sexual immorality in Corinth

looking4joy · Jul 28, 2015

The man in 1 Cor 5 who was having relations with his step mother was removed from the church and sent to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit would be saved on the last day (vv 2 - 5). In 2 Cor 2:5-8, Paul talks of restoring a brother whose punishment was inflicted by the church, that now he ought to be forgiven and comforted, so that he might not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow.

Even though this may not be the same man specifically, is Paul talking about such a man as was in 1 Cor 5?

Steeno7 · Jul 28, 2015

looking4joy said:
The man in 1 Cor 5 who was having relations with his step mother was removed from the church and sent to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit would be saved on the last day (vv 2 - 5). In 2 Cor 2:5-8, Paul talks of restoring a brother whose punishment was inflicted by the church, that now he ought to be forgiven and comforted, so that he might not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow.

Even though this may not be the same man specifically, is Paul talking about such a man as was in 1 Cor 5?

I believe it is the same man.

Meowzltov · Jul 28, 2015

Who knows?

Frogster · Jul 28, 2015

looking4joy said:
The man in 1 Cor 5 who was having relations with his step mother was removed from the church and sent to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit would be saved on the last day (vv 2 - 5). In 2 Cor 2:5-8, Paul talks of restoring a brother whose punishment was inflicted by the church, that now he ought to be forgiven and comforted, so that he might not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow.

Even though this may not be the same man specifically, is Paul talking about such a man as was in 1 Cor 5?

Some scholars say it was not the same man, there was an altercation with someone when Paul went to Corinth, to which he wrote the "tearful latter" about, a letter we do not have. There are 4 letters we know of, but we only have 2. We have B and D, we are missing A and C.

Frogster · Jul 28, 2015

Open Heart said:
Who knows?

well, one was sent to the devil, one was forgiven, as paul asked them to forgive him also, most likely not the same chap in 2 Cor, as 1 Cor.

Meowzltov · Jul 28, 2015

Frogster said:
Some scholars say it was not the same man, there was an altercation with someone when Paul went to Corinth, to which he wrote the "tearful latter" about, a letter we do not have. There are 4 letters we know of, but we only have 2. We have B and D, we are missing A and C.

Now that's really kewl and fascinating Froggie.

LittleLambofJesus · Jul 28, 2015

Frogster said:
Some scholars say it was not the same man, there was an altercation with someone when Paul went to Corinth, to which he wrote the "tearful latter" about, a letter we do not have. There are 4 letters we know of, but we only have 2. We have B and D, we are missing A and C.

I didn't know that. Interesting. Perhaps those missing 2 letters could have clarified it for us.

.

Near · Jul 29, 2015

looking4joy said:
The man in 1 Cor 5 who was having relations with his step mother was removed from the church and sent to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit would be saved on the last day

What does that mean?
Also, it's not would, it's might.

http://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/5-5.htm

"might be saved"

By the way, that's a good verse to refute OSAS. It paints salvation in a conditional light.
It also refutes a workless faith salvation doctrine. Since Paul needs to do something to get this guy help.

Also, it seems like the same guy... not sure though

looking4joy · Aug 2, 2015

Endure2TheEnd said:
By the way, that's a good verse to refute OSAS. It paints salvation in a conditional light.

I've been unsure for years about OSAS. I call it "conditional eternal security." As long as one keeps Jesus' words, he has eternal security.

Meowzltov · Aug 2, 2015

looking4joy said:
I've been unsure for years about OSAS. I call it "conditional eternal security." As long as one keeps Jesus' words, he has eternal security.

There ya go

Steeno7 · Aug 3, 2015

looking4joy said:
I've been unsure for years about OSAS. I call it "conditional eternal security." As long as one keeps Jesus' words, he has eternal security.

Nope. It's conditional on Jesus keeping His word....

"I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand." John 10:28

He has, "set His seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.” 2 Cor 1:22

"And He will establish you to the end [keep you steadfast, give you strength, and guarantee your vindication; He will be your warrant against all accusation or indictment so that you will be] guiltless and irreproachable in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Cor 1:8

looking4joy · Aug 3, 2015

Steeno7 said:
Nope. It's conditional on Jesus keeping His word....

"I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand." John 10:28

He has, "set His seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.” 2 Cor 1:22

"And He will establish you to the end [keep you steadfast, give you strength, and guarantee your vindication; He will be your warrant against all accusation or indictment so that you will be] guiltless and irreproachable in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Cor 1:8

I struggle with this so much. I believe what you're saying, and you're absolutely right. I just struggle with it, that's all.

Achilles6129 · Aug 5, 2015

looking4joy said:
The man in 1 Cor 5 who was having relations with his step mother was removed from the church and sent to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit would be saved on the last day (vv 2 - 5). In 2 Cor 2:5-8, Paul talks of restoring a brother whose punishment was inflicted by the church, that now he ought to be forgiven and comforted, so that he might not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow.

