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Scripture alone regarding confessing sins.

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simonthezealot

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With the Catholics boycotting I'll take this opportunity to post this to hear from different protestant sect.

I've often been troubled by the weight put upon human beings (catholic priests) of listening to and dealing with thousands of peoples sins I personally don't think it is right to put this on another human.

I am interested in 1 thing only, "what saith scripture about confession to others"
 
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myfavoritmartin

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1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Psalm 51:2-3
"Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me."​



 
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myfavoritmartin

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8:18 Now Simon, when he saw that the Spirit 1 was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, offered them money, 8:19 saying, “Give me this power 2 too, so that everyone I place my hands on may receive the Holy Spirit.” 8:20 But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, 3 because you thought you could acquire 4 God’s gift with money! 8:21 You have no share or part 5 in this matter 6 because your heart is not right before God! 8:22 Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord 7 that he may perhaps forgive you for the intent of your heart. 8
 
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PROPHECYKID

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One of the Jobs of the priests under the Old covenant was to act like a mediator between God and man. The priest would sacrifice the animals on the behalf of the people and would plead for the forgiveness of their sins. But Jesus is our high priest and mediator. No other human being needs to know about our sins. We should confess our faults to those we have faults with and not to Tom, Dick and Harry. We can ask our fellow members to pray on our behalf but they have no more authority or say as to if God will answer and how God will answer. When Jesus claimed to forgive sins he was accused of blasphemy. Why? Because he claimed to have power to do something that only God can do and he was taking the authority of God. He was God so that was not wrong. But a normal human being acting like a mediator is blasphemy for he is assuming the responsibility of Jesus.
 
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Thekla

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exomologisthe/exomologoumai

exomologesis

its meaning is not quite as rendered in English. Fr, John Chryssavgis defines it: "an acceptance of and submission to the divine Logos (Christ), beyond and above the nature of the condition of man." It is the moving toward regaining the image of Christ through metanoia (turn of the nous/repentance). In this sense, it is not an enumeration of failures, but a recognition of the failure to retain, undistorted, the image of Christ in oneself.
 
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Trento

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John, chapter 20



21: Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you."
22: And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
23: If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."



Protestant Historical Scholar Philip Schaff -- HISTORY of the CHRISTIAN CHURCH
CHAPTER IV:





The ministerial office was instituted by the Lord before his ascension, and solemnly inaugurated on the first Christian Pentecost by the outpouring of the Holy Ghost, to be the regular organ of the kingly power of Christ on earth in founding, maintaining, and extending the church. It appears in the New Testament under different names, descriptive of its various functions:—the "ministry of the word," "of the Spirit," "of righteousness," "of reconciliation." It includes the preaching of the gospel, the administration of the sacraments, and church discipline or the power of the keys, the power to open and shut the gates of the kingdom of heaven, in other words, to declare to the penitent the forgiveness of sins, and to the unworthy excommunication in the name and by the Authority of Christ.
The idea and institution of a special priesthood, distinct from the body of the people, with the accompanying notion of sacrifice and altar, passed imperceptibly from Jewish reminiscences and analogies into the Christian church.

In the external organization of the church, several important changes appear in the period before us. The distinction of clergy and laity, and the sacerdotal view of the ministry becomes prominent and fixed; subordinate church offices are multiplied; the episcopate arises; the beginnings of the Roman primacy appear; and the exclusive unity of the Catholic church develops itself in opposition to heretics and schismatics. The apostolical organization of the first century now gives place to the old Catholic episcopal system.
 
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holdon

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Mr. Schaff, protestant as he may be, gives proof he understands as little about this passage as the Roman Catholics do. May be even the latter have a better understanding.

Because what is at stake here is not "forgiveness of sins" by God. We know we have that, eternally. Col. 1:14.

But this is about "administrative forgiveness". As we cannot understand what is in the heart of a person, (what is between him and God) but only his outward confession and acts, the apostles (and any church assembled in Christ's name), have the duty to administer the forgiveness of sins. What we thus bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven. It is a ministry for the earth, not heaven. Declaring who is "in" and who is "out". Not the eternal destiny, but for here and now.
 
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Albion

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That we should confess to each other as well as to God...

...and that the Apostles were given by Christ the commission to forgive sins,

leads me to the conclusion that we cannot easily dismiss these Biblical admonitions.

But on the other hand, confessing individually to a priest is not Apostolic, from all that we know.

Therefore, I find that my church's practice of the congregation confessing its sins as a group (called a General Confession) followed by absolution given by the priest/minister but in the name of God, and without an assessment of any individual's confession, is a sound policy.

It might also be worth noting that in Trento's post a few messages back he quotes from a Protestant writer what happened in early Christianity, not that what transpired was correct or intended by Christ. But even at that, we should pay close attention to the 2nd word in the following (in red) from it, i.e. that forgiveness be 'declared,' not granted by the priest as if done on his own authority: to declare to the penitent the forgiveness of sins
 
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mont974x4

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Repentence is between a man and God alone....no pope or earthly priest required.

We can, and should, confess to another brother but not as a means of repentence or cleansing of sins but because there is accountability and the bearing of one anothers burdens that occurs in this.
 
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E.C.

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In Orthodox thought and theology regarding confession, one confesses to God, not the priest.

The priest is merely a witness.

However, to get into why that is necessary, would be getting into the whole spider web of Orthodox theology and about twenty separate subjects.
 
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ticker

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However, to get into why that is necessary, would be getting into the whole spider web of Orthodox theology and about twenty separate subjects.

