Should religious belief inform public policy?

ZNP · Jul 19, 2020

Caliban said:
No--wrong!!! Every continent had religious cultures and practices. That does n to mean every human on the earth is religious. In the modern West--religion is in decline.

Really? Religion is in decline? According to the definition you supplied you are saying that the number of people who believe in a deity, higher power, etc. is in decline? Are you saying that fewer people today agree with the golden rule to do unto others as you would have them do to you? How do you even measure that? With polls?

It seems to me people all over the world are expressing themselves in great numbers in support of caring for the poor and fighting corruption. The success and resonance of the BLM protests is an excellent way to measure this and worldwide they are getting wonderful response.

Caliban · Jul 19, 2020

ZNP said:
Really? Religion is in decline? According to the definition you supplied you are saying that the number of people who believe in a deity, higher power, etc. is in decline? Are you saying that fewer people today agree with the golden rule to do unto others as you would have them do to you? How do you even measure that? With polls?

It seems to me people all over the world are expressing themselves in great numbers in support of caring for the poor and fighting corruption. The success and resonance of the BLM protests is an excellent way to measure this and worldwide they are getting wonderful response.

Religion is in decline--that is a fact. You are not just disagreeing with me, but every expert who studies this-including religious scholars. Your non-standard definition of religion is shared by no one.

Religion Is on the Decline as More Adults Check ‘None’—Wall Street Journal

Religion declining in importance for many Americans, especially for Millennials—Religion News Service

In U.S., Decline of Christianity Continues at Rapid Pace: An update on America's changing religious landscape—Pew Research

ZNP · Jul 19, 2020

Caliban said:
Religion is in decline--that is a fact. You are not just disagreeing with me, but every expert who studies this-including religious scholars. Your non-standard definition of religion is shared by no one.

Religion Is on the Decline as More Adults Check ‘None’—Wall Street Journal

Religion declining in importance for many Americans, especially for Millennials—Religion News Service

In U.S., Decline of Christianity Continues at Rapid Pace: An update on America's changing religious landscape—Pew Research

Oh, you are using the definition of "organized religion". The term corruption is analogous to decay. Organized religion is corrupt, that is in decay or in your term "decline". They are spotted with the world, some of these denominations have billion dollar trust funds. Many are involved in politics. Both are examples of being spotted by the world.

A little background on James, he was caught up in the whole "Judaizer" episode with the church, that was when the church was "spotted by the world". His 5 chapters discuss how to avoid this kind of error. Judaism was the organized religion at the time, they were trying to put the church under their control, that is what James is referring to as being "spotted by the world". He learned from his error and then taught the church how to avoid that error.

Caliban · Jul 19, 2020

ZNP said:
Oh, you are using the definition of "organized religion". The term corruption is analogous to decay. Organized religion is corrupt, that is in decay or in your term "decline". They are spotted with the world, some of these denominations have billion dollar trust funds. Many are involved in politics. Both are examples of being spotted by the world.

A little background on James, he was caught up in the whole "Judaizer" episode with the church, that was when the church was "spotted by the world". His 5 chapters discuss how to avoid this kind of error. Judaism was the organized religion at the time, they were trying to put the church under their control, that is what James is referring to as being "spotted by the world". He learned from his error and then taught the church how to avoid that error.

Of course I am using the term that way--wow--I gave you an explicit definition earlier. And now you say "Oh."

The opinion of James on this topic is uninteresting to me.

ZNP · Jul 19, 2020

Caliban said:
Of course I am using the term that way--wow--I gave you an explicit definition earlier. And now you say "Oh."

The opinion of James on this topic is uninteresting to me.

As a scientist you aren't interested in understanding why man has had religion for as long as we have had civilization? In the last 10,000 years man is the most successful species on this planet, all of those advances can be attributed to a very small number of factors, in fact I think Dr. E.O. Wilson's research on Eusocial species sums up all the factors very nicely. Seems fascinating to me, because unlike the other eusocial species, and there are very few of them, only man is taught to be a eusocial species.

After all, how do you explain religion? It seems illogical and without any benefit. If that were the case the theory of evolution should suggest that this trait would quickly die out, instead it is totally pervasive. Even you, an atheist, agree that the definition James gives of religion would mean you are religious.

The definition James gives of "pure religion" is analogous to the definition Dr. Wilson gives of a eusocial species.

Caliban · Jul 19, 2020

ZNP said:
As a scientist you aren't interested in understanding why man has had religion for as long as we have had civilization? In the last 10,000 years man is the most successful species on this planet, all of those advances can be attributed to a very small number of factors, in fact I think Dr. E.O. Wilson's research on Eusocial species sums up all the factors very nicely. Seems fascinating to me, because unlike the other eusocial species, and there are very few of them, only man is taught to be a eusocial species.

After all, how do you explain religion? It seems illogical and without any benefit. If that were the case the theory of evolution should suggest that this trait would quickly die out, instead it is totally pervasive. Even you, an atheist, agree that the definition James gives of religion would mean you are religious.