Even though this may not be the same man specifically, is Paul talking about such a man as was in 1 Cor 5?

No, he could not have been. If he were, he wouldn't have used the phrase "destruction of the flesh," which means that he's going to physically die. I wonder if this is the "sin unto death" that John talks about?

"16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death." 1 Jn. 5:16-17 (NASB)

Meowzltov · Aug 5, 2015

Achilles6129 said:
"16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death." 1 Jn. 5:16-17 (NASB)

This is talking about spiritual death.

RDKirk · Aug 5, 2015

I don't think you're going to find too many reputable scholars who assert that it definitely could not have been the same person.

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness."

So are you saying that the lesson from scripture is that all sexually immoral persons are to be excommunicated by the Body of Christ and left to die alone in Satan...but he'll still be saved?

miamited · Aug 6, 2015

looking4joy said:
The man in 1 Cor 5 who was having relations with his step mother was removed from the church and sent to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit would be saved on the last day (vv 2 - 5). In 2 Cor 2:5-8, Paul talks of restoring a brother whose punishment was inflicted by the church, that now he ought to be forgiven and comforted, so that he might not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow.

Even though this may not be the same man specifically, is Paul talking about such a man as was in 1 Cor 5?

Hi L4J,

Just one small correction to your post. The Scriptures do not say that the man's soul 'would' be saved on the day of God's judgment, but that turning him out to the devil 'might' save his soul. This is the NIV rendering:

hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature 'may' be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

'May' is a word that denotes 'possibility'. For example: I' may go to work today'. I'm not saying that I definitely will, but that I 'may'.

The NAS moves the 'may' away from the issue of possible destruction and directly applies it to the man's possible salvation.

1 Corinthians 5:5 (NAS) I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Most translations do attach the 'may' to the latter issue of the man's salvation. They all depend on whether or not his flesh will actually be destroyed while under Satan's purview. The man might get turned out and find life just grand living under Satan's dominion.

There are only 2-3 translations that actually take the position that the man's spirit 'will' be saved on the day of destruction, but they, too, depend on whether or not his time with Satan will bring about the destruction of his flesh.

The word, in it's English iteration, is 'sōthē'. It is used also in John 3:17 talking about Jesus being sent into the world that the whole world 'might' be saved. However, we know from the Scriptures that the whole world will not be saved. There is quite a lot of Scripture devoted to the fact and explaining that not everyone will be saved. So, I believe the passage isn't giving any guarantee of the man's ultimate salvation unless he does allow his flesh to be destroyed while being put out of the fellowship.

That may be how you understand it, and if so disregard my post, but as I read it I was convicted that you may be thinking that the man's salvation was a sure thing by being turned out.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Achilles6129 · Aug 6, 2015

Open Heart said:
This is talking about spiritual death.

And how do you know that?

Achilles6129 · Aug 6, 2015

RDKirk said:
I don't think you're going to find too many reputable scholars who assert that it definitely could not have been the same person.

Ask them how exactly someone's flesh is destroyed yet they're still alive.

RDKirk said:
So are you saying that the lesson from scripture is that all sexually immoral persons are to be excommunicated by the Body of Christ and left to die alone in Satan...but he'll still be saved?

No, this scenario applies to this one particular person. Interestingly, I have started a thread in regards to sexual immorality. You can see what Scripture has to say on it there.

Meowzltov · Aug 6, 2015

Achilles6129 said:
And how do you know that?

Because it is the only thing that makes sense.

RDKirk · Aug 6, 2015

Achilles6129 said:
Ask them how exactly someone's flesh is destroyed yet they're still alive.

Well, now, how else is this concept used by Paul and elsewhere in scripture?

Paul says something similar in 1 Timothy:

"I have handed over Hymenaeus and Alexander to Satan so that they may be taught not to blaspheme."

In that verse, Paul states a goal: Hymenaeus and Alexander would stop blaspheming." The goal is not to kill them, but to correct their behavior. Apparently Paul's preaching and the congregation's urging is insufficient.

And in the case of the Corinthians, whatever has been done to that point (although it's clear the congregation has been encouraging the sin, if anything) has been insufficient, but Paul's goal is still the man's salvation. In neither case is Paul's goal the man's damnation...but in either case, if he does not repent before his death, damnation would be the result.

But where else does Paul use such a concept? Why, on himself!

To keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me—to keep me from exalting myself! -- 2 Corinthians 12.

And even from the Old Testament, the same concept again:

So the LORD said to Satan, 'Behold, he is in your power, only spare his life.' Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head. -- Job 2. And the result of this, Job says: "Now my eye sees you, and I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes." -- Job 4

What is the purpose of using Satan against the flesh? Not to condemn, but to prevent condemnation by physical humiliation. Satan's nature is apparently such that he can't help but take vicious advantage of being unleashed, even knowing God is using his evil for good.

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