"Scripture, huh, yeah. What is it good for?"

Albion · Dec 22, 2014

seven2014 said:
I think they mean using scripture to answer any and all questions put to them.

I remember asking to be shown the holy trinity in the bible. I was shown 3 to 6 passages that still didn't show it.

I appreciate that point (which is why I said that it depended upon the poster and the question). While I can see answering most questions with a Bible verse, because that is the source of our religious information, I wouldn't do that if they are challenging the idea of believing the Bible over someone's scientific theory or etc. Yet it is true that many Christians would do that anyway.

juvenissun · Dec 22, 2014

seven2014 said:
All people ask foolish question, this is not specific to one group.

I think it's foolish to believe in a system constructed by man just to control you.

They are much much wiser than YOU are.

Want a proof? This one may not come from the Bible.

keith99 · Dec 22, 2014

ViaCrucis said:
I've only found quoting Scripture to non-Christians helpful when it is relevant to the conversation, not as a method of convincing the other party (since that'd be dumb). For example, if someone is curious how I interpret a certain passage of the Bible, I'll offer the passage and attempt my best to give it an exegetical treatment. Or, as another example, if the topic is on a certain point of theology I'll likely provide biblical texts as well as various theological commentary as I'm familiar with it to the discussion (e.g. the Creeds, the Lutheran Confessions, the sayings of the Church Fathers, etc).

But quoting the Bible to "win the argument" with someone who does not regard Christian Scripture as any sort of authority has always seemed dumb.

I'm certainly not impressed if a Muslim quotes the Qu'ran at me to convince me of the truths of Islam, so how would my quoting the Bible impress anyone or convince anyone of the truths of Christianity? Answer: It won't and it doesn't.

So was I the best person to answer the question? Probably not.

-CryptoLutheran

Quoting Scripture to win an argument can only lose the argument, excepting of course when the argument is about what Scripture says.

If one person accepts Scripture as definitive and the other does not showing that Scripture clearly teaches one thing is only a winning argument for the one who does not accept it as authoritative and that because his opponent does accept scripture as authoratitive. But if the Christian seems to have a clear win it all falls topieces as his argument is built on shifting sand and his opponent only needs to point out that he does not accept Scripture as an authoritative source.

You can only win a debate when yuo start from points your opposition accepts as true.

2PhiloVoid · Dec 22, 2014

Non sequitur said:
Not sure if this is the "right" area...

I'm curious as to the reason why Christians quote verses in response to questions asked by non-Christians?

I understand that the weight of the verse, to them, but for the purposes of debate/argument/conversation with someone who doesn't give it any weight... both parties already know this... why does this constantly happen?

Philosophically speaking, verse-responses don't offer much to the conversation.

(I'd like to ask that responses don't include, "But non-Christians do the same by...", as that doesn't answer the question,)

Scripture is good for supplementing our understanding of reality...for those who care enough to know better.

WoundedDeep · Dec 22, 2014

Non sequitur said:
Not sure if this is the "right" area...

I'm curious as to the reason why Christians quote verses in response to questions asked by non-Christians?

I understand that the weight of the verse, to them, but for the purposes of debate/argument/conversation with someone who doesn't give it any weight... both parties already know this... why does this constantly happen?

Philosophically speaking, verse-responses don't offer much to the conversation.

(I'd like to ask that responses don't include, "But non-Christians do the same by...", as that doesn't answer the question,)

I appeal to reasoning, logic and common sense in almost all my arguments. I will and do quote Scriptures to show that the reality around them are long predicted in ancient texts written by the faithful Christians or those who worship the God of the Bible.

seven2014 · Dec 22, 2014

Albion said:
I appreciate that point (which is why I said that it depended upon the poster and the question). While I can see answering most questions with a Bible verse, because that is the source of our religious information, I wouldn't do that if they are challenging the idea of believing the Bible over someone's scientific theory or etc. Yet it is true that many Christians would do that anyway.

Thank you for this excellent response.

IMO, Christians read, and quote scriptures in tiny, fragments all the time. And by doing so, they alter the meaning without even realizing it.

Luke 11:19-Ask, and it will be given to you; is a good example of this. I've seen too many preachers treat this bit of scripture as an ironclad promise. Whatever you ask for, money, cars, spouse, etc. god will give it to you.

