Scripture alone regarding confessing sins.

Rdr Iakovos said:

He doesn't do it FOR you...

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Rdr Iakovos said:

Nice theory....

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Rdr Iakovos said:

It interests me that...

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First of all, I never said I don't labour....but that is my life being moved into action as motivated by the Spirit, not by me forcing myself to carry out some religious duties I think I'm supposed to.

A lot of what you've said here confirms my suspicion that you're not really understanding what a life lived by the Grace of God entails. It doesn't mean a passive life at all....far from it. The life that God has called me to is more challenging that I could ever handle, and my only option is to admit my complete inadequecy in living it, and trust in His full adequecy.

But what I DON'T do however is make pointless efforts to try and gain spiritual progress by my own actions. It's the very lie of satan (that still lingers in our "flesh") permeating from the Garden that makes Christians buy into the falsity that they aren't presentable to God as they are.....and that's where religion comes in, leading you to do things in order to put on your "best suit" for Him.

But that's not the gospel!!!! That's a lie that's just keeping you in bondage! From one brother to another....trust me!

Understanding the truth is the only thing that will set you free from this lie, but you're gonna have a hard time receiving the truth if you insist on looking at scripture with the wrong lenses on...the lenses of legalism...which is precisely what's skewing your whole perception of what the Christian experience is meant to be.

And that "fear and trembling" quote you conveniently plucked out of the Phillipians passage speaks volumes of your current perception of scripture. But that quote doesn't at all mean what you think it means. If you understand the grace message of the Bible though, and maybe just read a couple lines further, you'll see it's actually getting at quite the opposite of what you're suggesting.

It's right up there with the same old tired "If you love me you will keep my commandments", "Faith without works is dead", or "Anyone who breaks the least of these commandments..." quotes that are often taken out of context by religious Christians who haven't yet understood the grace message of the Bible and then read the verses in the wrong light.

Once you get an "Ah-ha" moment though with these verses (...and many others that end up revealing they mean quite the opposite from what they seemed) then there's just no going back.

Whatever....believe what you want I guess. Don't say I didn't try to help!

Blessings and peace to you ticker

ticker said:

First of all, I never said I don't labour....but that is my life being moved into action as motivated by the Spirit, not by me forcing myself to carry out some religious duties I think I'm suppoed to.

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Like this?
Matt25
for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

When I think of "religious duties", this comes to mind. Are we to carry these out or not?

But what I DON'T do however is make pointless efforts to try and gain spiritual progress by my own actions. It's the very lie of satan (that still lingers in our "flesh") permeating from the Garden that makes Christians buy into the falsity that they aren't presentable to God as they are.....and that's where religion comes in, leading you to do things in order to put on your "best suit" for Him.

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Is Matthew 25 a pointless effort?

Understanding the truth is the only thing that will set you free from this lie, but you're gonna have a hard time receiving the truth if you insist on looking at scripture with the wrong lenses on...the lenses of legalism...which is precisely what's skewing your whole perception of what the Christian experience is meant to be.

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Looking at this passage with your prescribed "lens" on, how do you interpret this?
James 1:27
Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

Love,
Christina

Kristos said:

So your only defense is that what I have said is unpopular?

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No.....Christianity is unpopular! And the very reason it is is because people largely believe it's something that it's not......religion.

We're seeing a revolution friend through the current information age where people from all corners of the world are slowly getting more and more access to the real gospel on a massive scale....where the church is losing its power on what they got to tell people the gospel meant every Sunday...and where religious Christianity is simply going the way of the dodo.

The thing is.....all that most of the world has ever seen in Christianity is another dead religion that has only ever delivered war and condemnation on this earth....and then just sees infighting within the faith. THAT is very much the fruit of religion, and it comes as no surprise to me when I'll see mostly religious Christians here who are the ones at each others throats....and when I see Orthodox preists on my mama's Greek tv who are also at each others throats. It really makes me quite sick.

And is it any wonder that my local Greek Orthodox church only seems to ever get filled up on the big holidays?

THAT'S Christianity????? People only coming together 'cause they have to?

Well...you know why that happens? It's because Christianity isn't anything real to them...because what they've heard of it (from Orthodoxy) doesn't give them anything that will come alive in their hearts.....something only the real gospel does.

