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even a fable has a message.You know what ...we could find something deep and meaningful in Alladin and His Magic Lamp and ANY NUMBER of similar myths, legends, and fables if we so chose to. Don't you think debating what is quite obviously a fable is REALLY worth the effort?
To tulc,
so you say
To KCKID,
even a fable has a message.
To KCKID,
Dont let homosexual practice make your day now
No problem with that, I have no intention to fool around with God so I dont quite know why you need to worry about that. The sex part of the Sodom story specifically in Genesis 19 is that men wanted sex with men which is wicked. Thus sodomy became a word for homosexual practice.The message is that you don't fool around with God ...or else! The 'sex' part of the S&G saga is just a Christian beat-up.
To KCKID,
No problem with that, I have no intention to fool around with God so I dont quite know why you need to worry about that. The sex part of the Sodom story specifically in Genesis 19 is that men wanted sex with men which is wicked. Thus sodomy became a word for homosexual practice. [/color] (emph. added)
uhmm you know you didn't actually establish the bolded part, right? You've argued that but havn't proven it.
tulc(just thought it should be pointed out)
5 Now I want to remind you, though you know all these things: the Lord, having first of all saved a people out of Egypt, later destroyed those who did not believe; 6 and He has kept, with eternal chains in darkness for the judgment of the great day, angels who did not keep their own position but deserted their proper dwelling.
7 In the same way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them committed sexual immorality and practiced perversions, just as they did, and serve as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
8 Nevertheless, these dreamers likewise defile their flesh, despise authority, and blaspheme glorious beings. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, when he was disputing with the Devil in a debate about Moses ' body, did not dare bring an abusive condemnation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
10 But these people blaspheme anything they don't understand, and what they know by instinct, like unreasoning animalsthey destroy themselves with these things. 11 Woe to them! For they have traveled in the way of Cain, have abandoned themselves to the error of Balaam for profit, and have perished in Korah's rebellion.
12 These are the ones who are like dangerous reefs at your love feasts. They feast with you, nurturing only themselves without fear. They are waterless clouds carried along by winds; trees in late autumnfruitless, twice dead, pulled out by the roots; 13 wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shameful deeds; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever!
14 Among the prophets of Jerusalem also
I saw a horrible thing:
They commit adultery and walk in lies.
They strengthen the hands of evildoers,
and none turns his back on evil.
They are all like Sodom to Me;
Jerusalem's residents are like Gomorrah.
In fact the NIV says
Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodomboth young and oldsurrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.
So I have established the Bible says the men of Sodom wanted to have sex with the men and Lot said it was wicked.
It seems tulc cant accept the Bible says what is says .
? The question was what is says. Its says the men wanted to have sex with the men and it says Lots said it was wicked. It doesnt go any deeper than that so as to make it mean the opposite of what it says. It means that men wanting sex with men is wicked and lead to the practice being called sodomy. The deeper we go the more we know what it means is what is saysWell, it actually goes somewhat deeper then that.
See the bolded part? Where Lot says "don't do this because they have come under the protection of my roof"? Why would they need protection unless he thought they were in danger?Gene. 19: 1-10 said:1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 "My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning."
"No," they answered, "we will spend the night in the square." 3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."
9 "Get out of our way," they replied. And they said, "This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We'll treat you worse than them." They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.
10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. 11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.(emph. added)
Well, it actually goes somewhat deeper then that.
tulc(has some problems with you thinking God destroyed everyone in two cities for making a pass at a couple of strangers)
16 And the men rose up from thence, and looked out toward Sodom; and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.
17 And HaShem said: 'Shall I hide from Abraham that which I am doing;
18 seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19 For I have known him, to the end that he may command his children and his household after him, that they may keep the way of HaShem, to do righteousness and justice; to the end that HaShem may bring upon Abraham that which He hath spoken of him.'
20 And HaShem said: 'Verily, the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and, verily, their sin is exceeding grievous.
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto Me; and if not, I will know.'
22 And the men turned from thence, and went toward Sodom; but Abraham stood yet before HaShem.
23 And Abraham drew near, and said: 'Wilt Thou indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked?
24 Peradventure there are fifty righteous within the city; wilt Thou indeed sweep away and not forgive the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25 That be far from Thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked, that so the righteous should be as the wicked; that be far from Thee; shall not the judge of all the earth do justly?'
26 And HaShem said: 'If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will forgive all the place for their sake.'
27 And Abraham answered and said: 'Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the L-rd, who am but dust and ashes.
28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous; wilt Thou destroy all the city for lack of five?' And He said: 'I will not destroy it, if I find there forty and five.'
29 And he spoke unto Him yet again, and said: 'Peradventure there shall be forty found there.' And He said: 'I will not do it for the forty's sake.'
30 And he said: 'Oh, let not the L-rd be angry, and I will speak. Peradventure there shall thirty be found there.' And He said: 'I will not do it, if I find thirty there.'
31 And he said: 'Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the L-rd. Peradventure there shall be twenty found there.' And He said: 'I will not destroy it for the twenty's sake.'
32 And he said: 'Oh, let not the L-rd be angry, and I will speak yet but this once. Peradventure ten shall be found there.' And He said: 'I will not destroy it for the ten's sake.'
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
24Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
25For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
29being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
31without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
They were in danger of being subjected to homosexual practice, as you can see from the text that is wicked.See the bolded part? Where Lot says "don't do this because they have come under the protection of my roof"? Why would they need protection unless he thought they were in danger?
Much deeper tulc. Things are "progessing" right back to those deeper things as we see what is being embraced in today's "culture."
From The Tanakh:
From Paul to the Christians in Rome:
How many "righteous" people will be left in the western world once progressive and liberal ideology and theology has taken control of the majority populace?
Doing the math, and the countdown is well underway to an answer coming the same way as was given to Abraham.
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