But I know Luke 11:9 is part of a larger narrative in which Jesus has already told us what to ask for.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke 11&version=KJV

Smidlee · Dec 22, 2014

seven2014 said:
But I know Luke 11:9 is part of a larger narrative in which Jesus has already told us what to ask for.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke 11&version=KJV

I think you meant Luke 11:1-13 goes with it.

11 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.

2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth...

Jesus obvious not saying God becomes someone's genie.

seven2014 said:
Luke 11:19-Ask, and it will be given to you; is a good example of this. I've seen too many preachers treat this bit of scripture as an ironclad promise. Whatever you ask for, money, cars, spouse, etc. god will give it to you.

TV preachers? You are right that Luke 11: 1-13 is dealing with prayer and taking verse 9 out of context makes God sound like a genie.

seven2014 · Dec 22, 2014

juvenissun said:
They are much much wiser than YOU are.

There is no doubt that there are people a lot wiser than me, I'm ignorant of many things.

The lips of wisdom are closed, except to the ears of Understanding.The Kybalion.

Cearbhall · Dec 23, 2014

Non sequitur said:
I'm curious as to the reason why Christians quote verses in response to questions asked by non-Christians?

I understand that the weight of the verse, to them, but for the purposes of debate/argument/conversation with someone who doesn't give it any weight... both parties already know this... why does this constantly happen?

Either they haven't done any critical thinking and don't have anything else to say, or they simply think that they couldn't possibly say it better than God did. I can't attest to this myself because this practice, sometimes called "Bible-clutching," is not very common in Catholicism, which is what I was raised in.

ViaCrucis · Dec 23, 2014

seven2014 said:
Thank you for this excellent response.

IMO, Christians read, and quote scriptures in tiny, fragments all the time. And by doing so, they alter the meaning without even realizing it.

One problem I've noted over the years is that there are very different ways people attempt to handle the Bible. For some of us there must be an objective meaning that the original author(s) of any given text were attempting to communicate, and it is the job of the would-be exegete to properly engage the text in a way that takes as much as possible into consideration and then pull from the text a conclusion. Another example: There seems to be those who think the Bible is kind of like a Magic 8 Ball, the text means whatever it needs to mean when I need it to mean something.

This last way of handling Scripture seems to be the sort of thing I usually see whenever I make the mistake of pausing for a moment on some televangelist on television. They sure seem to be quoting a lot from the Bible, a litany of proof texts all seemingly neatly saying what they want to say--without any real objective investigation into what the texts actually say. Because in reality what the texts actually say, as the authors of those texts intended, is irrelevant; because for people who think this way the original authors and their intended meaning don't matter, the text is always a "fresh word" from God to say what I need it to say now.

Your example below isn't even a particularly egregious example of this, there are far, far worse.

Luke 11:19-Ask, and it will be given to you; is a good example of this. I've seen too many preachers treat this bit of scripture as an ironclad promise. Whatever you ask for, money, cars, spouse, etc. god will give it to you.

But I know Luke 11:9 is part of a larger narrative in which Jesus has already told us what to ask for.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke 11&version=KJV

-CryptoLutheran

Davian · Dec 23, 2014

Non sequitur said:
Not sure if this is the "right" area...

I'm curious as to the reason why Christians quote verses in response to questions asked by non-Christians?

I understand that the weight of the verse, to them, but for the purposes of debate/argument/conversation with someone who doesn't give it any weight... both parties already know this... why does this constantly happen?

Philosophically speaking, verse-responses don't offer much to the conversation.

(I'd like to ask that responses don't include, "But non-Christians do the same by...", as that doesn't answer the question,)

It was explained to me that the intent is that the believer should use the "word of God" as/like a "sword" against the unbeliever (Hebrews 4:12?). I understand that the bible somewhere explains that the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of this method is not dependant on the believer or their responsibility. ("just let the bible do its work").

In practice, this would seem to be the intellectual equivalent of a cardboard sword wrapped in aluminum foil.