I think Daniel Dennett is right about the rise of religion in our species. Religious instincts are a feature of evolutionary memes and advantage of type 1 and type two errors.

ZNP · Jul 19, 2020

Caliban said:
I think Daniel Dennett is right about the rise of religion in our species. Religious instincts are a feature of evolutionary memes and advantage of type 1 and type two errors.

Of course you do, group think of Atheists. Hard to be an atheist and not think that religion is an "error". Instead of thinking you are using a faulty definition of religion. You are unable to get out of your little box.

You started this thread, you asked this question, why not rephrase this question:

What government policies are not "religious" based on the definition given by James?

There are some, because the contract we have with government is that they will keep us safe from murderers, whether criminals or foreign invaders. Basically the same contract apes have with the silver back. But apes are not religious. Orphans are killed by the new leader. There are no widows, they are all part of the leaders harem. No ape would dare question whether their leader was corrupt.

Caliban · Jul 19, 2020

ZNP said:
You are unable to get out of your little box.

No, I used to be in your box actually. I can change my opinion when encountering strong evidence.

ZNP said:
What government policies are not "religious" based on the definition given by James?

Again, James' non-standard of religion is inapplicable here. You are trying to take this discussion down a road that no one will go down with you by claiming everyone is religious. It's simply not true.

ZNP · Jul 19, 2020

Caliban said:
I think Daniel Dennett is right about the rise of religion in our species. Religious instincts are a feature of evolutionary memes and advantage of type 1 and type two errors.

I don't know if everyone is familiar with this theory that religion is a feature of evolutionary memes.

According to Dennett the term «meme» is appropriate if it designates this set of adaptive resources of each species arising from the play of interactions between neural networks, mimesis and memory. Memes are already present in animal species and are proper to each species. However, they are also present in the human species. We have a legacy of genes which constitutes our basic biology, but we also have a legacy of memes which constitutes our culture. This is a structure of memes, forming coherent systems, which is inevitably transmitted (remember the memeplexes of Susan Blackmore). This is naturally open and never closed.

The idea is that religion is a conduct produced by a memetic structure.

Daniel Dennett tells us that religion is a meme, it has a memetic structure. From here he reaches the surprising conclusion: religion is a natural phenomenon.

The structure of his book is very simple. Religion arose in primitive times due to irra- tional fear of the clamour and threats of nature. Thus, it was constituted as a meme which has been unceasingly replicated down to us.

Dennett insist that he only seeks the Darwinist analysis of religion from a point of view of evolutionary biology (we think he should rather say the evolutionary psycholo- gy of culture).

This raises several questions.

1. According to this theory it arises naturally due to neural networks, mimesis and memory. Why then have do we not see evidence of religion in any other species?

This theory does not explain why man alone has religion.

2. He is seeking a Darwinist analysis of religion. I suspect that this is referring to the theory of evolution, survival of the fittest, and that religion has somehow made man fitter. Yet his theory does not in any way explain how this has conferred an evolutionary advantage. Why say that it arose from "irrational fears" if it is conferring an evolutionary advantage? If it is not conferring an evolutionary advantage then how is this a Darwinist analysis of religion?

Consider this in the context of this thread. What other species has "public policy"? What other species would ask if religious belief should inform public policy? There are millions of species, if religion is a natural process that results because of neuronal networks why is it we don't see evidence of that in any other species?

The entire theory of evolution is based on the idea of "random mutations", similar to the flip of a dice. Given enough flips any and all variations will appear. Yet this variation has not appeared in anyone but man, and yet it appears in every human society on earth for all human history. The odds are trillions to 1.

A memeplex replicates "virally" according to Dennett. A virus is not part of our DNA. According to this theory religion is like a virus that has infected all of mankind. It is truly extraordinary to have a virus that has so thoroughly infected a single species for so long. It may seem less extraordinary now that we have Globalization, but ten thousand years ago many of these societies did not have any interaction with each other and yet they were all thoroughly infected. Another extraordinary thing about this "virus" is that it has not jumped to another species. A virus the infects our cattle will jump to humans, a virus that infects our poultry will jump to humans, why is it that the virus that infects the humans doesn't jump to any of these species we have been so close to?

So according to Dennett it acts like a virus, only it doesn't, at least not like any other virus we are familiar with. It acts according to Darwin's theory of evolution only it doesn't. Unlike that theory the survival of this trait is not due to any evolutionary advantage. According to Dennett it is due to a natural phenomenon in neural networks common to many other species, only it isn't. We don't see this phenomenon in any other species.

As a result many consider his theory to be pseudo science lacking in basis (Alister McGrath, Oxford), or false scientificism (Leon Wieseltier, NY Times book review).

(quotes in purple are from DANIEL DENNETT, MEMES AND RELIGION, Reasons for the Historical Persistence of Religion, GUILLERMO ARMENGOL Chair of Science, Technology and Religion, Universidad Comillas)

Should religious belief inform public policy?