective, I have never even seen a WELS or LCMS church in real life (and I come from a major metropolitan area). The only Lutheran churches near my home were ELCA. I'm now living in a small town that has only one (ELCA) Lutheran church. If it weren't for CF, I would probably be unaware that there are several Lutheran synods. FWIW...

Incidentally, the only time I saw an LCMS church in real life was when I was driving through a small rural town and there was an ELCA and an LCMS directly across the street from each other. How I'd love to see how that plays out in that town...
 
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Jim47

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ctay said:
Our church(LCMS) is small too. It could have anywhere from 65 to 85 people a week.. They want to do things to try and make the church grow...


Hi CTAY

What has your church found most effective in evangelism?
 
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