Sin unto death

Seeking His Face · Jan 7, 2012

According to my understanding, sinning unto death means that if a believer continues in unrepentant sin long enough, God will cause his life to end prematurely, because in His holiness He cannot tolerate a believer who stubbornly continues living a life that is an utter ethical contradiction to the new, consecrated life he should be living in Christ.

John tells us in 1 John 5:16 to pray for believers who have sinned, as long as their sin is not unto death, and he advises us not to pray for those who have sinned unto death.

"If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it."

My question is, how are we to know if someone has sinned unto death, especially if that person is yet with us?

Moreover, if a believer who has sinned unto death is no longer with us, why would we even need John to tell us not to pray for someone who has already died? Was John being redundant?

What is the threshold between a sin that is not unto death, and a sin that is unto death? Are we capable of recognizing when a believer has passed over that threshold? If so, then taking into consideration that most sins a believer commits are kept hidden from other believers, then how are we to recognize that crucial point beyond which we should no longer pray for that believer who has sinned?

ByronArn · Jan 7, 2012

Seeking His Face said:
According to my understanding, sinning unto death means that if a believer continues in unrepentant sin long enough, God will cause his life to end prematurely, because in His holiness He cannot tolerate a believer who stubbornly continues living a life that is an utter ethical contradiction to the new, consecrated life he should be living in Christ.

John tells us in 1 John 5:16 to pray for believers who have sinned, as long as their sin is not unto death, and he advises us not to pray for those who have sinned unto death.

"If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it."

My question is, how are we to know if someone has sinned unto death, especially if that person is yet with us?

Moreover, if a believer who has sinned unto death is no longer with us, why would we even need John to tell us not to pray for someone who has already died? Was John being redundant?

What is the threshold between a sin that is not unto death, and a sin that is unto death? Are we capable of recognizing when a believer has passed over that threshold? If so, then taking into consideration that most sins a believer commits are kept hidden from other believers, then how are we to recognize that crucial point beyond which we should no longer pray for that believer who has sinned?

I would think that if there is such a concept, that it will be obvious when the believer who has sinned unto death is dead.

Seeking His Face · Jan 7, 2012

ByronArn said:
I would think that if there is such a concept, that it will be obvious when the believer who has sinned unto death is dead.

But that doesn't answer any of my questions.

strelok0017 · Jan 7, 2012

Simply put, all people who don't repent are sinning unto death. It only gives a distinction to us because Christians can't sin unto death. All of our sins have been forgiven therefore it refers to unbelievers. It also might signify something like this: if we see a person who professes to be a Christian but engages in sinful activities without even thinking that they are harming the relationship with the Lord, we have to ask ourselves why are they doing that. Not all professing Christians are Christians. We should pray that people don't sin unto death meaning we should pray that they repent.

Seeking His Face · Jan 7, 2012

strelok0017 said:
Simply put, all people who don't repent are sinning unto death. It only gives a distinction to us because Christians can't sin unto death. All of our sins have been forgiven therefore it refers to unbelievers. It also might signify something like this: if we see a person who professes to be a Christian but engages in sinful activities without even thinking that they are harming the relationship with the Lord, we have to ask ourselves why are they doing that. Not all professing Christians are Christians. We should pray that people don't sin unto death meaning we should pray that they repent.

So if I say I'm a Christian, and I commit one little sin, it means I'm not really a Christian?

Does everyone who trusts Christ as their savior immediately cease to sin for the rest of their lives as soon as they are saved?

strelok0017 · Jan 7, 2012

Seeking His Face said:
strelok0017 said:

Simply put, all people who don't repent are sinning unto death. It only gives a distinction to us because Christians can't sin unto death. All of our sins have been forgiven therefore it refers to unbelievers. It also might signify something like this: if we see a person who professes to be a Christian but engages in sinful activities without even thinking that they are harming the relationship with the Lord, we have to ask ourselves why are they doing that. Not all professing Christians are Christians. We should pray that people don't sin unto death meaning we should pray that they repent. [/quote

So if I say I'm a Christian, and I commit one little sin, it means I'm not really a Christian?

Does everyone who trusts Christ as their savior immediately cease to sin for the rest of their lives as soon as they are saved?

Click to expand...