So, right....you're really gonna convince me and others that Orthodoxy is "where it's at" with track records like that above.

The proof is in the pudding dude, and religion just doesn't deliever. It's simply incompatible with the very essence of Christianity. I mean sorry...but there's just no contest when you're living by grace.

But you're free to believe what you want as well. I did try though.

Asinner said:

Blessings and peace to you ticker

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Hey Asinner. It's a pleasure to see you too and to have you in this discussion.....but I'm kinda getting late for work posting here.

Will get back to you tonight though!

Peace

Asinner said:

When I think of "religious duties", this comes to mind. Are we to carry these out or not?

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Are we to...? As in, are we..."supposed" to? Well....loving our neighbour and brother isn't really something I'd say we're "supposed" to do. But it's definitely something we're free to do. And when you know the truth of the gospel, then it's definitely something you'll be motivated to want to do.

If you believe in the lie of faulty religion though, then you'll be distracted from the actual motivation you have to love (...the good news about having everything in Christ), and instead end up looking at it as a "duty"......and that only leads to feelings of self-condemnation, inadequecy, and guilt in the times you'll fail to accomplish said religious "duty". Hey....no wonder religious Christians feel such a need for continued repentance (...and end up believing it's a vital part of Christianity)!

Love isn't what a Christian is "supposed" to do. Love is what a Christian "does" (...and it happens when you trust Christ to do it for you). That's His job...to turn you into a "lover".

Thing is...saying you're "supposed" to love completely takes any credit off the life-transforming and all empowering capacity of God's grace through Jesus...which will actually MAKE YOU LOVE. You're not "supposed" to do anything....beause that would mean God couldn't see to it Himself that the work in you was done which would produce that which you were "supposed" to do. Get it?

He will accomplish His good will, and His will for you is your completeness in Jesus.........and you think you're supposed to do something for that to happen?


So let me just put this quite simply in case there's any doubt of what I'm getting at....

Being a religious Christian entails that you don't have faith in Christ to be EVERYTHING in your life...(something He incidentally keeps telling you He is)....and that includes creating the very desire and motivation in you to love, and live a life that will be pleasing to the Father.

THAT is grace...and it's the best news you could ever have. And if you don't trust in that....then you're gonna have a heck of a time trying to do all of the above yourself (...because you simply can't). But if you do trust in it though, then you're gonna experience something that will make you never want to look back to a life where religious "should's" and "shouldnt's" once confined and obscured the freedom you have in Christ to do such things.

If there's anything I would hazard to say a Christian is "supposed" to do (...which is actually different in this case because we're not talking about doing something for God), it would be to just trust. Rest in Jesus (like Marry would do, and Martha wouldn't) knowing that you are complete, accepted, and eternally loved....and then watch and see what happens.

Asinner said:

Is Matthew 25 a pointless effort?

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See above.

Asinner said:

Looking at this passage with your prescribed "lens" on, how do you interpret this?
James 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

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Another oldie but goodie.......

Show me undefiled religion...and I'll show you Christianity.

Did people at the time of Jesus have anything to go by as an example except for religion? The whole point that was being made with undefiled (pure) religion equaling [insert examples of Christian goodness] is that there isn't such a religion practiced. And thus he's using this ideal of religion to explain Christianity.

What He's NOT getting at is..."you have to be perfect in your religion in order for those results to come about"...is He?

Hello?.....Scribes? Pharisees?


Thanks for readin!

Love isn't what a Christian is "supposed" to do. Love is what a Christian "does" (...and it happens when you trust Christ to do it for you). That's His job...to turn you into a "lover".

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How is this accomplished?

He will accomplish His good will, and His will for you is your completeness in Jesus.........and you think you're supposed to do something for that to happen?

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I believe I am to practice Love, yes. Love for God and my neighbor is nothing, until it is shown. I can say I love my neighbor all day long, but if I don't clothe them, or feed them, or visit them in prison, then my "love" is in vain.

Show me undefiled religion...and I'll show you Christianity.


Did people at the time of Jesus have anything to go by as an example except for religion? The whole point that was being made with undefiled (pure) religion equaling [insert examples of Christian goodness] is that there isn't such a religion practiced. And thus he's using this ideal of religion to explain Christianity.

