So can the Genesis be infallible and inerrant history?

Vaccine · Oct 25, 2013

If Genesis wasn't history, and Adam didn't learn language from Jesus (Jehova God), what is the alternative origin of language? The ancient languages are more complex than modern ones. Language, not to be confused with communication, is not just an inevitable result of brain size either. Even Dawkin admits problems finding the forerunner of syntax and grammar.
Here are some examples of feral children, which typically have insurmountable problems learning language.

10 Modern Cases of Feral Children - Listverse

Feral child - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

mzungu · Oct 25, 2013

EternalDragon said:
Actually you only have the sin nature. You are actually judged for your own individual sins.

God created man with free will. He had the potential to fall, yes. As any being does with free will. One third of the angels followed Lucifer. The others did not.

Just as you have the choice right now, today, to follow God/Jesus or not. To repent of your sins and be forgiven....or not. It's your free choice.

According to the Bible; God created Adam and Eve without sin. He also created the Devil (Lucifer) as an archangel. Let's analyse this for a moment: You have two innocent beings who know not of evil and you introduce an evil being knowing full well as an omniscient being that this evil being will trick the two innocent beings into disregarding your command to not eat a fruit. Now how can the two innocent beings be damned for eternity as sinners? This is akin to a judge condemning two children who accepted to deliver a package containing narcotics to someone by a dealer. Who do you blame the children or the dealer?

God knew when he created Satan what Satan will do yet went ahead anyway and ended up blaming two innocent people! This is not the kind of religion that inspires compassion. Far from it!

lasthero · Oct 25, 2013

If Genesis wasn't history, and Adam didn't learn language from Jesus (Jehova God), what is the alternative origin of language?

What about all the other origins of language posited by other religions? Why is the only alternative to a natural origin not just a supernatural one, but your particular supernatural one?

The ancient languages are more complex than modern ones.

I'd like to see your source on this.

Language, not to be confused with communication, is not just an inevitable result of brain size either. Even Dawkin admits problems finding the forerunner of syntax and grammar.

I'll concede that there are many things about language that we don't know, and probably can't know, for obvious reasons. What's your point?

lasthero · Oct 25, 2013

If Genesis wasn't history, and Adam didn't learn language from Jesus (Jehova God), what is the alternative origin of language?

What about all the other origins of language posited by other religions? Why is the only alternative to a natural origin not just a supernatural one, but your particular supernatural one?

The ancient languages are more complex than modern ones.

I'd like to see your source on this.

Language, not to be confused with communication, is not just an inevitable result of brain size either. Even Dawkin admits problems finding the forerunner of syntax and grammar.

I'll concede that there are many things about language that we don't know, and probably can't know, for obvious reasons. What's your point?

EternalDragon · Oct 25, 2013

mzungu said:
According to the Bible; God created Adam and Eve without sin. He also created the Devil (Lucifer) as an archangel. Let's analyse this for a moment: You have two innocent beings who know not of evil and you introduce an evil being knowing full well as an omniscient being that this evil being will trick the two innocent beings into disregarding your command to not eat a fruit. Now how can the two innocent beings be damned for eternity as sinners? This is akin to a judge condemning two children who accepted to deliver a package containing narcotics to someone by a dealer. Who do you blame the children or the dealer?

God knew when he created Satan what Satan will do yet went ahead anyway and ended up blaming two innocent people! This is not the kind of religion that inspires compassion. Far from it!

That is because you completely misunderstand the story. Or you deliberately misunderstand it. I am not sure which.

rjw · Oct 25, 2013

Old Flat Top said:
I thought so, fancy meeting you here.

john

I do wander a bit.

There is another forum, Theology Web, somewhat like this particular forum. I post there as well. Unfortunately it's offline at the moment.

rjw · Oct 25, 2013

Vaccine said:
If Genesis wasn't history, and Adam didn't learn language from Jesus (Jehova God), what is the alternative origin of language? The ancient languages are more complex than modern ones. Language, not to be confused with communication, is not just an inevitable result of brain size either. Even Dawkin admits problems finding the forerunner of syntax and grammar.
Here are some examples of feral children, which typically have insurmountable problems learning language.

10 Modern Cases of Feral Children - Listverse

Feral child - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Are you wanting me to assert the origin of language, or explain it?

I doubt if you can explain it, however, like you, I can assert its origin.

Old Flat Top · Oct 25, 2013

rjw said:
I do wander a bit.

There is another forum, Theology Web, somewhat like this particular forum. I post there as well. Unfortunately it's offline at the moment.

