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Seven daze? [moved from general theology]

Cribstyl

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Some of my friends claim that God created the world in seven literal days.
I have a few questions that you should be able to answer or think about.

1.What day if any were angels created?
2.Was it before creation or one of the 7days of creation?
3. If you think it was one of 7literal days, what day did Lucifer rebelled?
4. Why would 1/3 of the angels side with lucifer and abbandon their place if they only knew Lucifer for a short time?
 

Stryder06

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Well the angels were created sometime before the earth was. The rebellion in heaven happened sometime before the creation of the earth also so I guess that addresses questions 1-3.

As to why the angels sidded with Lucifer, who knows. Its just as sad as Lucifer rebellion and the reasons for both actions are wrapped in mystery.
 
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1whirlwind

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Excellent questions Cribstyl.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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The gap theory places an undetermined time between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2 which was the time that Lucifer ruled and rebelled, leaving a wasteland.

WikiAnswers - What is the Gap theory
Creation vs. Evolution - Gap Theory

Or the universe is 13.7 billion years old and Genesis is a beautiful parable.
I like things that make sence. The gap theory is how I can see it all fitting together. The bible isn't wrong, it has all the information. Just interpretations are make it difficult.
 
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Assyrian

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Or creation is exactly as God says it is and evolution is a deception born from the genius mind of the devil to deceive many.
Of course it is not as if God doesn't love to speak in metaphor and parables, but if you are going to claim science is a deception of the devil what make you think he only started in the nineteenth century? Why not heliocentrism and a round earth as well? They certainly caused problems for the literalists of their day.
 
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Stryder06

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Certain things are spoken in mysteries yes. More so then not this is found in prophetic writings and the parables of Christ.

And I didn't claim that science is a deception of the devil. I said evolution is.
 
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Assyrian

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How do you chose which sciences to accept and which to reject as deceptions? five hundred years ago it was heliocentrism that was turning everybody's interpretation of the bible upside down. In the early church you had literalists claiming the church was supping at the table of demons for accepting a round earth when the bible clearly said it was flat, in their interpretation anyway.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Or the universe is 13.7 billion years old and Genesis is a beautiful parable.
This hebrew site I had bookmarked for some years has some interesting insight on that

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/

Biblical Hebrew Poetry

The Poetry of Genesis Chapter One

*snip*

When we read Genesis chapter one we usually see only one story there, but there are actually many stories. Why don't we see these multiple stories? Because we read the Hebrew Bible from a Modern Western thinkers point of view and not from an Ancient Eastern thinkers such as the Hebrews who wrote it. The Hebrews style of writing is prolific with a style of poetry unfamiliar to most readers of the Bible. This poetry is nothing like the poetry we are used to reading today and therefore it is invisible to us.

The most common form of Hebrew poetry is called parallelism. Parallelism is when the writer says one thing in two or more different ways. The Psalms and Proverbs are filled with these such as the examples below.

Psalms 119:105 - "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path." The first part of this verse is paralleled with the second part. This verse is not saying two different things, rather, one thing in two different ways.
 
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Stryder06

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It doesn't bother me one way or another about what someone thought the bible said. The question is what does the bible say. You can twist it to mean anything as is evident. What really gets me is when the clear words of scripture are simply discarded.

It says seven days. It was seven days. I'm not really into science all like that so it's not about accepting this rejecting that. It's about seeing what the bible says and holding fast to that which is good. If man's teachings contradict what the bible says then I'm going to side with the bible.
 
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Cribstyl

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Agreed, if you know what I mean
 
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Assyrian

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Ok so you discard the opinions of people in the past about what they think is said. Well and good, it was just their opinion, instead all you are interested in is what the bible actually does say. Unfortunately, all you have to go on is your opinion which is really no more reliable than the opinion of the people you reject.

It says seven days. It was seven days.
Calvin and Luther thought the bible clearly described the sun going round the earth, Luther even called Copernicus a fool for contradicting what the bible plainly said. It is not enough to say the bible says x there for it means x, because you have got to know how God is talking to us in the passage. Jesus said he was a vine and a door, but we don't take it literally.

You may not be into science, but still you know enough science that you would not dream of questioning the world is spherical or that the earth goes round the sun. If you come across a text that speaks of the ends of the earth, says the earth is established it cannot be moved, or describes the sun rushing around to the place it rises, you would not dream of taking these verses at face value and thinking they mean the earth has edges and it is fixed in place while the sun goes around us. You would not dream of claiming these sciences are the deception of the devil. Yet when you read Genesis you take the opposite approach, your literal interpretation is the real meaning and the science must be wrong.

The only explanation I can see for the way Christians pick and choose which science to accept and which to reject, is how long the science has been around. So while you had teachers in the early church who rejected a round earth, by the time you got to the 15th century, a round earth was accepted without question and it was heliocentrism, the earth going round the sun, that was the great challenge to the authority of scripture. By the nineteenth century, a round earth was accepted without question, as was heliocentrism, it was the age of the earth and evolution that caused all the difficulties. Which suggests the big problem Christians are having with evolution today, is not that it contradicts scripture, it doesn’t contradict scripture any more than a round earth or heliocentrism, the real problem is the evolution simply hasn’t been around long enough for the church to get used to it and have forgotten the fuss it caused.
 
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Secundulus

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Some of my friends claim that God created the world in seven literal days.
I have a few questions that you should be able to answer or think about.

1.What day if any were angels created?
2.Was it before creation or one of the 7days of creation?
Here is one man's theory.

