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Scripture and origins ~ [open] thread for all. Bring snacks as we're running low...

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gluadys

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Robert Jastrow agrees with me on the tie to Big Bang, or rather, that connection is actually his idea, not mine. He's the physicist.

But when he interprets the Big Bang metaphysically, he is no longer speaking as a physicist but as a philosopher. While other physicists will agree with his physics (given supportive evidence), they may have different philosophies that lead to different metaphysical conclusions.

Just because a person works in science doesn't mean everything they say has scientific backing.

How many times does the BIble have to be more right for a longer period of time than science for it to have credibility?

Does the bible have to agree with modern science to be credible?

How about we go right to the nub of scriptural credibility. Is Daniel also about beauty of expression primarily, or did it predict events that have and will come true?

Daniel, like most apocalyptic writing, is about being faithful in times of persecution. Most of the events "predicted" in Daniel were occurring at the time it was written in the 2nd century BCE. The events from the life of Daniel and his companions were selected because they were types of the persecution faced by Jews refusing the Hellenizing agenda of the Seleucid monarchs, especially Antiochus Epiphanes: forced to each non-kosher food, to worship images and to pray to Greek deities, not to Yahweh. The anonymous author is encouraging the people to remain faithful in trust that God will protect them as he protected Daniel and his companions.

He describes the recent past and current political scene as if it had been predicted centuries earlier. It is a way of affirming his faith, and encouraging others to believe, that God is in control of events and will soon overcome the oppressor.
 
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HypnoToad

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Yes, they are "different". Earth is the whole thing, and waters and the deep and land are all components.
 
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busterdog

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busterdog

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THis may be a derail. Skip it if bored. This is like the Joe Montana Super Bowl of literary criticism, by Eric Auerbach.

Not only is the enormous and perhaps unparalleled sophistication of Genesis described, buy Auerbach, as major critic confirms for anyone who wants to hear it, that Genesis was intended to be taken literally. Its sophistication, granted, is not of the heroic epic type. Its goal are entirely distinct.

He does not deal with Gen. 1.1, but you can see how he breaks down the context and terms in which the story is framed to nail its intent and the voice behind it. It has similarities to Gen. 1, but obviously its a different story.

http://www.westmont.edu/~fisk/Articles/OdysseusScar.html



Fr
 
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busterdog

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...

You are witnessing genius. What a writer!
 
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busterdog

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artybloke

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How many times does the BIble have to be more right for a longer period of time than science for it to have credibility?

When did I say it wasn't "credible? But as usual you've swallowed the whole rationalist pill that somehow says that something that is factual is "more true" than something that is fictional.

How about we go right to the nub of scriptural credibility. Is Daniel also about beauty of expression primarily, or did it predict events that have and will come true?

The Book of Daniel was written in the 2nd century BC and refers to events that took place then. "Beauty of expression" - what does that mean exactly? I'm sure that the poet who wrote it was as interested in aesthetics as most poets are; but he was also writing a book to support those Jews under persecution during the Greek occupation of their country.

There is no part of the Bible that predicts the future into the far distance; otherwise certain writers were writing stuff that was nonsense at the time of writing. They were always writing the things that meant something to the first readers, to whom (not us) the writing was directed.

That future readers later applied the scriptures to things that happened later, or that dispensationalists use the Bible as a kind of Old Moore's Almanack of prediction (thus making the Bible no more relevant than a horoscope) is nothing to do with what the original writers intended, or the original readers understood by it. The bible is not a book of magic.
 
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gluadys

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Interesting that Jeremiah, a century previous to your 2nd century BC Daniel, references Daniel's "future" writing in his own book. And you said it's not magic.
 
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busterdog

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Interesting that Jeremiah, a century previous to your 2nd century BC Daniel, references Daniel's "future" writing in his own book. And you said it's not magic.

Plus, Jesus HImself said Daniel was a prophet.

The Septuagint translation included Daniel. I am sure these scholars did not succumb to a fake. The integrity of the Jewish scribes has been attested to time and again. The Dead Sea scrolls confirmed this integrity when the Jews had all the time in the world to edit their texts to improve their political point. The argument about Daniel essentially derives from the belief that there are no such things as prophets, so there has to be another explanation.

Daniel also predicted the arrival of Jesus to the day on Palm Sunday from the order to rebuild the wall recorded in Ezra, I think. Even if Daniel was off (which he wasn't), we are talking about an error of maybe 660-1000 days out of nearly 173,880 days. That is at least statistically significant. http://endtimepilgrim.org/70wks2.htm

No less than Isaac Newton affirmed the accuracy of Daniel's prophecy by similar means. http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds/meridian/2004/daniel.html

Sometimes you have such a different view of reality, that it makes an exchange of ideas becomes very difficult. This probably not very productive at this point.

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
 
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shernren

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Because they hadn't been separated from each other yet.
But if they hadn't been separated, then it wouldn't make sense for the Spirit to be hovering over the waters, for the waters didn't exist as things-in-themselves yet at that point as you say.
 
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gluadys

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Plus, Jesus HImself said Daniel was a prophet.

The Septuagint translation included Daniel.

