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What do you think ought to happen if a Christian changed their mind about believing the Incarnation or rejected Sola Scriptura?
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What do you think ought to happen if a Christian changed their mind about believing the Incarnation or rejected Sola Scriptura?Changing a theological view or teaching is not being discussed by Paul in 1 Corinthians 5. He's addressing immorality.
So if one has a church member or family member who is unrepentant of their sin, then Matthew 18:15-18 applies. When one is repentant of said sin then we are to restore them to the fellowship as in Galatians 6:1-2
Just out of curiosity. Is living together outside of marriage not sexual immorality?For the reasons you've given No the bible doesnot teach 'shunning'.
The passage you've quoted is about gross physical sins and about those who have been challenged about their behaviour and have not tried to change.
The biblical practice is for a 'sinner' to be talked to by someone, then for the leadership to talk several times with the 'sinner', if there is no change then it is brought before the church and they are formally excluded from taking communion, they may attend church.
For them to be excluded from attending church there rejection of a christian life style would have to be blatent, as in the quote.
There are no grounds for shunning someone just because they are YEC or reject KJ only, are pedo baptists, etc
It is an abuse if it happens because of devorce, living together, or being sent to prison.
Are you saying that God gave us bad advice in the Bible? It is the very word of God.The bible can be a mixed feast with good things and horrible things in it. I think that Christians try very hard to read it in an exclusively good light as much as they can. Some advice in scripture is fairly bad advice when applied to situations today. So the scriptures that deal with shunning are also mixed and some are good and pastoral while others seem harsh.
Okay, I can give examples but will you explain them away?Are you saying that God gave us bad advice in the Bible? It is the very word of God.
Can you give an example?
Shunning would not be a consideration.What do you think ought to happen if a Christian changed their mind about believing the Incarnation or rejected Sola Scriptura?
Well my response would be that that verse is not instructional. Nor is it advice. It is matter of fact.Okay, I can give examples but will you explain them away?
I came to cast fire on the earth, and would that it were already kindled! I have a baptism to be baptised with, and how great is my distress until it is accomplished! Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division. For from now on in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law. (Luke 12:49-53)If you come to Christ with the intention of having division and turning against mother, father, sister, or brother who have not come to Christ then is that a good thing or not?
People take verses and apply them to situations that they think the verses may address and it does not always matter what the context for the verse may be it doesn't stop them being applied.Well my response would be that that verse is not instructional. Nor is it advice. It is matter of fact.
Jesus is just speaking of the division the gospel causes because of the unbelievers hatred of it. I think you can easily see that in the world.
Does the bible teach shunning of friends and family whenever they change their mind about any belief taught in your church?
I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. Purge the evil person from among you. (I Corinthians 5:9-13)
Some use the above passage as justification for shunning.
No, definitely not. Paul's meaning seems pretty clear -- those that continue (thus without repenting) in serious sins he lists there. It's a list like that in 1 Cor 6:9-10, the list of serious sins that would prevent entering the Life to come. Further, when someone is unconverted (as evidenced by such), it's not precisely shunning we should do, but rather we are saying 'don't come to church service if you persist in being unrepentant of major sin', which isn't shunning at all, because you can still contact them and testify to them, and help them learn the gospel (which sometimes they simply don't yet really know correctly).Does the bible teach shunning of friends and family whenever they change their mind about any belief taught in your church?
I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. Purge the evil person from among you. (I Corinthians 5:9-13)
Some use the above passage as justification for shunning.
So how do you take my response? Just by the way the verse was written you can tell it's not instructional.People take verses and apply them to situations that they think the verses may address and it does not always matter what the context for the verse may be it doesn't stop them being applied.
I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control. (I Timothy 2:8-15)Here a passage with several things presented that are sometimes taken as advisory and applicable to women, especially, in church.
Was it one of the churches connected with that French Archbishop who objected to John XXIII and the Second Vatican council?
Wait. You were not kicked out? You left? Made new friends elsewhere? Had you stayed what might have been different?
I think it is proposing something like shunning and I think it is bad advice. Shunning is cruel. When religion makes you do bad things then the religion is probably a bad religion.What do you think the passage is commanding of believers, if not something like shunning?
Is there some better way to interpret what Paul writes here? He certainly engaged in some shunning when he ordered the casting out of the sinning brother from the Corinthian church! Was he wrong to do so? What do you do with Paul's observation that a "little leaven leavens the whole lump" which he makes in the same chapter from which your quotation above is derived?
Do you expect women to be silent in church?So how do you take my response? Just by the way the verse was written you can tell it's not instructional.
I do agree that many people misuse scriptures. How is your second example bad advice? What is the context? It's not cultural. He goes back to Adam and Eve. It's general, meaning it applies to everyone.
I think it is proposing something like shunning and I think it is bad advice. Shunning is cruel. When religion makes you do bad things then the religion is probably a bad religion.
We only know one person from my old parish that still goes there. It is a campus ministry sort of place and we're no longer of that age. But I have kept up with four families of people who we met there. It was a deliberate thing to do so. Otherwise drift is to be expected.It's a little complicated, but one of the main reasons I left was that I stopped driving and the church was a 30 minute drive from where I was. The public transportation wouldn't get me out there. And they knew that. I am 100% sure of that. Now, doctrinally, I've changed and I wouldn't go back, but there was a long time that I gladly would have gone if I could have got out there.
Since I left, I ran into other people who went there and said once they started questioning and/or left, they lost their friendships. It's hard to say how much is deliberate and how much is just life. That's just my only experience with anything like shunning.
How does Paul regard women in the church? Very highly. You can easily find examples of that. So it would be a bit confusing if he was tearing down women somewhere else.Do you expect women to be silent in church?
I do think of scripture as inspired.Interesting. So, I take it you don't see the Bible as a divinely-inspired text, serving the purposes which Paul outlined to Timothy in 2 Timothy 3:16-17?
It's bad and cruel on the basis of morality and decency. Asking a parent to shun a child or a brother/sister to shun a sibling is advocating family breakup. If religion does that then it is bad religion. If some family members decide they cannot tolerate having a Christian in their midst then that is a different thing but when the Christians shun family members who have left the "faith" - perhaps to follow Christ in a different denomination - then the "faith" is bad.On what basis do you decide that shunning is "cruel" or a "bad thing"?
Against what standard are you making this assessment? If one is going to call a line crooked, one must have some idea of a straight line against which to compare it. Since, apparently, the Bible isn't the place from which you derive your "straight line," what is?
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