What He's NOT getting at is..."you have to be perfect in your religion in order for those results to come about"...is He?

Hello?.....Scribes? Pharisees?


Thanks for readin!

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So, I must first feel Christ's Love before I can practice undefiled religion, or I am a scribe and pharisee?

I believe it works this way . . . I am to practice Love by feeding the poor, clothing the naked, visiting those in prison, the orphans and the widows (even though I don't always feel like doing it). Love is doing, not saying, or even feeling it True Love can only begin with the death of my self-Love. I must empty myself of myself to allow God to work through me.

Summary: I do not even begin to Love yet. When I practice Love, even though I am destitute of Love, something is ignited within me and though Grace, His Love is revealed. This spark of Christ's Love, if you will, carries me heavenward and fills me with a yearning for His fullness. The more I do unto others, the greater this Love becomes.

This holds true for every Virtue. How can I know Humility until I turn the other cheek? How can I know Obedience until I submit to others?

Love,
Christina

Mod note:

Thread moved over to Christian scriptures based upon the topic.

Ticker,

The perspective that you hold is what almost turned me completely away from Christ when I was a protestant. I do not mean to hurt your feelings or be offensive at all, so please forgive me if I have done so. I cannot discuss this with you honestly if I do not point this out. You preach a doctrine of despair, IMO, because if I don't feel Love toward my neighbor, then I am more likely to drown in (your words) "self-condemnation, inadequecy, and guilt" than if I follow the commandments of God, realizing my poverty. It is the difference btw. righteousness and self-righteousness . . . practicing Love vs. proclaiming that I have Love.

It is hypocrisy, plain and simple, and the fuel atheists use (correctly so) to justify their position. To hear the words, "I have Love", "I am a Christian", "I am saved", "I am Holy", "I am a Saint", yet not to see these words manifested, is enough to call Christianity a lie. The better example is that of Christ's, who Lived out His Love in Humilty, Meekness, Obedience, Self-Denial, Suffering.

Am I a Christian? Hardly. Do I Love? I have not even begun to know what it is. Am I a saint? No. I am a sinner. Do I have works? My works are nothing. Do I have Faith? It is weak. Am I saved? Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me!

Love,
Christina

Hey Asinner...

I really can't understand what you're saying in these posts. To me it's like you're speakng in oxymorons....'cause on the one hand you seem to recognize "love" as something a Christian does, but on the other hand, you're just not realizing how exactly you do it. You're so close! But it all really comes back to how you see love as a religious "duty" YOU have to perform.....that's the problem.

I never said you shouldn't do what you don't feel like doing. In fact....I don't even think in these terms of should or shouldn't. I often don't feel like loving people, but I END UP DOING IT ANYWAYS....because of my desire to do so AND the freedom I have to do it. That's the whole point! I toil because I WANT TO....NOT because I HAVE to. Get the diffrence?

What you're basically saying though is that Christianity is about doing Christian things such as love, forgiveness, humbleness because it's simply our religious "duty" to do them???

HUH???

THAT'S CHRISTIANITY???????

THAT'S ALL GOD COULD COME UP WITH????

Please.....give Him a bit more credit with coming up with something a bit more supernatural than that (which.....He actually has). 'Cause what you're talking about is just simply moral living.

"It was for freedom the Christ set us free"! And I'm sorry to say it, but it seems pretty clear to me that you unfortunately don't really believe or aren't really aware of what exactly that means.

What unfortunately you do believe (as you stated above) is that you're not in fact a saint (...and therefore not a lover by nature. Christ's nature). AND THAT is exactly what's keeping you from being what you are. How are you gonna live righteously when you don't even think you're righteous, sister?

It really, truly saddens my heart to hear you actually believe that stuff. Honestly. And I can't really explain the contrary any further, except to say....the "good news" is actually better than you seem to think or have been taught to believe.

I don't know what exactly turned you away from protestantism (which, I don't really consider myself being), but it surely wasn't this message of grace.

Peace

I am sorry you misunderstand me. It is probably my fault. I do not know what else to say . . . except, may Christ, our true God, bless you and keep you. I also ask for prayers.