In the Hebrew division of the OT, Daniel is not included among the prophets, but among the Writings. His work dates from after the time the rabbis assigned to the Prophets. I am sure Jesus was aware of this.


And this speaks well for the rabbinic tradition. However, the rabbinic tradition did not come to the fore until the time of the Babylonian exile and does not necessarily apply to copies made prior to the exile.

The argument about Daniel essentially derives from the belief that there are no such things as prophets, so there has to be another explanation.

Actually, it comes from linguistics. The Hebrew and Aramaic of the Book of Daniel date from the 2nd century BCE (indeed the presence of both languages shows it comes from a time when the common tongue of the Jewish people was transiting from Hebrew to Aramaic). Languages change over time and the style, vocabulary, spelling, etc. of a text are reliable clues to dating the time of writing. A reader of English, for example, could readily distinguish a text in Victorian English from a text in Elizabethan English. Experts in Hebrew linguistics can do the same for biblical Hebrew.


It is easy to manipulate numbers to get the answer you are looking for. I saw all too much of that among Jehovah's Witnesses, though they are far from the only onces to engage in this sort of analysis of "prophecy". The commentary on Anderson's figures shows that they can be understood differently. Among other things it mentions that

Another area in which Sir Robert's investigative work turned the lights on was in nailing down the correct royal edict which had fired the starting gun for the initiation of the Seventy Weeks prophecy.​

So, if he had chosen a different edict, he would have got a different answer.

Sometimes you have such a different view of reality, that it makes an exchange of ideas becomes very difficult.

Good mental exercise though.
 
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artybloke

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Interesting that Jeremiah, a century previous to your 2nd century BC Daniel, references Daniel's "future" writing in his own book. And you said it's not magic.
Except of course Jeremiah itself (and Isaiah and several others of the prophets) is a composite work.

Also, it's highly likely that the stories about Daniel are a lot older than the actual Daniel that we have in our hands - the writer would have taken those stories and added the later apocalyptic prophecies (another reason to say that it's 2nd century - Daniel contains not prophecy so much as apocalyptic writing - a genre that didn't begin until the 2nd century.)

No less than Isaac Newton affirmed the accuracy of Daniel's prophecy by similar means.

Great scientist he may have been. He was an Arian, and susceptible to some very fruitcake ideas when it comes to the Bible, astrology and the like.

The argument about Daniel essentially derives from the belief that there are no such things as prophets, so there has to be another explanation.

Prophecy is about preaching, not prediction. It was the job of the prophet to hold a mirror up to society and to preach the consequences of Isreal/Judea's sins, not to predict the future. The Bible is not a text for divination of the future.
 
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artybloke

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Daniel most definitley wrote his book during the Babylonian exile.
You have a photo of him doing it?

How come he speaks 2nd century versions of Hebrew & Aramaic then?

youll know the truth and it should make sense folks.
You can't handle the truth.
 
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jeffweeder

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Jack nicholson, how do you do...

this part of Daniel was written in Aramaic;

Dan 2
4 Then the Chaldeans spoke to the king in Aramaic[9][The text is in Aramaic from here through 7:28]: "O king, live forever! Tell the dream to your servants, and we will declare the interpretation."

The beginning and the rest is in Hebrew--wouldnt you expect this as it was the commercial and diplomatic language of the day?
it was Written to Jews living among babylonians.

This confirms to me that it was written when it declares it was written.
You seem to think it was a forgery written much ,much later.--why would a forgery include this part of the text -in their language?

can you understand where i am coming from?
 
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artybloke

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You seem to think it was a forgery written much

Emotive 20th century anachronistic thinking. They did not have the same concept of authorship in the ancient world as we do now. For them to claim originality for their writings would probably have seemed like anathema to them. Pseudonymous writing was a very common way for writers to claim that they were part of a long tradition of thing (see 2 Ezra, the longer versions of Daniel and Esther etc - in the full (not the protestant truncation) Bible.)

--why would a forgery include this part of the text -in their language?
See above for use of emotive words - but as I say, it's a composite work. It may even contain earlier material that originates with the historical Daniel.

it was Written to Jews living among babylonians.

And? There were plenty of Jews living in Babylon in the 2nd century. Though it's more likely that the apocalyptic passages were written for those Jews who had returned from exile and were trying to resist the Greeks. It has more in common with the time of Maccabees than with the time of the exile.

Sorry about the Jack Nicholson quote. I couldn't resist...
 
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busterdog

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Prophecy is about preaching, not prediction. It was the job of the prophet to hold a mirror up to society and to preach the consequences of Isreal/Judea's sins, not to predict the future. The Bible is not a text for divination of the future.

If you came in here and told me my mother was a street worker, you can understand how I would be offended. I struggle not to get angry not just when you produce conclusions completely dismissive of basic scripture and when you also show not the slightest bit of interest in a arguments supporting scripture. I guess I am not really interested in re-running the course of scriptural deconstruction, so I am really no better when it comes to willingness to pursue the mental exercise of looking at another's viewpoint.

But, let's be clear. It is not necessarily virtuous for a Christian to provoke you to unload more of this standard academic anti-Christian fare. Further, the idea that God did not speak, predict and act they way He said He did is something that needs to be met with clarity.

There is very little common ground here and you have insulted my God.
 
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