This one looks promising, but I find it hard to find my last posts. Something I am missing?

john

frogman2x · Oct 25, 2013

bhsmte said:
Because it makes promises (and also a lot of threats) it makes it accurate? If that is your compass, while ignoring everything else, then have at it.

Laws make threats for breaking them. Laws are necessary to try and control bad behavior. What makes you think I have ignored everything else?

mzungu · Oct 25, 2013

EternalDragon said:
That is because you completely misunderstand the story. Or you deliberately misunderstand it. I am not sure which.

OK! Please explain the following:

1 Why did God create Satan?
2 Why did God allow Satan to trick Eve?
3 Why did God not allow Adam and Eve to know what evil is?
4 How can one have free will and yet not know what evil is?
5 Why did God create Satan as his right hand man (archangel)when he knew as an omniscient being what would happen?
6 Why punish Adam and Eve when they knew not what they did since they were innocent and knew not of evil?

Do you really think I cannot read the Bible?

frogman2x · Oct 25, 2013

mzungu said:
OK! Please explain the following:

1 Why did God create Satan?

All angels were created to give God's children a guardian angel(Heb 1:14). Satan was originally creatged to be Adam and Eve's guardian aangel(Ezk 28:11-16). What would be tghe purpose if God created robots.

2 Why did God allow Satan to trick Eve?

Satan did not trick Eve, He deceived her her.(I Tim 2:14)

3 Why did God not allow Adam and Eve to know what evil is?

God must teach man what is good and evil. He would have eventually

4 How can one have free will and yet not know what evil is

Click to expand...

Free will is not about knowing, it is about the ability to choose or reject something.

5 Why did God create Satan as his right hand man (archangel)when he knew as an omniscient being what would happen?

Click to expand...

Satan was not "God's right-hand man. He was a cherub, which a class of angels, which are lower than arch-angels and may be lowere than the serephim. God's right-hand man is Christ.

6 Why punish Adam and Eve when they knew not what they did since they were innocent and knew not of evil?

Click to expand...

For the same reason He punished anyone---they disobeyed Him. The had the knowledge of wht "do not eat" meant.

Do you really think I cannot read the Bible?

Click to expand...

Reading is not the problem, understanding what we read is the problem. I can read the repair manuel for how to fix a transmission, but I will not understand most of it.

Click to expand...

mzungu · Oct 25, 2013

frogman2x said:
All angels were created to give God's children a guardian angel(Heb 1:14). Satan was originally creatged to be Adam and Eve's guardian aangel(Ezk 28:11-16). What would be tghe purpose if God created robots.

Irrelevant to my question.

Satan did not trick Eve, He deceived her her.(I Tim 2:14)

Semantics. OK supplant the word trick with deceive.

God must teach man what is good and evil. He would have eventually

Oh really? Why did he not teach Adam and Eve? He knew beforehand what the Devil will do.

Free will is not about knowing, it is about the ability to choose or reject something.

Free will is useless unless one knows what is right and what is wrong. How else can one make the right choice?

Satan was not "God's right-hand man. He was a cherub, which a class of angels, which are lower than arch-angels and may be lowere than the serephim. God's right-hand man is Christ.

Wrong. Lucifer was an archangel.
Excerpt from : http://www.sharefaith.com/guide/christian-ministries/angels/lucifer-the-fallen-angel.html

Lucifer is one of three archangels mentioned in Scripture. He was created by God just as all angels were, but his role was different from the other angelic hosts. Lucifer was referred to as the 'covering angel.' Just as the cherubim covered the mercy seat of the Ark of the Covenant, Lucifer was established by God to be the angel of worship, one whose ministry surrounded the heart of heaven. Lucifer was created to dwell eternally in the throne room of heaven, in the very presence of God (Ezekiel 28:14).

For the same reason He punished anyone---they disobeyed Him. The had the knowledge of wht "do not eat" meant.

Unless one knows right from wrong then one cannot know that to disobey is wrong. So much for free will.

Reading is not the problem, understanding what we read is the problem. I can read the repair manuel for how to fix a transmission, but I will not understand most of it.

And what makes you an expert on understanding what you read from the Bible over my reading of the Bible?

46AND2 · Oct 25, 2013

frogman2x said:
All angels were created to give God's children a guardian angel(Heb 1:14). Satan was originally creatged to be Adam and Eve's guardian aangel(Ezk 28:11-16). What would be tghe purpose if God created robots.

Satan did not trick Eve, He deceived her her.(I Tim 2:14)

3 Why did God not allow Adam and Eve to know what evil is?

God must teach man what is good and evil. He would have eventually

Free will is not about knowing, it is about the ability to choose or reject something.