Love,
Christina

You have my prayers. Sure.

And I can't really think of anything much more to say regarding this. I don't think I could word it better than I have in my last 2 posts....'cause I think they pretty much say everything a Christian really needs to know regarding the acutal good news.

Blessings to you.

While there is value in mutual accountability between Christians [James 5:16], the unidirectional relationship between parishioner and priest is inconsistent with Scripture. Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men [1 Timothy 2:5].

ticker said:

First of all, I never said I don't labour....but that is my life being moved into action as motivated by the Spirit, not by me forcing myself to carry out some religious duties I think I'm suppoed to.

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Just I've never said that I do not rely on grace to empower my actions.
Point of fact, I've made it very clear that I do.

A lot of what you've said here confirms my suspicion that you're not really understanding what a life lived by the Grace of God entails.

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That's rich. I've quoted bible, you reference your experience and judge what my life in Christ has been based upon my few words on a forum, and, let's face it, your personal biases.

It doesn't mean a passive life at all....far from it. The life that God has called me to is more challenging that I could ever handle, and my only option is to admit my complete inadequecy in living it, and trust in His full adequecy.

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Let Him do it for you, eh, just "relax" just 'chill out dude,' it's all good. Never mind the scripture says that He does it through you, not for you.

But what I DON'T do however is make pointless efforts to try and gain spiritual progress by my own actions. It's the very lie of satan (that still lingers in our "flesh") permeating from the Garden that makes Christians buy into the falsity that they aren't presentable to God as they are.....and that's where religion comes in, leading you to do things in order to put on your "best suit" for Him.

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Sounds like you're reciting your own experience, not my words

But that's not the gospel!!!!

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That's a lie that's just keeping you in bondage! From one brother to another....trust me!

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It's not a question of being in bondage, but in bondage to whom.
"it is no longer I who live, but Christ in me...and the life I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me."

Understanding the truth is the only thing that will set you free from this lie, but you're gonna have a hard time receiving the truth if you insist on looking at scripture with the wrong lenses on...the lenses of legalism...which is precisely what's skewing your whole perception of what the Christian experience is meant to be.

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You accuse me of legalism. Shall I accuse you of antinominianism? (Lawlessness)?
I think not. I needn't get personal to make the point, I let the scriptures speak for me.

And that "fear and trembling" quote you conveniently plucked out of the Phillipians passage speaks volumes of your current perception of scripture. But that quote doesn't at all mean what you think it means. If you understand the grace message of the Bible though, and maybe just read a couple lines further, you'll see it's actually getting at quite the opposite of what you're suggesting.

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So you say- and then fail to demonstrate.

It's right up there with the same old tired "If you love me you will keep my commandments", "Faith without works is dead", or "Anyone who breaks the least of these commandments..." quotes that are often taken out of context by religious Christians who haven't yet understood the grace message of the Bible and then read the verses in the wrong light.

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Same as above

Once you get an "Ah-ha" moment though with these verses (...and many others that end up revealing they mean quite the opposite from what they seemed) then there's just no going back.

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Voila!Presto chango, they don't mean what they mean.
Away with the hubris.
Let James speak to the matter at hand:
"Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind. Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection. "
Poor James, he knew not this "grace message" of which you speak.
Lord have mercy.

As I said.....believe what you want. I'm not the kind of person who gets hell bent on convincing other posters I'm right in order to feel I've won an "argument". I'm very confident of what I speak simply because it actually gives me what Jesus has promised in the Bible (...an abundant and glorious life in Him), and not because it just makes sense to me as a theology, or because it's something I've just been taught and have always believed in.

What I do try to do in my posts is simply share the good news, and I always explain scripture I quote when it's called for. And I've quoted lots of scripture and elaborated on it already in this thread (which is relatively small) regarding this topic....so feel free to look at it to get a better understanding of where I'm coming from.

But the thing is, I purposely left the "fear and trembling" thing up to you to explore SIMPLY BECAUSE one needn't read any further than the next couple lines to see how they could be blinding themselves from the truth. And the same goes for those other verses that are often conveniently plucked out of context.

