Seeking "Niceness"

Montalban · Sep 14, 2005

Kris_J said:
Do you have a "Montalban's guarantee of perfect delivery of the Orthodox message or may Montalban be condemned to Hell"?
Is there a stamp on the Orthodox doctrine that they guarantee to be perfectly correct in delivering God's message or may God condemn them to hell?

a) what part of 'we don't second guess God with regards to who goes to hell' didn't you get?
b) Jesus said the church would not fail. I take that as 100% guarantee.

Montalban · Sep 14, 2005

seebs said:
Ahh, yes. There is always the question of the inherent threat Christianity poses to established institutions.

You didn't answer the question.

Ray-Ray · Sep 14, 2005

Thanks Montalban for answering my question. You and Americangirl make perfect sense. Christianity doesnt seem to be for me. I grew up in a Christian household and it wasnt a nice experience either. I thought perhaps it was a denominational issue, I didnt want to tar the whole of Christianity with the same brush.

Although other Christians like GodsWordisTrue, Seebs, Starlight, etc seem to make a good case for Christianity being about love and niceness there is also the Truth is Truth and Im not going to misrepresent His message if it upsets other people element in Christianity which goes against my feelings of respecting other peoples religious beliefs and generally getting along with people even if I think they are wrong, so Ill cross Christianity off the list as recommended.

I cant thank you all enough for your suggestions. Im still in research mode and may post at a later date to ask about any specifics that has grabbed my attention.

Thanks again.

MrsDanvers · Sep 14, 2005

They way i see it is. If you want a nice religion then be nice yourself! you get out of religion what you put into it.

There are horrible people in every faith,but i bet there are more nice people than nasty, ony the nasty people shout louder.

If you want to represent your faith in a good light then lead by example.

Mrs Danvers

9Harmony · Sep 14, 2005

MrsDanvers said:
They way i see it is. If you want a nice religion then be nice yourself! you get out of religion what you put into it.

There are horrible people in every faith,but i bet there are more nice people than nasty, ony the nasty people shout louder.

If you want to represent your faith in a good light then lead by example.

Mrs Danvers

Well said!

Cassiopeia · Sep 15, 2005

GodsWordisTrue said:
I don't know what Montalban meant about not being nice. But if you aren't nice, how can you claim to be a Christian?

Matthew 5
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Which version of "nice" do you believe in?

Cassiopeia · Sep 15, 2005

Montalban said:
a) what part of 'we don't second guess God with regards to who goes to hell' didn't you get?
b) Jesus said the church would not fail. I take that as 100% guarantee.

AHHH...the guarantee. Which church won't fail Montalban? Which one? There are so many divisions of Christian sects now that one doesn't know where to turn for the true version.

Kris_J · Sep 15, 2005

Montalban said:
a) what part of 'we don't second guess God with regards to who goes to hell' didn't you get?
b) Jesus said the church would not fail. I take that as 100% guarantee.

Does the Church say it would not fail? The Catholic Church wont guarantee the devout Catholic's salvation.

Montalban · Sep 15, 2005

Ray-Ray said:
Thanks Montalban for answering my question. You and Americangirl make perfect sense. Christianity doesn’t seem to be for me. I grew up in a Christian household and it wasn’t a nice experience either. I thought perhaps it was a denominational issue, I didn’t want to tar the whole of Christianity with the same brush.

Although other Christians like GodsWordisTrue, Seebs, Starlight, etc seem to make a good case for Christianity being about love and “niceness” there is also the “Truth is Truth” and “Im not going to misrepresent His message if it upsets other people” element in Christianity which goes against my feelings of respecting other people’s religious beliefs and generally getting along with people even if I think they are wrong, so I’ll cross Christianity off the list as recommended.

I cant thank you all enough for your suggestions. Im still in research mode and may post at a later date to ask about any specifics that has grabbed my attention.

Thanks again.

No problemo. I am amazed that people voice such hollow things as 'respect' without really giving much thought to it.

How do you, for instance, respect a religious belief that believes in ritual genital mutilation?

Or, others once believed in ceremonial killings.