No, I did not say that Christians are sinless. Christians who sin don't sin unto death because they are forgiven. It is really that simple. And they don't willingly engage into sins without having their consciousness condemn them. The most important thing is to look at Jesus. Don't get all into self analysis; it's very damaging. Yes, we sin and we should be repenting of it but just because often we forget to doesn't mean we are not Christians. You simply can't pray about every sin you commit, you can't even live that way. Just know yourself forgiven and pray for the work of the Holy Spirit in your life.

God bless you!

Hupomone10 · Jan 7, 2012

Stepping in front of a moving bus or 18 wheeler is often a sin unto death.

Sometimes teasing a tiger is also.

Mauling survivor said he yelled at tiger

Robs07M6S · Jan 7, 2012

Seeking His Face said:
So if I say I'm a Christian, and I commit one little sin, it means I'm not really a Christian?

Does everyone who trusts Christ as their savior immediately cease to sin for the rest of their lives as soon as they are saved?

Your missing the point and thats not what strelok is implying. Believers will still sin after they have been saved, the difference is that they have the indwelling Holy Spirit who convicts them and in turn the believer will repent. There is a constant struggle with sin in the believers life but with the believer he has the indwelling Holy Spirit to help him overcome the temptation to sin.

The difference is that the unbeliever makes a practice of sin and unrighteousness with no concern and no repentance, unlike the believer who realizes when he sins and then repents of that sin.

1 John 3:9-10
9 sNo one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s2 seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, tnor is the one who udoes not love his brother.

In short I do not believe the sin unto death is committed by a believer because its in contradiction with what 1 John 3:9-10 says and if you pay close attention to the passage concerning sin unto death you will see that "brother" is only in contrast with those that sin not unto death.

WinBySurrender · Jan 7, 2012

All sin is "unto death" unless it is covered by the shed blood of Jesus Christ through faith in Him by the sinner. In short, all of us (at least we assume) on this board. This is a difficult passage but, when seen in the light of other Scripture, it becomes plain.

The first example of such death we have is Annanias and Sapphira in the Jerusalem church shortly after Pentecost. These were hypocritical Christians, which is to say they were barely Christians at all. They practiced the things of believers without being convicted of the need for obedience and service, and they did so for show, to be accepted and admired, not to serve the kingdom of God. They were carried from the room in which they died and were buried by the hands of the very people they offended with their sin. Certainly this was most severe, as many believers do far worse than this today. But this "sin unto death" was necessary as testimony to the new church that sin was to be taken seriously, as it would still rear its ugly head in the life of the believer -- especially those finding it difficult to submit to Christ's authority in all things.

Paul provides the next example with the young man in 1 Cor 5 who had an affair with his stepmother. The apostle turned the young man "over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh" that he might still "be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." Now Paul said specifically that he was praying, both for the church and for the young man, that these issues would be resolved in a faithful manner. And they were, as we see in 2 Cor 2 that the young man had been restored to fellowship.

This would be in opposition to John's statement in 1 John 5:16 "I do no say he should make request for this." Not pray a brother in Christ be revived? Doesn't sound like John to me. So maybe he's not talking about a brother in Christ, but the more general use of adelphos which can mean a blood brother, spiritual brother, or its use here -- a brother in mankind, someone we care about and hope to see regenerated. Our prayers must always be offered in submission to the will of God. In some things the answers come quickly while others are granted in God's timing and method, though perhaps not as we requested. We ought to pray for others, as well as for ourselves. There are sins that war against spiritual life in the soul, and the fellowship we have with God. You've heard of strongholds? These are areas of our life we have not surrendered to God, that hold sway over our decisions in certain areas of weakness. These were the sins of Annanias, Sapphira and the young man at Corinth. For these, we ask God to forgive them and enlighten them and hold them accountable to Him by repentance and contrition.

However, we can't ask God for the forgiveness of sins of the unrepentant and unbelieving as long as they remain so, or that His mercy, which depends on their belief that He and He alone provides forgiveness, should be granted to them while they willfully continue in unbelief. It is this against which the apostle John warns in 1 John 5:16. There is no caution here against prayer for the regeneration of the unrepentant, for their being enriched with faith in Christ, and henceforth for all other saving mercies available from Christ our (and then, their) Lord. The warning is not to pray for the impossible, that forgiveness come without belief or repentance leading to regeneration.

