So can the Genesis be infallible and inerrant history?

TLK Valentine · Oct 27, 2013

frogman2x said:
Not worth quibbling over.

Very much worth quibbling over, since you can't seem to do it.

Of course God knew they would fall but if they did not free will, the God is author of sin and that is not possible for a holy God.

God is only "holy" because you say He is -- and who are you to tell God what He can or cannot do?

That is nonsense and you cannpt prove such a statement. Man still has free wil when it comes to chooseing to do goooooood or evil---Choose this day whom you will serve(Josh 24"15)

God also had free will -- and knowing that he was setting events in motion that would result in the ruination of His creation and the eternal suffering of billions of His children, chose to do nothing and let it go.

46AND2 · Oct 27, 2013

frogman2x said:
46AND2 said:

frogman2x said:

All angels were created to give God's children a guardian angel(Heb 1:14). Satan was originally created to be Adam and Eve's guardian angel(Ezk 28:11-16). What would be the purpose if God created robots.

Yes, because tricking someone and deceiving them mean totally different things. *rolls eyes* lol.

Not worth quibbling over.

Of course God knew they would fall but if they did not free will, the God is author of sin and that is not possible for a holy God.

Your logic or illogic is faulty. Why would God tell them not to eat if they could not choose to eat or not eat?

That is nonsense and you cannpt prove such a statement. Man still has free wil when it comes to chooseing to do goooooood or evil---Choose this day whom you will serve(Josh 24"15)

How about book, chapter and verse.

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You're missing the point. My logic is not faulty, or if it is, your query does not demonstrate this. Did they really have a choice to eat or not eat? God knew they would eat. God chose to create a universe in which they WOULD eat. If God knew that they would eat, did they really have the choice to not eat? Could they have refrained from eating and surprised God? Is there any possibility that God could have said, "huh? that wasn't supposed to happen...that's not how I planned the universe."?

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Jonathan95 · Oct 27, 2013

A creation story similar to the Genesis account was also written down by the ancient Chinese. The Genesis account is also depicted in their alphabet (if they still use the same).

EternalDragon · Oct 27, 2013

46AND2 said:
frogman2x said:

46AND2 said:

frogman2x said:

All angels were created to give God's children a guardian angel(Heb 1:14). Satan was originally created to be Adam and Eve's guardian angel(Ezk 28:11-16). What would be the purpose if God created robots.

You're missing the point. My logic is not faulty, or if it is, your query does not demonstrate this. Did they really have a choice to eat or not eat? God knew they would eat. God chose to create a universe in which they WOULD eat. If God knew that they would eat, did they really have the choice to not eat? Could they have refrained from eating and surprised God? Is there any possibility that God could have said, "huh? that wasn't supposed to happen...that's not how I planned the universe."?

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Yes, they had a choice. At the same time I am sure God knew that no matter how many Adam and Eves he made, they would each likewise be tempted. If not to eat the fruit then to sin in some other way. Like Cain killing his brother.

God is wiser than any of us. Read the rest of the bible to the end and you will be able to see all the good and not just focus on the bad.

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46AND2 · Oct 27, 2013

EternalDragon said:
46AND2 said:

frogman2x said:

46AND2 said:

Yes, they had a choice. At the same time I am sure God knew that no matter how many Adam and Eves he made, they would each likewise be tempted. If not to eat the fruit then to sin in some other way. Like Cain killing his brother.

God is wiser than any of us. Read the rest of the bible to the end and you will be able to see all the good and not just focus on the bad.

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You haven't answered the questions. Could they have made a choice which surprised God?

God could have made a universe with no temptation.
He could have made an Adam and Eve capable of resisting temptation.
He could have made a universe with no Satan, or even any angels at all.

But he didn't. He chose (allegedly) the present one, with evil and sin and demons and damnation

We only do what he created us to do. We only think the way he created us to think. We only believe what he gave us the conviction to believe.

With no choice in the matter, since we can't make any choices that he didn't already know we would make.

The illogical premise of free will from an omniscient creator has troubled me since I was a teenager (I was a YEC till I was 21 or so).

And I have read the Bible many times over, and even still do when it pertains to subject matters I am researching.

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46AND2 · Oct 27, 2013

EternalDragon said:
46AND2 said:

frogman2x said:

46AND2 said:

Read the rest of the bible to the end and you will be able to see all the good and not just focus on the bad.

Click to expand...

Well, at least you admit there is a bad side...

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EternalDragon · Oct 27, 2013

46AND2 said:
EternalDragon said:

46AND2 said:

frogman2x said:

You haven't answered the questions. Could they have made a choice which surprised God?

God could have made a universe with no temptation.
He could have made an Adam and Eve capable of resisting temptation.
He could have made a universe with no Satan, or even any angels at all.

But he didn't. He chose (allegedly) the present one, with evil and sin and demons and damnation

We only do what he created us to do. We only think the way he created us to think. We only believe what he gave us the conviction to believe.

With no choice in the matter, since we can't make any choices that he didn't already know we would make.

The illogical premise of free will from an omniscient creator has troubled me since I was a teenager (I was a YEC till I was 21 or so).

And I have read the Bible many times over, and even still do when it pertains to subject matters I am researching.

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It's probably troubling you because your understanding of it is far different than what it really means. Knowledge of something does not mean you meddle in it. If I knew you were going to choose to eat corn flakes tomorrow, all I know is what choice you will make. Me knowing that has no bearing on you making that free choice.

With free will comes good and evil. So God making a world where we could not be tempted would not contain free will and be more like you tried to explain above.

God did make Adam and Eve fully capable of resisting temptation. Otherwise why would he give them a rule not to eat?