I suppose people could sit idly by while innocent people were killed/mutilated and claim that they don't want to appear to be imposing their ideas on others, in an effort to be 'nice'.

Montalban · Sep 15, 2005

Casiopeia said:
AHHH...the guarantee.

Sorry to hear that you doubt Jesus.

Casiopeia said:
Which church won't fail Montalban? Which one? There are so many divisions of Christian sects now that one doesn't know where to turn for the true version.

Orthodoxy retains the teachings of Christ.

The divisions in Christianity does not mean that Orthodox Christianity has failed.

Montalban · Sep 15, 2005

Kris_J said:
Does the Church say it would not fail? The Catholic Church wont guarantee the devout Catholic's salvation.

Jesus said it, by word and deed. As to 'the Catholic Church' I've no idea what you're on about here, nor what relevence it has to either of us (both non-Catholics). Please explain.

Ray-Ray · Sep 15, 2005

Montalban said:
No problemo. I am amazed that people voice such hollow things as 'respect' without really giving much thought to it.

How do you, for instance, respect a religious belief that believes in ritual genital mutilation?

Or, others once believed in ceremonial killings.

I suppose people could sit idly by while innocent people were killed/mutilated and claim that they don't want to appear to be imposing their ideas on others, in an effort to be 'nice'.

Personally I dont think respect is hollow. The world would be a better place if more people were respectful in my opinion. There are respectful ways of trying to outlaw genital mutilation or ceremonial killings for example, one of those ways is through education rather than say, dropping a bomb of them. You can disagree with a practice and still be respectful. You can disagree with a point of view and still be respectful but then this is just my point of view and Im not forcing anyone to think or believe as I do. Thanks again for your thoughts.

Arthra · Sep 15, 2005

I like your approach Ray-Ray!

I find that showing respect even if I feel the other person is really mistaken is always a good policy and there are usually areas you'll find where you can solidly agree with the other person so it opens up communication lines that would otherwise not be there.

- Art

Montalban · Sep 15, 2005

Ray-Ray said:
Personally I dont think respect is hollow. The world would be a better place if more people were respectful in my opinion. There are respectful ways of trying to outlaw genital mutilation or ceremonial killings for example, one of those ways is through education rather than say, dropping a bomb of them. You can disagree with a practice and still be respectful. You can disagree with a point of view and still be respectful but then this is just my point of view and Im not forcing anyone to think or believe as I do. Thanks again for your thoughts.

I agree that one can disagree and still be respectful. I respect Judaism, but don't think it's right. Even within Christianity, I don't believe in Catholicism, but respect it. So no one is advocated dropping a bomb. However some things require more immediate action.

Sure we can advocate that they all be educated to think like us (why else are you proposing 'education').

And while we're encouarging them to get educated, we can hope that this somehow assuages guilt over whats actually happening at the moment.

Thus when the Brits arrived in India and discovered the practice of suttee, they acted to stem the ritual murder of widows right away. But I'm sure some people would condemn this, and allow the widows to have been killed, and aim for a severe leaflet-campaign and 'awareness raising' session

Note: I am not suggesting that suttee was only in India.

Cassiopeia · Sep 15, 2005

Montalban said:
Sorry to hear that you doubt Jesus.

AHAHAHA...*wait, that wasn't funny but rather insulting* you are lucky I have a sense of humour Montalban. I find it amazing that you assume my comment has to do with Jesus. Jesus can NOT guarantee that people will not fail. Churches on this earth are established by MAN not Jesus. Kindly sir, refrain from such insults in the future.

montalban said:
Orthodoxy retains the teachings of Christ.

The divisions in Christianity does not mean that Orthodox Christianity has failed.

I would be interested in learning more about Orthodoxy to see if I agree with you. Please...can you give me a place to begin reading up on it?

Thanks

RufustheRed · Sep 16, 2005

GodsWordisTrue said:
Ephesians 4:32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Casiopeia said:
oh yeah...good one GWIT

I agree. That is a beautiful verse. One that should help us shape our image to those around us. You are agreeing, aren't you? Surely, you aren't baiting your fish hook. I couldn't really tell.