ChrisHolland619 · Jan 7, 2012

But we are all sinners, born into sin. To think that one could simply stop sinning completely after salvation, that is simply false. You cannot become sinless. If we could do it ourselves, Christ didn't need to die for us.

strelok0017 · Jan 7, 2012

We can't do it ourselves, born sinners with a rebellious nature. The difference between a born again person and an unbeliever is that an unbeliever never repents of sin, maybe doesn't even think that there is such a thing as a sin. Christians know that only to the grace of God have we been forgiven and have a right standing with God. There's no talk about sinlessness here, just about genuine repentance.

Seeking His Face · Jan 7, 2012

strelok0017 said:
Seeking His Face said:

No, I did not say that Christians are sinless. Christians who sin don't sin unto death because they are forgiven. It is really that simple. And they don't willingly engage into sins without having their consciousness condemn them. The most important thing is to look at Jesus. Don't get all into self analysis; it's very damaging. Yes, we sin and we should be repenting of it but just because often we forget to doesn't mean we are not Christians. You simply can't pray about every sin you commit, you can't even live that way. Just know yourself forgiven and pray for the work of the Holy Spirit in your life.

God bless you!

Click to expand...

So our sins are already forgiven, even before we commit them? Why then, do we even need to confess our sins to God and ask for His forgiveness, as John outlines in 1 John 1:9? Is this just to remind ourselves of our dependency on God? If I murder someone, I may not feel bad about it right away, but later on I might repent and feel terrible about it. But if I don't pray and ask for forgiveness, does that mean I am forgiven anyway?

I understand the point you are trying to make, but I am at a place in my life where I feel a definite need to confess to God every sin I am conscious of committing. This doesn't mean that I call every little vague feeling of guilt the Holy Spirit's conviction, because I know Satan accuses us as well. But if I am conscious that something is definitely a sin, no matter how insignificant man would view it, I will go to God in prayer and confess and ask His forgiveness.

Perhaps I am being too introspective, but I am always focused on my inner self, examining my motives and letting God's light shine on the root of all sin, which is in my heart. The external sins bother me, to be sure, but I know that they are only the branches of the tree. The root must be destroyed, before the branches can wither.

strelok0017 · Jan 7, 2012

We don't need to. Life of a Christian comes from the nature of our heart, not from en external source like the law. It is a nature of a Christian to repent of sin. Repentance is not perfect but we know that sin distances us from God.
Remember that whatever we do we should do it love. Paul said in Romans not to do owe anyone anything except love. God loves us and because that is so we are enabled to love Him and others. It is a gift! Repentance is a gift. We should pray for it like crazy, every day. Not to get saved but because we are.

It is good to question your motives but more important is to pray for the change of your heart. Not just once, before you got saved but every day. Without Jesus (talking about myself now) I know that I'm just as evil as the devil is. My heart has to be changed every day in a sense. It is new but it is not perfect yet, it is proud and worldly. This is a different topic now. Christians don't sin unto death.

Seeking His Face · Jan 7, 2012

Robs07M6S said:
Your missing the point and thats not what strelok is implying. Believers will still sin after they have been saved, the difference is that they have the indwelling Holy Spirit who convicts them and in turn the believer will repent. There is a constant struggle with sin in the believers life but with the believer he has the indwelling Holy Spirit to help him overcome the temptation to sin.

The difference is that the unbeliever makes a practice of sin and unrighteousness with no concern and no repentance, unlike the believer who realizes when he sins and then repents of that sin.

1 John 3:9-10
9 sNo one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for Gods2 seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, tnor is the one who udoes not love his brother.

In short I do not believe the sin unto death is committed by a believer because its in contradiction with what 1 John 3:9-10 says and if you pay close attention to the passage concerning sin unto death you will see that "brother" is only in contrast with those that sin not unto death.

So "brother" doesn't necessarily imply a fellow believer, then, but in the passage about sinning unto death it refers to an unbeliever. That seems to make more sense. So we are to pray for believers who sin, that they would repent and turn back to God, but not for unbelievers? Would praying for an unbeliever to turn to God be casting my pearls before swine?

strelok0017 · Jan 7, 2012

Seeking His Face said:
So "brother" doesn't necessarily imply a fellow believer, then, but in the passage about sinning unto death it refers to an unbeliever. That seems to make more sense. So we are to pray for believers who sin, that they would repent and turn back to God, but not for unbelievers? Would praying for an unbeliever to turn to God be casting my pearls before swine?

No, we should pray for repentance. It does't talk about any specific verse, it's about repentance.
Basically, pray that they repent.

Check out www.bible.cc

There are some good commentaries there.

