Should and why do good people that are non believers go to hell?

TheQuietRiot said:

Except against the tribesman of course.

Is it his fault he was born and lived with no knowledge of Christ?

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I don't choose who is saved and who is not, God does.

No, but he had enough of the Law written on his heart to be a law unto himself. Thus, he stands condemned with all man.

Rather than pick a pagan tribesman, you could also pick any of our heathen ancestors before the Christianization of Europe. It'd make no difference.

SinnerInTheHands said:

I don't choose who is saved and who is not, God does.

No, but he had enough of the Law written on his heart to be a law unto himself. Thus, he stands condemned with all man.

Rather than pick a pagan tribesman, you could also pick any of our heathen ancestors before the Christianization of Europe. It'd make no difference.

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You can confirm that a child molesting, mass murdering rapist would get to heaven if he truly accepted Christ, but cannot confirm that a tribesman who had not heard of the gospel would not?

TheQuietRiot said:

There is a good reason why there is thousands of denominations of Christianity.

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Yes, it's called people wanting to create easier ways for themselves because following the faith as it was traditioned is not easy. So, now we're in a position of having schismatics of schismatics out there following doctrines of men.

TheQuietRiot said:

You can confirm that a child molesting, mass murdering rapist would get to heaven if he truly accepted Christ, but cannot confirm that a tribesman who had not heard of the gospel would not?

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Yes, with an emphasis on "truly".

TheQuietRiot said:

Clearly not, as the numerous different Christians posting on this thread have sometimes wildly different views on Hell/Heaven and the requirements to go to such places.
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And guess what? They all use the Bible as their source.

There is a good reason why there is thousands of denominations of Christianity.

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I think "wildly different" is a bit over-stated. And the presence of debate and differing perspectives on what the Bible says is no more a reason to dismiss it than argument over the best route to take to Toronto is reason to throw out the road map of Ontario.

The reasons for the wide array of denominations are not always directly related to difference of biblical interpretation. In fact, all of the evangelical churches in my city hold the same basic core truths of the faith in common. Some are German Baptist, or Swedish Baptist, or Mennonite in extraction; some have a cultural heritage with roots in Africa, or China, or Japan; some differ according to organizational structure; some differ in their doctrinal emphasis (as opposed to interpretation); some are merely stylistically distinct (aimed at youth, or at the "seeker," or at a more traditional sort of service), and so on. Regardless, from Missionary Alliance to Baptist, Presbyterian to Church of the Nazarene all hold the truths of the Gospel in exactly the same way. The denominational differences aren't always (or even mostly), then, indications of an impossibly vague biblical text. But I understand why you, as an atheist, would like to think so.

You also might want to take into consideration the fact that not all interpretations of the Scripture are equal. Sometimes, the differences in interpretation of the Bible do not stand shoulder-to-shoulder as equally valid. Some interpretations, actually, are patently false. Bad hermeneutics (or none at all), cultural and personal bias, force of tradition - these all are often at work corrupting a right and valid understanding of the biblical text. It isn't, then, that the Bible is generally unclear and confused - quite the opposite, actually - but that people have philosophical, moral and intellectual filters that may (and do) warp a proper reading of the Bible.

Selah.

TheQuietRiot said:

So a mass murdering child molesting rapist can go to heaven if he repents and truly has faith in Christ?

But the tribesman living in remote rainforest who has never heard of Christ burns in hell?

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I can't say that. We know where the Church is, but only God knows everyone that is in it. God judges the heart. Christ preached to the dead in hades. Our icons of the resurrection show Christ raising Adam and Eve from the grave and surrounded by the righteous dead. The resurrection is an event outside of time.

SinnerInTheHands said:

Yes, with an emphasis on "truly".

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Well, that indicates to me that god is rather twisted.

That he does not care about the untold suffering that a Christian may inflict on other people as long as he accepts Christ.

But a good man who has only tried to help others will suffer and burn in Hell for simply being ignorant to the gospel.

TheQuietRiot said:

But a good man who has only tried to help others will suffer and burn in Hell for simply being ignorant to the gospel.

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"There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one." [Romans 3:10-12]

SinnerInTheHands said:

"There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one." [Romans 3:10-12]

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Conveniently leaving out that Romans was directly quoting from the OT and how it goes on to say in verse 19 that that was speaking to those under the law. By verse 21 we're told that righteousness of God apart from the law is now revealed in the person of Christ.

TheQuietRiot said: ↑
But a good man who has only tried to help others will suffer and burn in Hell for simply being ignorant to the gospel.


The Lord will not reject anyone who He knows was truly good. Preaching the Gospel is not to condemn but to proclaim His salvation to us & to tell our neighbor that we have a certainty of salvation by grace by faith in Him in a living commitment. Those who do not know Him are in peril but He will approve those who truly did good. When the Lord tells us not to judge others, I believe He especially means those He knew to be good even if they did not comprehend His Gospel message by faith.


John 5:22-29New King James Version (NKJV)

22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Life and Judgment Are Through the Son
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

TheQuietRiot said:

So a mass murdering child molesting rapist can go to heaven if he repents and truly has faith in Christ?

But the tribesman living in remote rainforest who has never heard of Christ burns in hell?

