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Oh yes, to answer your question, I discount the opinion of Christian historians for the same reason that I would discount the opinion of a beauty pageant judge whose daughter is a contestant.Why, exactly? Atheists are no less biased than Christians or Jews. They're just biased differently. Ehrman's not too bad, but he's still got his hangups.
The Jewish Annotated New Testament suggests that "poor in spirit" actually means humble, so for a very Jewish perspective on a very Jewish Gospel, there's that.
Oh yes, to answer your question, I discount the opinion of Christian historians for the same reason that I would discount the opinion of a beauty pageant judge whose daughter is a contestant.
Yeah, my theory was inspired by one of Bart Ehrman's writings (I can't remember which and it might have been his blog). I trust the interpretation of an atheist who knows Greek and the culture of the period (such as Ehrman). It is easy for later generations to imagine words to mean something entirely different, and that is what I suspect may be the case with your source on "poor in spirit".
I suppose you also believe Jesus was long haired and skinny according to tradition as well.John the Baptist was almost certainly an Essene and a role model for ascetics. Jesus and his early disciples were connected with John the Baptist. Jesus preached the same message as John the Baptist. James the brother of Jesus was an ascetic. Mary the mother of Jesus was an ascetic according to tradition. The description of early Christianity in Acts is ascetic. ... IDK what else to say.
EDIT: Also, according to Ehrman one of the distinguishing traits of the proto-orthodox Christians was an obsession with martyrs. Gnostics were ascetics too it seems. Of course there are degrees of asceticism. Apparently all Jews and Christians fasted at least two days per week. Of course later monks took it further by wearing chains and living on pillars or inside caves and so forth.
Oh yes, to answer your question, I discount the opinion of Christian historians for the same reason that I would discount the opinion of a beauty pageant judge whose daughter is a contestant.
Basically just read the sayings of Jesus in the synoptic gospels. Take the Sermon on the Mount: "blessed are the poor". Jesus was not saying "poor people, I know you had bad luck in this life, but God will make it up to you in the next life." No, Jesus was saying "renounce wealth, renounce social standing, etc." Look at the early Christians. They gave all their money to the commune. They abstained from sex - even if they were married. They were called "the poor".
Essentially the Crucifixion could be imagined to say "this is what will happen to you if you want to be my follower"
I imagine he was skinny by modern American standards. There is a fairly early church with frescos (Dura Europos ~240 CE) that might give some ideas about what people imagined Jesus looked like 200 years after his death.I suppose you also believe Jesus was long haired and skinny according to tradition as well.
I imagine he was skinny by modern American standards. There is a fairly early church with frescos (Dura Europos ~240 CE) that might give some ideas about what people imagined Jesus looked like 200 years after his death.
So you'd trust the opinion of a beauty pageant judge who hates one of the contestants instead? If I've learned anything from exploring Christianity, it's to be careful of trusting what skeptics have to say. They're not as neutral and rational as they'd like to claim.
I find the most value in liberal Christian scholarship, since they don't have an antagonistic relationship with the material but aren't afraid to tear it apart.
Not all atheists hate Christianity - especially now that Christianity is withering away in many cultures. An atheist in Europe is probably not going to have any hatred of Christianity, because Christianity mostly died in Europe in the 1960s. You might have a point on many American atheists though.
So how about restricting your reading to the thoughts of European atheist historians? That should be pretty unbiased
I agree that 200 years is a long time, but it's possible that certain traits might have been passed along if they were noteworthy. For example if Jesus had a wooden leg, then I would assume it might be remembered for 200 years.How in the world would a fresco from 200 plus years after Jesus lived give us much, if any, idea as to how Jesus actually looked? To assert this is to imply a bit more than just that a sprinkling of cultural inferences existed by which some 3rd century fresco painter created a supposed semblance of Jesus. To assert this would instead imply that there was some actual, ongoing transmission of historical data by which to imagine the painting of the fresco. But, don't you essentially deny that we have much, if anything, in the way of actual historical data regarding the person of Jesus?
I'm not impressed with Kallistos Ware (one example of an Oxford don I suppose). Honestly it's hard to respect any Christian historian. They are intimately acquainted with the historical data, but as Jesus might have said "they have no ears to hear the truth". They continue to cling to Christianity. There is no excuse for that stubborn attitude. Atheists aren't discriminated against anymore (except in Muslim countries), so Kallistos Ware needs to be honest with himself and become an atheist.I'm not sure what I should say to that. It pretty much discounts me all the way around ...
So, if you're presented with, say, a historian scholar from Oxford, it won't matter that he's an Ivy League don, you'll just discount him anyway if he happens to be Christian? ........wow. Ok.
I agree that 200 years is a long time, but it's possible that certain traits might have been passed along if they were noteworthy. For example if Jesus had a wooden leg, then I would assume it might be remembered for 200 years.
I imagine Jesus looked like an Essene holy man. Probably Jesus was middle-aged, because most Essene sects would not allow young people to join. I imagine Jesus was a short emaciated middle-aged guy. I don't know if he had a beard or if he cut his hair. Maybe Jesus was balding I suppose.
I assume that Essenes wore identifying clothing and might have had identifying hair styles - just like certain Jewish sects today. Also the Essenes were usually middle-aged or elderly men.And based on what specific sources do you compose your "imaging" of Jesus, Cloudy?
I'm not impressed with Kallistos Ware (one example of an Oxford don I suppose). Honestly it's hard to respect any Christian historian. They are intimately acquainted with the historical data, but as Jesus might have said "they have no ears to hear the truth". They continue to cling to Christianity. There is no excuse for that stubborn attitude. Atheists aren't discriminated against anymore (except in Muslim countries), so Kallistos Ware needs to be honest with himself and become an atheist.
So how about restricting your reading to the thoughts of European atheist historians? That should be pretty unbiased
I'm not impressed with Kallistos Ware. Honestly it's hard to respect any Christian historian. They are intimately acquainted with the historical data, but as Jesus might have said "they have no ears to hear the truth". They continue to cling to Christianity. There is no excuse for that stubborn attitude. Atheists aren't discriminated against anymore (except in Muslim countries), so Kallistos Ware needs to be honest with himself and become an atheist.
I assume that Essenes wore identifying clothing and might have had identifying hair styles - just like certain Jewish sects today. Also the Essenes were usually middle-aged or elderly men.
LOL, @genez asked me whether I thought Jesus was long-haired and skinny in post #264. I was trying to respond with my opinion. I'm not sure how this has become something where I need to give you references now. Don't hold your breath.That's not an answer to my question. Let me ask it again. By which specific books and/or articles are you basing your assumptions here about Jesus' and the Early Church's association with the Essenes? I'm leaving the possibility open that you are correct, but as in any class in college, you have to "show your work." I would assume that you have more than just two or three books by scholars to support your point of view, right?
LOL, @genez asked me whether I thought Jesus was long-haired and skinny in post #264. I was trying to respond with my opinion. I'm not sure how this has become something where I need to give you references now. Don't hold your breath.
I'm not impressed with Kallistos Ware (one example of an Oxford don I suppose). Honestly it's hard to respect any Christian historian. They are intimately acquainted with the historical data, but as Jesus might have said "they have no ears to hear the truth". They continue to cling to Christianity. There is no excuse for that stubborn attitude. Atheists aren't discriminated against anymore (except in Muslim countries), so Kallistos Ware needs to be honest with himself and become an atheist.
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