Sinful to have a baby?

simchat_torah · Apr 22, 2010

Unclean does not mean sinful. Otherwise a woman would be in sin once a month during Niddah. This idea of Unclean meaning sinful is just ridiculous.

*sigh*

Ivy · Apr 22, 2010

simchat_torah said:
Unclean does not mean sinful. Otherwise a woman would be in sin once a month during Niddah. This idea of Unclean meaning sinful is just ridiculous.

*sigh*

What is "unclean" intended to mean, I wonder?

To me, in this context, it means "something is not quite the way it was intended to be, the way God originally made it", so let's do something to show God we care that it's not what it was before.

Lulav · Apr 22, 2010

simchat_torah said:
Unclean does not mean sinful. Otherwise a woman would be in sin once a month during Niddah. This idea of Unclean meaning sinful is just ridiculous.

*sigh*

I don't think anyone said that being unclean was sinful. I was concentrating on the part in the parsha that states a sin offering is required after childbirth.

The parsha commentary Chavah posted was very helpful, too bad your commentary isn't.

Lulav · Apr 22, 2010

Ivy said:
I also tend to think that Adam, being right there, could have intervened at any time--after all, God had given him dominion over every creature in the garden, and "every" creature would certainly include the serpent.

Now that is interesting, I love Genesis and have studied it extensively (My favorite book), and love every year when we get back around to it but it's never long enough though, especially for the first few chapters to be in one week! Anyway that never dawned on me! yes he was given the dominion over them, why didn't he tell him to shut it? Hmm that's one to seriously contemplate, thanks Ivy!

Just a quick thought and I'm tired here so it might not make much sense but may be a factor to consider.

At that time in the whole wide world there was Adam, Chavah, The L-RD and the animals. The L-rd spoke to Adam, how often we don't know, but was he the only one? I don't think that any of the other animals could speak (only one other is the donkey of Balaam's) so maybe he was so fascinated that one of these animals he had been given charge over could speak. And not only speak but seemed to know the mind of G-d, maybe Adam thought this creature was given more info than he , Adam had been. ..................Just some sleepy thoughts.

Ivy · Apr 22, 2010

Lulav said:
Now that is interesting, I love Genesis and have studied it extensively (My favorite book), and love every year when we get back around to it but it's never long enough though, especially for the first few chapters to be in one week! Anyway that never dawned on me! yes he was given the dominion over them, why didn't he tell him to shut it? Hmm that's one to seriously contemplate, thanks Ivy!

Just a quick thought and I'm tired here so it might not make much sense but may be a factor to consider.

At that time in the whole wide world there was Adam, Chavah, The L-RD and the animals. The L-rd spoke to Adam, how often we don't know, but was he the only one? I don't think that any of the other animals could speak (only one other is the donkey of Balaam's) so maybe he was so fascinated that one of these animals he had been given charge over could speak. And not only speak but seemed to know the mind of G-d, maybe Adam thought this creature was given more info than he , Adam had been. ..................Just some sleepy thoughts.

I can picture Adam now going, "Yo Snake-o! Put a sock in it or I gonna BUSTA YOU HEAD!"

That's an interesting thought, the novelty and fascination of a talking creature.....satan always knows what's a draw, doesn't he? And of course the Scriptures say the serpent was beautiful and didn't always crawl on it's belly; it's interesting to think that maybe a serpent may not have been something at all creepy or snakelike once upon a time.

Lulav · Apr 23, 2010

Yeah, maybe Adam was like Swartzenegger on Twins, remember when he got off that island and starting seeing things in the industrialized world? Very fascinated, maybe that's what happened.

And although most men may not be attracted to shiny beads and such, they so like lizards. Did you see that show on the Animal Planet recently about the animals in the Bible? By Simcha Jacobovici? He was proposing that the snake with legs may have been like a salamander. And salamanders excrete a liquid through their skin and makes them look all shiny. Some can even go through fire with this protection.

Ivy · Apr 23, 2010

That sounds interesting; I will check it out on YouTube.

simchat_torah · Apr 23, 2010

The parsha commentary Chavah posted was very helpful, too bad your commentary isn't.

Your logic fails. Why is the offering needed? Care to take a guess? Why do you think I mentioned clean vs. unclean? Why do you think THE PASSAGE MENTIONS it?