I often explain in great detail those very verses on these boards to offer a clearer picture of living by grace to legalists....but what I'm seeing with you is more of a need to get your whole paradigm changed than simply going back and forth on what certain verses may mean and playing scriptural wars...and that is why I have felt the need to get into what you claim as "hubris".

Sure......hubris it is then. What do I know?

And if this could all mean I'm Paul...and you're James...then I'm quite happy with that.

There are a number of ways to see that Christ forgives through His priests. Here is one:

• The Son of Man has authority to forgive sins (Mt. 9:6)
• As the Father has sent me so I send you...then He breathed on them...whose sins you forgive are forgiven (Jn 20:20-23)
• And to whom you have pardoned any thing, I also. For, what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned any thing, for your sakes have I done it in the person of Christ. (2 Cor 2:10)

Also, I don't know if anyone has mentioned Acts 19:9-18 in this long thread, but here's how it goes:

Paul and 12 disciples (on whom he gave the Spirit by laying his hands on them (v. 6)) were preaching in a certain building called the "hall of Tyrannus" (v. 9). That's where they preached for 2 years (v. 10). (incidentally, v. 11-12 is an example of relics in Scripture ) Signs were performed (v. 11-17) that revealed Christ. This became known to "residents of Ephesus" (v. 17). Then it says many of these new believers "now came" to confess their sins (v. 18). Presumably they "came" to the "hall of Tyrannus" were Paul and his ordained disciples were. But what is important is that these new believers didn't just confess their sins where they were, straight to God.

Coupled with the authority Christ gave to the apostles in the bullet-points above, this is a very strong case that the sinners came to confess to ordained ministers.

ticker said:

And if this could all mean I'm Paul...and you're James...then I'm quite happy with that.

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To quote Paul:
"Is Christ divided?"
I do not choose one over another. Rather, I look to the whole counsel. I suspect that you do as well, but that you choose to emphasize one over another for reasons that are not germaine to this discussion.
Peace

MrPolo said:

There are a number of ways to see that Christ forgives through His priests. Here is one:

• The Son of Man has authority to forgive sins (Mt. 9:6)
• As the Father has sent me so I send you...then He breathed on them...whose sins you forgive are forgiven (Jn 20:20-23)
• And to whom you have pardoned any thing, I also. For, what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned any thing, for your sakes have I done it in the person of Christ. (2 Cor 2:10)

Also, I don't know if anyone has mentioned Acts 19:9-18 in this long thread, but here's how it goes:

Paul and 12 disciples (on whom he gave the Spirit by laying his hands on them (v. 6)) were preaching in a certain building called the "hall of Tyrannus" (v. 9). That's where they preached for 2 years (v. 10). (incidentally, v. 11-12 is an example of relics in Scripture ) Signs were performed (v. 11-17) that revealed Christ. This became known to "residents of Ephesus" (v. 17). Then it says many of these new believers "now came" to confess their sins (v. 18). Presumably they "came" to the "hall of Tyrannus" were Paul and his ordained disciples were. But what is important is that these new believers didn't just confess their sins where they were, straight to God.

Coupled with the authority Christ gave to the apostles in the bullet-points above, this is a very strong case that the sinners came to confess to ordained ministers.

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Excellent post.
Histoically, however, we know that the early Church tended to conduct confession in the whole congregation. The earliest name of this mystery/sacrament was/is The Sacrament of Reconciliation. The reconciliation was, in the mind of the Church of the first 4 centuries, to the Church.
Eventualy, confession was done privately with a presvyter or Confessor (could be and can be laity) so as to avoid scandal.
In this respect, the Body demonstrates a degree of disease, for the tares among the wheat broke, and would presumably break- the sanctity and privacy of the confession.

And, even though the presvyter has the authority of the Church, and the Church has the authority to forgive sins, nevertheless the order of confession states clearly that it is Christ alone who truly has the power to forgive.
Thanks be to Christ that He already has, and gives His Church the power to announce and proclaim.

Rdr Iakovos said:

Excellent post.

And, even though the presvyter has the authority of the Church, and the Church has the authority to forgive sins, nevertheless the order of confession states clearly that it is Christ alone who truly has the power to forgive.
Thanks be to Christ that He already has, and gives His Church the power to announce and proclaim.

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Thank you. And the Catholic Church also claims is it Christ alone who can forgive.