Seeking His Face · Jan 7, 2012

strelok0017 said:
We don't need to. Life of a Christian comes from the nature of our heart, not from en external source like the law. It is a nature of a Christian to repent of sin. Repentance is not perfect but we know that sin distances us from God.
Remember that whatever we do we should do it love. Paul said in Romans not to do owe anyone anything except love. God loves us and because that is so we are enabled to love Him and others. It is a gift! Repentance is a gift. We should pray for it like crazy, every day. Not to get saved but because we are.

It is good to question your motives but more important is to pray for the change of your heart. Not just once, before you got saved but every day. Without Jesus (talking about myself now) I know that I'm just as evil as the devil is. My heart has to be changed every day in a sense. It is new but it is not perfect yet, it is proud and worldly. This is a different topic now. Christians don't sin unto death.

There is a lot of truth there. I used to think that repentance was something I had to do, but then I learned that God will do everything that we strive in vain to do ourselves, and that our own efforts to be holy just serve to hinder God from changing us, which is really the only way that we ever will truly change.

Robs07M6S · Jan 7, 2012

Seeking His Face said:
So we are to pray for believers who sin, that they would repent and turn back to God, but not for unbelievers? Would praying for an unbeliever to turn to God be casting my pearls before swine?

We should never stop praying for unbelievers as long as they have not sinned unto death, what were you before you became a believer? an unbeliever right?

I believe the sin unto death is a very serious and specific sin against the Spirit of God that only an unbeliever can commit, you see as long as God is dealing with a man about his lost condition that man has hope of being saved and God will prompt you as a believer to pray for such a person.

However there comes a point of resistance in the unbelievers life that God will finally and completely withdraw the convicting power of the Holy Spirit, this likely only happens when an unbeliever continues to sin willfully and defiantly against the promptings of the Holy Ghost to turn from his sin and turn to God.

Once this point has been reached God only knows but at the same time God will no longer prompt the believer to pray for such a one who God has determined to never save.

Seeking His Face · Jan 7, 2012

There are many who believe that the "sin unto death" denotes a mortal sin, as opposed to a venial sin, that a believer has committed. However, even if a believer commits a "mortal" sin, why should we stop praying for that believer? There is always hope that he will repent, as long as he is alive on this earth.

I began this thread with the intention of posing a "trick question" to Baptists, who I know believe in eternal security. However, I am now questioning my own beliefs. I believe in a conditional security that is based on obedience, not works, because I know that our good works are absolutely nothing. I do, however, believe we should be obeying the commands of Christ and doing God's will, not coasting along on the premise that we are saved and we can do whatever we want now.

I have been to an independent fundamental Baptist church, which preaches that if a believer sins enough, God will basically take that believer's life so he can no longer sin. I don't know if all Baptists believe this, but I had never heard that idea before, and frankly, it rubs me the wrong way, not only because it takes away man's free will, but also because I had never read it in scripture and it sounded preposterous.

Bella Vita · Jan 7, 2012

I completely disagree with this if a person is sinning without repentance then they were never really believers or saved in the first place. A person is changed when the holy spirit enters them their heart is softened. They feel conviction and no longer want to disappoint God they want to do God's work. Not to say that they will be perfect but they will want to go to God when they sin and ask for forgiveness. I believe they are taking that scripture totally out of context.

ESV Study Notes...

1 John 5:16-17 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

Sin not leading to death is sin for which forgiveness is possible because (1) forgiveness is sought and (2) God is willing to grant it. Death and eternal life are present spiritual states as well as ultimate actual destinies (hell, heaven). Sin that leads to death is probably sin that is (1) unrepented of and (2) of the kind or nature that John has warned about throughout the letter: resolute rejection of the true doctrine about Christ, chronic disobedience to God’s commandments, persistent lack of love for fellow believers—all indications of a lack of saving faith—which will not be forgiven. I do not say. John leaves open whether to pray for that situation if it arises. It would be better in such cases to pray for repentance. 1 John 5:17 All wrongdoing is a matter of grave concern given God’s utter perfection and zealous love. However, not all sin leads to death, so Christians should be proactive in praying for their own and others’ forgiveness.

Seeking His Face · Jan 8, 2012

Bella Vita said:
I completely disagree with this if a person is sinning without repentance then they were never really believers or saved in the first place.

That is a cop-out, for the purpose of maintaining loyalty to the doctrine of eternal security. Not that eternal security is a completely false doctrine, but still, that is a cop-out.

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