Satan was not "God's right-hand man. He was a cherub, which a class of angels, which are lower than arch-angels and may be lowere than the serephim. God's right-hand man is Christ.

For the same reason He punished anyone---they disobeyed Him. The had the knowledge of wht "do not eat" meant.

Reading is not the problem, understanding what we read is the problem. I can read the repair manuel for how to fix a transmission, but I will not understand most of it.

Click to expand...

Yes, because tricking someone and deceiving them mean totally different things. *rolls eyes* lol.

Look, Adam and Eve had no free will. They behaved exactly as god created them to behave. God apparently knew ahead of time that they would fall. But he created them that way anyway. He could have created a version of them who would do the right thing. But they wouldn't have free will, either.

Let me ask you this, could they have made a choice which surprised god?of course not, right?so there was only one option available to them. Ergo, no free will.

God, in the bible, purposely introduced evil into the world, so he could punish people for choices they had no capability of not choosing.

All this is true about Lucifer's creation as well.

Click to expand...

Doveaman · Oct 25, 2013

CabVet said:
If the physical evidence can "take a hike", by definition you cannot accept both.

The physical evidence takes a hike in the light of the miraculous event since the physical evidence often tells a different story from what actually happened.

"The fire had not harmed their bodies, nor was a hair of their heads singed; their robes were not scorched, and there was no smell of fire on them." - (Dan 3:27).

If there is no miraculous event the physical evidence can be relied on to determine whether or not three men could survive an incinerator without being harmed. .

That would be gravity and biology. Perhaps what you mean is that those miracles are some sort of "exception" to the natural rules and don't invalidate them? Am I on the right track?

Sort of.

What is invalidated is the physical evidence surrounding the miraculous event since the evidence often (if not always) paints a different picture from what actually happened. In such cases the evidence would be misleading.

Nobody is saying they could. No amount of scientific experimens can reproduce 4 billion years of evolution either.

That’s true. It does indeed feel like 4 billion years since you guys have been trying to reproduce the evolution of living organisms from nonliving matter.

Doveaman · Oct 25, 2013

rjw said:
Therefore you have no need to accept the reality of gravity.

Where was gravity when Jesus walked on water or when He flew off into the clouds after His resurrection?

I’m no rejecting gravity, but if I rely on the law of gravity to determine whether or not Jesus walked on water, the law of gravity will mislead me.

As per the Bible, it really is so that rain falls because God tells it to? Gravity has nothing to do with it?

The laws that govern rainfall and gravity were established by God, therefore God did it.

That verse you quoted from the Bible - a fallible human wrote it, a human who was open to all the foibles of modern day creationists who often claim intimate relationships with, and guidance by God.

Writing a perfect book is much simpler than living a perfect lifestyle.

We can write the Ten Commandments perfectly but we cannot live the Ten Commandments perfectly.

It’s much simpler for God to inspire the writing of a perfect book than it is for Him to inspire the lifestyle of an imperfect human.

The errors in a book can be easily corrected, but the errors in the human character is not that simple to correct.

CabVet · Oct 25, 2013

Doveaman said:
Im no rejecting gravity, but if I rely on the law of gravity to determine whether or not Jesus walked on water, the law of gravity will mislead me.

And that is precisely my point. You can live with gravity (even though Jesus walked on water) or biology (even though Jesus resurrected himself and others) but you cannot live with evolution. This is beyond me.

rjw · Oct 25, 2013

Doveaman said:
Where was gravity when Jesus walked on water or when He flew off into the clouds after His resurrection?

Jesus no more walked on water than the emperor Augustus was conceived via the union of a god with a human female.

Dm said:
Im no rejecting gravity, but if I rely on the law of gravity to determine whether or not Jesus walked on water, the law of gravity will mislead me.

But you don't need to accept the law of gravity.

Dm said:
The laws that govern rainfall and gravity were established by God, therefore God did it.

So you accept the Bible's claim that gravity has nothing to do with rainfall?

Dm said:
Writing a perfect book is much simpler than living a perfect lifestyle.

You know this how?

Dm said:
We can write the Ten Commandments perfectly but we cannot live the Ten Commandments perfectly.

How did you work out that they were written perfectly?

And if you have an intimate relationship with and guidance by an omnipotent, omnipresent God, why can't you live the perfect life? And if you cannot do this, then clearly there is no need to accept that the words in the Bible are infallible and inerrant. Humans wrote them.

Dm said:
Its much simpler for God to inspire the writing of a perfect book than it is for Him to inspire the lifestyle of an imperfect human.