Daxen · Apr 27, 2010

the fall of mankind is laid squarely on Adams back, the first Adam brought sin into the world, the second Adam (Jesus Christ) delivered us from that sin
1Cor15.45

eve was deceived but adam was rebelious

men dont like that but sin came into the world through a man, which is why Jesus Christ had to be 100% man and 100% God, which is why He had to be born of a woman but He could not be born of a man or He would have had the sin-nature of a man
Thats the whole concept of the virgin birth

Daxen · Apr 27, 2010

1Cor15
21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive

visionary · Apr 27, 2010

Daxen said:
the fall of mankind is laid squarely on Adams back, the first Adam brought sin into the world, the second Adam (Jesus Christ) delivered us from that sin
1Cor15.45

eve was deceived but adam was rebelious

men dont like that but sin came into the world through a man, which is why Jesus Christ had to be 100% man and 100% God, which is why He had to be born of a woman but He could not be born of a man or He would have had the sin-nature of a man
Thats the whole concept of the virgin birth

From belly button on.. we have all retained the sinful flesh.. whether sinning by ignorance or by full knowledge, we are all held accountable..

Daxen · Apr 27, 2010

you ladies might want to mark those verses in your bible because you probably wont have another man admit the fall of mankind came through a man HA !! LOL

we tend to like to blame women for all our problems like how Adam pointed the finger at Eve when God called him out on his sin
of course women point the finger to, like Eve, but that is all part of our fallen nature

Daxen · Apr 27, 2010

of course we are all held accountable for our sins

Ivy · Apr 27, 2010

Daxen said:
you ladies might want to mark those verses in your bible because you probably wont have another man admit the fall of mankind came through a man HA !!

Laureate · Oct 19, 2023

Lulav said:
Reading todays Torah portion and I am wondering again, why is is sinful to have a child? Why must the mother take a sin offering after her days of separation?

Why is it only a total of 40 days for a male child and twice as long, 80 days for a female child?

Which makes me think of Miriam going to the temple with her turtledove. Was it sinful to bear the Messiah?

It is not sinful to be fruitful & multiply, however that Blessing does not belong to those who are unworthy, to those whom Heaven did not bless but cursed.

We are born by liars murderers and thieves, but no one takes these words of Yeshuah literally, yet that is what he declared to be the truth up and to that moment in which he declared such.

Remember there was no one called to their office because they were pure or pristinely perfect, but rather perfect for the occasion, and as the occasion shifts, so too ought such perfect beings shift, or lose their relative state of perfection.

Many of us have misplaced our affections, fastening ourselves to that which is Better as if it were Best, because Better is (momentarily) construed as Best at a given point of progression in route to what is Best.

Laureate · Oct 19, 2023

There is but one True Mother of all the Living, and She is not a Woman, any more than a Man is the Father of all Mankind, Oh they exist, but in the eyes of Heaven they are not a mere Man nor Woman, that perspective alone constitutes a Sin.

A male child has a pair of reproductive chromosomes X & Y, whereas a female child has X X, these chromosomes determine the sex of an offspring, if a female receives a Y chromosome from a male, then their offspring will be Male (her X + his Y), if a female receives an X from a male, then their offspring will be Female (her X + his X), I believe this has something to do with why 40 days for a male, and 80 for a female [if X = 40], in conjunction with the Two being one, yet conduct themselves as if they were two (where soever they lack harmonic cohesion).

We do not belong to ourselves, this truth is amplified by a woman’s body does not belong to herself, but Oh how the World staunchly disagrees, only because many Males have proven themselves to be immature, ergo the biblical narrative of a Woman with Child, a Widow and an Orphan, because there is No Man.

daq · Oct 20, 2023

Lulav said:
Reading todays Torah portion and I am wondering again, why is is sinful to have a child? Why must the mother take a sin offering after her days of separation?

Why is it only a total of 40 days for a male child and twice as long, 80 days for a female child?

Which makes me think of Miriam going to the temple with her turtledove. Was it sinful to bear the Messiah?

More recently I have begun to look at everything that concerns day counts and numbers of days for a possible connection to the calendar, by default, (simply due to an intense ongoing calendar study). In this case we have seven days uncleanness and then we have thirty days and three days to make up forty days, (for a male child).

In the flood narrative, in the LXX, it is four days if you include the 27th or three days if you do not include the 27th in the count, then thirty days for the third month, then either six or seven days depending on whether or not you included the 27th in your count. The seventh of the fourth month is the fast of the fourth, an intercalation day, blotting out sin, and thus the day is blotted out from the calendar because it is a day of blotting out rebellion, Gen 7:17-23, (and therefore, because it is not recognized as a calendar day, it is not counted in the month, which adds a day to the calendar).

Any way you count it, (even following the Hebrew text from 2/17), the 41st day which follows the count is the intercalation, the day in which all flesh and every standing thing upon the eretz died, (Gen 7:21-23). The offerings of Lev 12:6-8 are made in the 41st day, when the days of her purifications are fulfilled. These things may therefore also have prophetic significance, (for example compare with Rev 12).

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