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Yes on the first, it's possible. If it were not possible for him, it would not be possible for anyone.

"It depends" is the proper answer for the second. One would have to decide first whether Job was saved, and if so, what saved him.

TheQuietRiot said:

You can confirm that a child molesting, mass murdering rapist would get to heaven if he truly accepted Christ, but cannot confirm that a tribesman who had not heard of the gospel would not?

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Look up "inclusivism" for that. CS Lewis was an outspoken inclusivist. Billy Graham is an inclusivist. So am I. But inclusivism is not universalism.

For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.
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From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him... -- Acts 17

God isn't playing "Stump the Dummy"* with man. It is possible for a man to seek God and find God without having actually heard the gospel, and such a man becomes a "covenant unto himself."

He is not a mere mortal like me that I might answer him, that we might confront each other in court.

If only there were someone to mediate between us, someone to bring us together, someone to remove God’s rod from me, so that his terror would frighten me no more.

Then I would speak up without fear of him, but as it now stands with me, I cannot. -- Job 9

Job, you see, knew he needed Jesus without knowing the name of Jesus.

*"Stump the Dummy" is when a person in authority hurls a challenge at a subordinate that he knows he's never permitted the subordinate sufficient resources to perform.

TheQuietRiot said:

Except against the tribesman of course.

Is it his fault he was born and lived with no knowledge of Christ?

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What may not seem obvious given the way many Christians speak on such things is that there are many, many issues which there simply does not exist an "official" Christian perspective. When we look through the history of the Christian Church we can see all sorts of theological questions being raised, argued, discussed, and with more definitive conclusions--such as the Incarnation which was, in many ways, the central topic of all seven of the ancient ecumenical councils.

But then there are topics of theological speculation that simply don't have a definitive answer, there has never been a definitive historic consensus; different Christian groups may have positions one way or the other, but in terms of what we might call the consensus of the faithful there is no "the answer".

The topic of hell is precisely one of those issues. There has never existed a definitive, orthodox affirmation on the issue of "hell". Likewise the consensus of the faithful over a question such as "what of those who have never heard the Gospel" has no answer; it exists in the realm of faith and hope. The faith is in the God who makes Himself known in the Person of Jesus who offers Himself for the whole world, the hope is that the salvation of everyone is in the hands of this God--and therefore His judgment and mercy shall, indeed, be truly righteous.

I would further want to expand on what is meant by "judgment" here, the idea of "judgment" frequently has very specific connotations in many people's minds--judging criminals as guilty and sentencing them for punishment; but that's not what judgment is or means. Judgment, in the biblical sense, involves justice or righteousness--the act of setting or making things right. An example might be a widow whose rights have been taken away or violated by another, a wealthy person taking away a widow's property rights; she would therefore go to court to make her appeal, and the court's judgment to restore her rights and property would be, indeed, judgment, righteousness. This is the reason why, frequently, in the Psalms and the Prophets the writers speak of God's coming judgment as something to be celebrated. Because when God judges He, being good, merciful, and just, will make things right; He will restore what is lost, He will mend what is broken, He will heal what is ill.

The Judgment of and Justice of God is first and foremost always about God making things right. In the New Testament that judgment and justice is understood through the death and resurrection of Jesus whereby God is bringing about new creation, bringing restoration to the world, that includes forgiveness of sin. In forgiving sinners, in justifying and sanctifying sinners, this is God judging and judging justly.

So when we talk about people in the light of Christ, His death, resurrection, ascension, and coming again we are talking about the God of new creation--this is the good God of righteous judgment setting things right; the New Testament describes what that looks like for the people of God, the baptized; and the the stark reality of what existence outside of this setting-things-right looks like (at least in small degrees); but there is no wholly all-comprehensive picture offered. The present state of things is falling away as God brings renewal and restoration to the world and there will be those who will insist on being part of that which is falling and fading away--but the ultimate vision in the Bible isn't so much a black and white good guys and bad guys rewards and punishments that we typically envision. Instead the ultimate vision in the Bible is the total restoration of all things, of all creation, heaven and earth; and the coming together of heaven and earth as the heavenly city is brought down, and we read that in the middle of the city is the tree of life affixed on both sides of a river "whose leaves are for the healing of the nations".

The ultimate vision of the Bible is healing, renewal, restoration. It is the vision of hope.

So where does the hypothetical tribesman fit into this narrative? He's there in the vision of hope--however and whatever, in the end, that truly looks like.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

The Judgment of and Justice of God is first and foremost always about God making things right. In the New Testament that judgment and justice is understood through the death and resurrection of Jesus whereby God is bringing about new creation, bringing restoration to the world, that includes forgiveness of sin. In forgiving sinners, in justifying and sanctifying sinners, this is God judging and judging justly.

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I'm going to quibble with you here, which I do with trepidation because I strongly respect your points of view and how you argue them.

But you have already said

But then there are topics of theological speculation that simply don't have a definitive answer, there has never been a definitive historic consensus; different Christian groups may have positions one way or the other, but in terms of what we might call the consensus of the faithful there is no "the answer"

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and I think that has to be true of "the judgment of God" as well. IMO, the basis of the judgment of God will be what it takes to establish an eternity of peace...and the results of that are likely to startle and surprise every one of us