Again, how do you know this? Does God have limitations?

Dm said:
The errors in a book can be easily corrected, but the errors in the human character is not that simple to correct.

So you are implicitly claiming that the Bible is not necessarily infallible and inerrant?

EternalDragon · Oct 25, 2013

mzungu said:
OK! Please explain the following:

1 Why did God create Satan?
2 Why did God allow Satan to trick Eve?
3 Why did God not allow Adam and Eve to know what evil is?
4 How can one have free will and yet not know what evil is?
5 Why did God create Satan as his right hand man (archangel)when he knew as an omniscient being what would happen?
6 Why punish Adam and Eve when they knew not what they did since they were innocent and knew not of evil?

Do you really think I cannot read the Bible?

Any being with free will is going to eventually sin at some point. Thus bringing in death and sin to the universe. God in His wisdom devised a plan to conquer death and sin with His son, Jesus.

Adam and Eve knew what right and wrong was or God would not have given them rules. They were not innocent children. They were fully grown and intelligent adults. They knew they were disobeying God. They knew what evil was and what death was. There is a difference between knowing evil and death and actually experiencing it.

Eve was tempted and she failed the test.

Something that seems evil or a mistake on God's part could actually have a good purpose. We are not as wise or all knowing as God.

frogman2x · Oct 27, 2013

mzungu said:
Irrelevant to my question.

Semantics. OK supplant the word trick with deceive.

There is a difference between trick and deceive but it is not worth quibbling about.

Oh really? Why did he not teach Adam and Eve? He knew beforehand what the Devil will do.

He was going to teach them but not at that momoent. IMO Satan started his deception the day Adam and Ever were made. Maybe the next day.

Free will is useless unless one knows what is right and what is wrong. How else can one make the right choice?

At that time, Adam and EVe only had one thing they needed to know---don't eat froem the tree of the knowledge of good and evol

Wrong. Lucifer was an archangel.
Excerpt from : Satan - Lucifer the Fallen Angel

Lucifer is one of three archangels mentioned in Scripture. He was created by God just as all angels were, but his role was different from the other angelic hosts. Lucifer was referred to as the 'covering angel.' Just as the cherubim covered the mercy seat of the Ark of the Covenant, Lucifer was established by God to be the angel of worship, one whose ministry surrounded the heart of heaven. Lucifer was created to dwell eternally in the throne room of heaven, in the very presence of God (Ezekiel 28:14).

You need to reread the verse you just quoted. That verse says he was a cherub. He was not an archangel. The Bible only list 1 archangel---Michael. "Covering" in Ezk 18:14 literally means to guard. Nothing you have said about Satan is Bib lical

Unless one knows right from wrong then one cannot know that to disobey is wrong. So much for free will.

The had nlyl 1 thing they needed to know---Do not eat from the tree of the knowlede of good and evil.

And what makes you an expert on understanding what you read from the Bible over my reading of the Bible?

Have I said I am more expert? I have pointed out some errors in your understanding. The verse you quoted definately says Satan is a cherub. The Bible only list 1 archangel and it is not Satan.

frogman2x · Oct 27, 2013

46AND2 said:
frogman2x said:

All angels were created to give God's children a guardian angel(Heb 1:14). Satan was originally created to be Adam and Eve's guardian angel(Ezk 28:11-16). What would be the purpose if God created robots.

Yes, because tricking someone and deceiving them mean totally different things. *rolls eyes* lol.

Not worth quibbling over.

Look, Adam and Eve had no free will. They behaved exactly as god created them to behave. God apparently knew ahead of time that they would fall. But he created them that way anyway. He could have created a version of them who would do the right thing. But they wouldn't have free will, either.

Click to expand...

Of course God knew they would fall but if they did not free will, the God is author of sin and that is not possible for a holy God.

Let me ask you this, could they have made a choice which surprised god?of course not, right?so there was only one option available to them. Ergo, no free will.

Click to expand...

Your logic or illogic is faulty. Why would God tell them not to eat if they could not choose to eat or not eat?

God, in the bible, purposely introduced evil into the world, so he could punish people for choices they had no capability of not choosing. If a God causes man to sin, He is not a holy God. In fact God doee not even tempt men to sin(Jas 1:13)

Click to expand...

That is nonsense and you cannpt prove such a statement. Man still has free wil when it comes to chooseing to do goooooood or evil---Choose this day whom you will serve(Josh 24"15)

All this is true about Lucifer's creation as well.

Click to expand...

How about book, chapter and verse.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

So can the Genesis be infallible and inerrant history?

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