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Yesterday at 11:00 AM SoccerAaron said this in Post #21
Yeah.
I hate the phrase "Hate the sin, love the sinner".
Someone I know did a whole article on the issue. I might post it sometime.
Maybe this will help:
Strong's Entry 2889
When you read this pay special attention to "Outline of Biblical Usage" #8b:Ê of believers only, John 1,29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47; 1 Cor 4:9; 2 Cor 5:19
So, According to Strongs Concordance the accepted use of the word "kosmos" in verses 3:16,17 means this:
John 3:16,17
For God so lovedÊbelievers onlyÊthat He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.Ê For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
God does not love all people.Ê There are specific passages, not to mention the total illogic of believing that God loves the people in hell who go there because they're His enemy, that speak specifically of God HATING certain people.
God bless
Yeah.
I hate the phrase "Hate the sin, love the sinner".
Someone I know did a whole article on the issue. I might post it sometime.
Strange how God wld send his Son to die for sinners when he hates them.
Today at 12:17 AM Andrew said this in Post #24
Romans 5:18 Then as one manÕs trespass led to condemnation for ALL men, so one manÕs act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for ALL men.
The 2 "ALL"s here are the same word.
So if limited atonement is true (ie ALL in the 2nd instance does not mean 'all' but 'some'), then limited condemnation must be true also (ie ALL in the 1st instance does not mean 'all' but 'some').
I take it then that hyper calvinists also believe that not all men have sinned.
more on the problems of Hyper Calvinism here:
http://www.biblehelp.org/sumsel.htm
http://www.biblehelp.org/whatsel.htm
Today at 12:17 AM Andrew said this in Post #24
Romans 5:18 Then as one manÕs trespass led to condemnation for ALL men, so one manÕs act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for ALL men.
The 2 "ALL"s here are the same word.
IÊhope you don't think I'mÊtwisting this to fit my purposes but it is completely logical to interpret that passage as the first "pas," i.e., "condemnation for everyÊperson" and the second "pas" as "life for all of His elect."
Today at 09:20 PM Andrew said this in Post #28 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=707302#post707302)
isnt that twisting scripture? The verse says condemnation FOR ALL MEN and justification FOR ALL MEN.
You then simply interpret "for all men" as "for every person" in the first instance but then conveniently switch to "for all of His elect" in the second instance of "for all men".
Its the same phrase, same words but you just switch them around to fit your point.
all I'm saying is be consistent in your interpretation of "for all men". If you insist that the 2nd "all" means a special grp, then the 1st all must be a special grp also.
What abt the verse which says Jesus Christ came to save sinners?
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Are you also going to interpret "sinners" here as "elect sinners"?
If every human is a sinner, as the majority of Christians believe, it wld mean Jesus came to die for all men. But this goes against your doctrine that Christ died only for the elect. so it wld mean you'd have to twist the meaning of sinners to "elect sinners only".
Okay, let's try again. You believe that all men were condemned in the Fall, and I agree. You, however, also believe that all men were "justified" by the sacrifice of Christ, right?.......
Have "all people" been "declared by God to be free from guilt and acceptable to Him?" The only way that the second "pas" can mean "all people" is if all people have been "declared by God to be free from guilt and acceptable to Him." If that is not the case then the second "pas" cannot be referring to "all people."
Well it seems to me that you have interpreted "sinners" to mean "all sinners"
it would appear that you believe Christ Jesus came to accomplish the salvation of "all sinners" and He failed.
One must still believe and receive.
that's why its called the free gift.
If you believe all men are sinners as the Bible says, then if the Bible says Jesus came to save sinners, then it wld mean that he died for all. It doesnt get any simpler than that and if you cant eve see this, then there is no point going on. And I've already given you clear-cut scriptures.
that's the problem with hyper-cal.
He died for all, that all might be saved.
that's why its called a free-gift -- implying that one must still receive it by faith.
so we believe that Jesus accomplished what he set out to do ie. die on the cross as perfect man for the sins of the world. and we know he succeeded becos God raised him from the dead.
and here's one more thing you might one to consider:
18 So, then, as through one offence to all men it is to condemnation, so also through one declaration of ÔRighteousÕ it is to all men to justification of life;
the phrase "so also" means "in the same way". So how can the 2nd clause be "in the same way" as the first if one means "all" while the other means "some".
Again, it shows the lack of consistency in your interpretation.
this will be my final post here.
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