St. Augustine, The City of God.
To me it does not seem incongruous with the working of God, if we understand that the angels were created when that first light was made, and that a separation was made between the holy and the unclean angels, when, as is said, "God divided the light from the darkness; and God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night." For He alone could make this discrimination, who was able also before they fell, to foreknow that they would fall, and that, being deprived of the light of truth, they would abide in the darkness of pride.​
Schaff, P. (1997). The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers Vol. II (p 215). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems.
 
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Stryder06

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Stryder when did dinasaurs exist? Or is that a fabrication from the pits of hell?

You got me. At most I believe Dinosaurs existed before the flood and were most likely, for the most part, destroyed during that time.

I'm not exactly 100% sure that dinosaurs existed the way we say they did. That's one of those things however that doesn't bother me either way. I'm good with waiting till I get to heaven to find out about them.
 
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Stryder06

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What opinion? I'm not going off of any opinion when it comes to my understanding of the bible. I'd hope no one did that. I look to the Spirit to guide me in my understanding. I pray in earnest to be shown the truth in all matters.

1st) I'm not sure what Luther and Calvin thought. And in all reality it doesn't matter much. If they were wrong they were wrong. Just because they were pioneers in the faith didn't mean they had everything right.

2nd) Jesus did indeed call Himself the Vine and the Door, and we know those are just metaphors used to describe His relationship with us in regards to salvation. This doesn't help your stance any because it's already been established that at times He speaks in parables, and at times He is being literal.

If we don't take Genesis literal, where do we stop? Were the three Hebrew boys really thrown into a fire and preserved by God. Did Nebuchadnezzar really have a dream that was explained by Daniel? Did Christ really come from Heaven and was He really born of a virgin?

The bible explains itself. When the story being told is a parable, it is explained as such. When the language is metaphoric it is explained as such. When it is literal it is plainly said. Tell me. For every matter in the bible that science can't explain, should we simply take it symbolically?


My problem with evolution is not its age. It's that it is a theory that gets rid of God. It removes His hand from creation. What's sad is that we have christians trying to justify it.
 
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Assyrian

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What opinion? I'm not going off of any opinion when it comes to my understanding of the bible. I'd hope no one did that. I look to the Spirit to guide me in my understanding. I pray in earnest to be shown the truth in all matters.
You assume Christians in the past only gave what they thought the bible said, whereas your views are looking at what the bible does say. Of course believers through the ages have tried to understand what the bible does say, and prayed for wisdom to understand it. But the bible is the eternal and almighty God communicating with man, his thoughts are far above ours and his ways high above our too. We can come to some understanding of what God is saying, but even Paul said he was only seeing through a glass darkly. All our understanding of what God is saying to us in his word, even in our deepest understanding, is still only a frail limited human opinion. And better people than us have got it wrong in the past. Luther and Calvin and all the church fathers believed the bible taught geocentrism.

1st) I'm not sure what Luther and Calvin thought. And in all reality it doesn't matter much. If they were wrong they were wrong. Just because they were pioneers in the faith didn't mean they had everything right.
Of course. But if men of God like these can make such a basic mistake, we need to realise we are not immune. Of course it was science, the study of God's universe, that showed us Luther and Calvin got it wrong, so it is not very wise for Creationists to think their interpretation means the science has to be wrong. It wasn't in the past.

You just have to figure out which is which. Of course if you mistake a figurative passage for literal, then you are going to get the interpretation wrong. Some early church writer took 'the ends of the earth wrong' and other passages literally and thought the bible teaches a flat earth. Other as we have seen took the geocentric passages literally, but this is missing the point God is teaching in these passages. And you have people who take the creation days literally. But if these are not meant literally, then young earth creationism is as much a mistaken interpretation as flat earth or geocentrism were in the past.

This is the classic slippery slope argument, but it doesn't work because we are already on the slope. You already know there are scriptures that are figurative, you know Jesus wasn't literally a vine, but it doesn't make you question the virgin birth does it? In fact this was one of the issues the Catholic Church had with Galileo, because if you can't the rely on the bible says about geocentrism how can you trust what it says about the virgin birth.

The bible explains itself. When the story being told is a parable, it is explained as such. When the language is metaphoric it is explained as such. When it is literal it is plainly said.
Those are simply the metaphor and parables that are easy to spot, but Jesus would not have causes nearly so much confusion if he always said when he was going to use a metaphor or give a parable. But he didn't. And the OT is full of metaphors and parables that are given straight without the slightest hint. Exodus 19:4 You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself.

Tell me. For every matter in the bible that science can't explain, should we simply take it symbolically?
There is a differnce between what science cannot explain and what it says isn't true. The bible can't explain the resurrection, but I would not expect it to. On the other hand science tells us the earth isn't flat, it is an oblate spheroid, and the earth isn't fixed in place and sitting on pillars, nor does the sun go round the earth. We know the flat earth and geocentric interpretations are wrong, not because science cannot explain them but because science shows us they are wrong, just like it tells us the earth is billions of years old, not 6000 year old.

My problem with evolution is not its age. It's that it is a theory that gets rid of God. It removes His hand from creation. What's sad is that we have christians trying to justify it.
The church has always known that God operate both through the supernatural miracles and through the ordinary working of the natural world. Does understanding about agriculture and cookery remove God from providing our daily bread? Christians still thank pray for God's provision and thank him for their food. I believe God formed my in my mother's womb, I love Psalm 139 I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Yet I see no contradiction between that and the lessons I learned about human reproduction in biology class.
 
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