Sven

Ray-Ray · Sep 16, 2005

Arthra said:
I like your approach Ray-Ray!

I find that showing respect even if I feel the other person is really mistaken is always a good policy and there are usually areas you'll find where you can solidly agree with the other person so it opens up communication lines that would otherwise not be there.

- Art

Thanks Art

Obviously I totally agree

Ray-Ray · Sep 16, 2005

Montalban said:
I agree that one can disagree and still be respectful. I respect Judaism, but don't think it's right. Even within Christianity, I don't believe in Catholicism, but respect it. So no one is advocated dropping a bomb. However some things require more immediate action.

Sure we can advocate that they all be educated to think like us (why else are you proposing 'education').

And while we're encouarging them to get educated, we can hope that this somehow assuages guilt over whats actually happening at the moment.

Thus when the Brits arrived in India and discovered the practice of suttee, they acted to stem the ritual murder of widows right away. But I'm sure some people would condemn this, and allow the widows to have been killed, and aim for a severe leaflet-campaign and 'awareness raising' session

Note: I am not suggesting that suttee was only in India.

Very good example Montalban but respectfulness can be applied immediately too. With your British example in India, Britain shouldnt have taken over the country in the first place. Tad rude and disrespectful dont you think? Nevertheless they did and the British banned Suttee in 1829 but the practice still continued throughout the century despite the ban. Education and leaflet campaigning *thats funny* would have been advisable combined with legal measures. Consulting the people that actually lived in the country and that the ban affected would have been a good start too. How is anyone supposed to know something is wrong or unadvisable, especially if it is part of their culture and have known it as the norm, if they are not educated about it? Not educated to think like us but shown the harm that it does to others.

Drinking and driving was banned in this country but people still did it. Education, constant TV advertising and leaflet campaigning that depicted the harm that drinking and driving does was the tactic that made it socially unacceptable and death rates lower, not the ban itself. Persuasion is the key not the hammer. Saddam Hussein curbed unrest between Shiites and Sunnis but I wouldnt really recommend his methods either. You can rule with an iron fist with no compassion, stating that your way is the only way, but where will that lead you in the end? Most likely your hole will be betrayed by the people closest to you and be left with a bunch of unhappy people in your wake.

I am not for barbaric practices, unruly behaviour, being wicked to one another, or causing pain to others, thats one of the reasons I asked for nice religious philosophies. I am for laws and curbing bad behaviour but doing so respectfully, with understanding for an issue and without bulldozing. Respect and law /order doesnt have to be completely alien to each other, neither should respect and religious understanding. Religious/cultural understanding or respect or niceness or whatever you want to call it would curb 90% of the wars occurring in the world at the moment. Surely that wouldnt be a bad thing?

I understand we will never agree on this issue but its fun chatting to you. Lets just be grateful that neither of us are in a position of power over people, Im sure wed both be horrified at that prospect.

Electra · Sep 16, 2005

kit said:
In reality no religion really lives up to it's ideals. I suppose they wouldn't be ideals then.

I agree.

And Buddhism is my chosen religion because of its ''inceness'' However, its personal, for you Buddhism might not deliver what you are looking for. Read up on it and then decide. Its an option.

Cassiopeia · Sep 16, 2005

Sven1967 said:
I agree. That is a beautiful verse. One that should help us shape our image to those around us. You are agreeing, aren't you? Surely, you aren't baiting your fish hook. I couldn't really tell.

Sven

I am extremely frustrated Sven because I would like to know what one considers nice. People here *no one being mentioned here..general observation as of late* have the idea that being loving and nice includes telling the "truth" to be loving. Only the manner in which the "truth" or "love" or "niceness" is being put forth is actually REALLY offensive.

P.S oh and one man's truth is another man's lie...so to speak against someone in a manner that is offensive but claim they are not responsible for the truth hurting is really just a dodge in my opinion. It is often argued here that the truth may not be nice but it will save one's soul but if that "truth" is put in such a way that the person will not receive it than it has benefited none to have spoken it.

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