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46AND2 · Oct 28, 2013

EternalDragon said:
46AND2 said:

EternalDragon said:

46AND2 said:

It's probably troubling you because your understanding of it is far different than what it really means. Knowledge of something does not mean you meddle in it. If I knew you were going to choose to eat corn flakes tomorrow, all I know is what choice you will make. Me knowing that has no bearing on you making that free choice.

With free will comes good and evil. So God making a world where we could not be tempted would not contain free will and be more like you tried to explain above.

God did make Adam and Eve fully capable of resisting temptation. Otherwise why would he give them a rule not to eat?

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It isn't JUST that God knows what you are going to choose to eat for breakfast tomorrow. He isn't JUST an observer. If he was, then what you say is true. But the illogic of it comes when you consider that he created the universe exactly as he did, already knowing what choices the people make in it. No matter what universe he creates, he is making every decision, for every person, when he chooses exactly which universe to create. We cannot make a choice contrary to what he created this universe to do. Ergo, no free will.

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AV1611VET · Oct 28, 2013

46AND2 said:
Ergo, no free will.

For the record, no free will is called metaphysical determinism.

Free will is known as metaphysical libertarianism.

mzungu · Oct 28, 2013

AV1611VET said:
For the record, no free will is called metaphysical determinism.

Free will is known as metaphysical libertarianism.

Since God is omniscient then suffice it to say that his creation's fate has been preordained.
In this case it is clearly a matter of; either believe or perish! Clearly there is no room for free will here. Either join the Mafia or be shot!

AV1611VET · Oct 28, 2013

AV1611VET said:
For the record, no free will is called metaphysical determinism.

Free will is known as metaphysical libertarianism.

mzungu said:

Since God is omniscient then suffice it to say that his creation's fate has been preordained.
In this case it is clearly a matter of; either believe or perish! Clearly there is no room for free will here.

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I take it then, you are an adherent of the former camp?

AV1611VET said:
Either join the Mafia or be shot!

In my earlier days, a popular saying was: I'd rather be dead than Red.

Today's scientists say: No Cross, no loss.

mzungu · Oct 28, 2013

AV1611VET said:
Today's scientists say: No Cross, no loss.

Not all scientists are atheists. The problem with creationists is that no matter how many times it is explained to them that science does not delve into the spiritual world; they [creationists] keep insisting that science does. AV you do realise that when science is expected to include the unfalsifiable it is akin to one asking Christianity to include Islam in its teachings.

Why is it so hard for you to understand this? Science never said nor will say God does not exist simply because it does not deal with such matters. It only deals with the physical world. What you or anybody believes in is not what science "cares" about.

Subduction Zone · Oct 28, 2013

mzungu said:
Not all scientists are atheists. The problem with creationists is that no matter how many times it is explained to them that science does not delve into the spiritual world; they [creationists] keep insisting that science does. AV you do realise that when science is expected to include the unfalsifiable it is akin to one asking Christianity to include Islam in its teachings.

Why is it so hard for you to understand this? Science never said nor will say God does not exist simply because it does not deal with such matters. It only deals with the physical world. What you or anybody believes in is not what science "cares" about.

Unbiased logic goes against his beliefs. He would rather have his beliefs than be logical. You can make any sort of inane claims if you go by the motto "Logic can take a hike".

Fundamentalist Christians want it both ways. They want an omniscient God and a guilty Adam and Eve. Logic says that you cannot have both. So they drop logic.

AV1611VET · Oct 28, 2013

Subduction Zone said:
So they drop logic.

Ya ... for a higher form of logic; called "theological."

You know?

Where the laws of non-contradiction, thermodynamics, and gravity can be broken?

A form of logic where 1+1+1=1; bodies of water split apart; and animals have communicated with humans.

It's a place where scientists are invited to come, but don't care to go; since it's holy ground, and they're not trained to traipse there.

AV1611VET · Oct 28, 2013

mzungu said:
Not all scientists are atheists.

Oh, that's right.

Those who aren't are called "liars" ... aren't they?

mzungu · Oct 28, 2013

AV1611VET said:
Ya ... for a higher form of logic; called "theological."

You know?

Where the laws of non-contradiction, thermodynamics, and gravity can be broken?

A form of logic where 1+1+1=1; bodies of water split apart; and animals have communicated with humans.

That my good man is called "Make believe land". Most people grow out of it when they reach adulthood

AV1611VET · Oct 28, 2013

mzungu said:
Most people grow out of it when they reach adulthood

Ya -- and we call those people: mission fields.

mzungu · Oct 28, 2013

AV1611VET said:
Oh, that's right.

Those who aren't are called "liars" ... aren't they?

NOPE! The vast majority of Christians worldwide are not creationists!

bhsmte · Oct 28, 2013

AV1611VET said:
Ya ... for a higher form of logic; called "theological."

You know?

Where the laws of non-contradiction, thermodynamics, and gravity can be broken?

A form of logic where 1+1+1=1; bodies of water split apart; and animals have communicated with humans.

It's a place where scientists are invited to come, but don't care to go; since it's holy ground, and they're not trained to traipse there.

yep, theology allows you to make up whatever you like to explain something, so you don't have to think too hard.

AV1611VET · Oct 28, 2013

bhsmte said:
yep, theology allows you to make up whatever you like to explain something, so you don't have to think too hard.

If you think it's so easy, QV here, where Rocky & I go head-to-head in a role reversal thread.

I play the part of an evolutionist, and Rocky plays the part of a creationist.

So can the Genesis be infallible and inerrant history?

I've already read the books you want burned.

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