I have recently likened this to the "invisible fence" technology used by dog owners to keep their dogs from straying from their property. There is a "Mother Goose and Grimm" cartoon where the owner has installed an "invisible fence", and the owner's dog, with new electronic collar, is trying to explain to the other dogs in the neighbourhood the dangers of crossing the line demarcated with the little flags. He even tries to jump across the line, to show them how it works, not realizing that the "fence" doesn't work on those that do not wear the collar.

RDKirk · Dec 23, 2014

Smidlee said:
I think you meant Luke 11:1-13 goes with it.

Jesus obvious not saying God becomes someone's genie.

TV preachers? You are right that Luke 11: 1-13 is dealing with prayer and taking verse 9 out of context makes God sound like a genie.

Luke 11 blends into Luke 12, which becomes Christ's overall manifesto for handling resources in the Body of Christ. Paul details this in 2 Corinthians 8, and Acts 2/4 shows it in operation.

Cearbhall · Dec 23, 2014

Davian said:
It was explained to me that the intent is that the believer should use the "word of God" as/like a "sword" against the unbeliever (Hebrews 4:12?). I understand that the bible somewhere explains that the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of this method is not dependant on the believer or their responsibility. ("just let the bible do its work").

This seems incredibly meta.

seven2014 · Dec 23, 2014

Smidlee said:
I think you meant Luke 11:1-13 goes with it.

Jesus obvious not saying God becomes someone's genie.

TV preachers? You are right that Luke 11: 1-13 is dealing with prayer and taking verse 9 out of context makes God sound like a genie.

Thank you for the correction, you are right. I meant to say that one verse spoken out of context takes on a different meaning.

Jeremy E Walker · Dec 23, 2014

Non sequitur said:
Not sure if this is the "right" area...

I'm curious as to the reason why Christians quote verses in response to questions asked by non-Christians?

I understand that the weight of the verse, to them, but for the purposes of debate/argument/conversation with someone who doesn't give it any weight... both parties already know this... why does this constantly happen?

Philosophically speaking, verse-responses don't offer much to the conversation.

(I'd like to ask that responses don't include, "But non-Christians do the same by...", as that doesn't answer the question,)

One of the reasons why I quote scripture when talking with non-Christians is because the Old and New Testaments are accurate and reliable historical documents. I often use it like I would any other history book.

Davian · Dec 23, 2014

Cearbhall said:
It was explained to me that the intent is that the believer should use the "word of God" as/like a "sword" against the unbeliever (Hebrews 4:12?). I understand that the bible somewhere explains that the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of this method is not dependant on the believer or their responsibility. ("just let the bible do its work").

Click to expand...

This seems incredibly meta.

It seems to me kinda 'Halloween', like when the kid dressed as the pirate waves the rubber sword in your direction.

It's very wobbly.

WindStaff · Dec 23, 2014

Non sequitur said:
I'm curious as to the reason why Christians quote verses in response to questions asked by non-Christians?

The only time I put a verse to an atheist is if they are inquiring on why I believe something, or where my inspiration is tapped from. And of course, only if there's purpose in it, I don't just throw random stuff at atheists expecting them to know it's context and whatnot.

But the Bible has always been called the 'book of answers', some of them even have passage references in the back for advice on a myriad of things. Christians tend to get absorbed into the Bible, and forget sometimes that others aren't versed in it.

Davian · Dec 23, 2014

Jeremy E Walker said:
One of the reasons why I quote scripture when talking with non-Christians is because the Old and New Testaments are accurate and reliable historical documents.
...

Could you convince the Smithsonian of that?

http://www.csnradio.com/tema/links/SmithsonianLetter.pdf

It must be remembered that the Bible is primarily a book of religion, a guide to faith. It was not a book of history, poetry, economics, or science. It contains all sorts of literary genre, which are used to teach about the relationship between God and mankind.

In the best analysis, the Bible is a religious book, not an historical document.

Cearbhall · Dec 23, 2014

Jeremy E Walker said:
One of the reasons why I quote scripture when talking with non-Christians is because the Old and New Testaments are accurate and reliable historical documents. I often use it like I would any other history book.

Someone said this to me at the beginning of college. I went to Catholic school all my life, so it was the first time I had actually heard anyone say this. It blew my mind.

"Scripture, huh, yeah. What is it good for?"

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