Christianity isn't about a twenty subject web of theology, dear friend.....it's about trusting Christ to give you what is "necessary" in your walk. Him....not your effort, intellect, knowledge, or background.

Resting in Him is where we find the peace to love. Unrest in ourselves, however (...in thinking we have to know the "right" things to do as Christians), is what will sabatoge the joy Christ is offering you...a joy to be shared with the world around you.

The good news is...His role is to live this life you've died to, and your role is to just trust that He'll do so.

Try it....it works!
 
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namericanboy

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ticker The good news is...[I said:
His[/i] role is to live this life you've died to, and your role is to just trust that He'll do so.

Try it....it works!

I've always wondered about the extra "stuff"...We come to Him with the simple child like faith..We see all these things/rules added that I didn't see in the early church..Like Peter's first street message 3'000 were added to the church in one meeting , they believed in Christ. Yet today you have to got through a program or a series of steps over time to be born anew and accepted in the church..
 
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Catholic Christian

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The Forgiveness of Sins

All pardon for sins ultimately comes from Christ’s finished work on Calvary, but how is this pardon received by individuals? Did Christ leave us any means within the Church to take away sin? The Bible says he gave us two means.

Baptism was given to take away the sin inherited from Adam (original sin) and any sins we personally committed before baptism—sins we personally commit are called actual sins, because they come from our own acts. Thus on the day of Pentecost, Peter told the crowds, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38), and when Paul was baptized he was told, "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16). And so Peter later wrote, "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21).

For sins committed after baptism, a different sacrament is needed. It has been called penance, confession, and reconciliation, each word emphasizing one of its aspects. During his life, Christ forgave sins, as in the case of the woman caught in adultery (John 8:1–11) and the woman who anointed his feet (Luke 7:48). He exercised this power in his human capacity as the Messiah or Son of man, telling us, "the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (Matt. 9:6), which is why the Gospel writer himself explains that God "had given such authority to men" (Matt. 9:8).

Since he would not always be with the Church visibly, Christ gave this power to other men so the Church, which is the continuation of his presence throughout time (Matt. 28:20), would be able to offer forgiveness to future generations. He gave his power to the apostles, and it was a power that could be passed on to their successors and agents, since the apostles wouldn’t always be on earth either, but people would still be sinning.

God had sent Jesus to forgive sins, but after his resurrection Jesus told the apostles, "‘As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’" (John 20:21–23). (This is one of only two times we are told that God breathed on man, the other being in Genesis 2:7, when he made man a living soul. It emphasizes how important the establishment of the sacrament of penance was.)


The Commission

Christ told the apostles to follow his example: "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you" (John 20:21). Just as the apostles were to carry Christ’s message to the whole world, so they were to carry his forgiveness: "Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 18:18).

This power was understood as coming from God: "All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation" (2 Cor. 5:18). Indeed, confirms Paul, "So we are ambassadors for Christ" (2 Cor. 5:20).

Some say that any power given to the apostles died with them. Not so. Some powers must have, such as the ability to write Scripture. But the powers necessary to maintain the Church as a living, spiritual society had to be passed down from generation to generation. If they ceased, the Church would cease, except as a quaint abstraction. Christ ordered the apostles to, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations." It would take much time. And he promised them assistance: "Lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age" (Matt. 28:19–20).

If the disciples believed that Christ instituted the power to sacramentally forgive sins in his stead, we would expect the apostles’ successors—the bishops—and Christians of later years to act as though such power was legitimately and habitually exercised. If, on the other hand, the sacramental forgiveness of sins was what Fundamentalists term it, an "invention," and if it was something foisted upon the young Church by ecclesiastical or political leaders, we’d expect to find records of protest. In fact, in early Christian writings we find no sign of protests concerning sacramental forgiveness of sins. Quite the contrary. We find confessing to a priest was accepted as part of the original deposit of faith handed down from the apostles.


Confession Implied

Note that the power Christ gave the apostles was twofold: to forgive sins or to hold them bound, which means to retain them unforgiven. Several things follow from this. First, the apostles could not know what sins to forgive and what not to forgive unless they were first told the sins by the sinner. This implies confession. Second, their authority was not merely to proclaim that God had already forgiven sins or that he would forgive sins if there were proper repentance.

Such interpretations don’t account for the distinction between forgiving and retaining—nor do they account for the importance given to the utterance in John 20:21–23. If God has already forgiven all of a man’s sins, or will forgive them all (past and future) upon a single act of repentance, then it makes little sense to tell the apostles they have been given the power to "retain" sins, since forgiveness would be all-or-nothing and nothing could be "retained."

Furthermore, if at conversion we were forgiven all sins, past, present, and future, it would make no sense for Christ to require us to pray, "And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors," which he explained is required because "if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses" (Matt. 6:12–15).

If forgiveness really can be partial—not a once-for-all thing—how is one to tell which sins have been forgiven, which not, in the absence of a priestly decision? You can’t very well rely on your own gut feelings. No, the biblical passages make sense only if the apostles and their successors were given a real authority.

Still, some people are not convinced. One is Paul Juris, a former priest, now a Fundamentalist, who has written a pamphlet on this subject. The pamphlet is widely distributed by organizations opposed to Catholicism. The cover describes the work as "a study of John 20:23, a much misunderstood and misused portion of Scripture pertaining to the forgiveness of sins." Juris mentions "two main schools of thought," the Catholic and the Fundamentalist positions.

He correctly notes that "among Christians, it is generally agreed that regular confession of one’s sins is obviously necessary to remain in good relationship with God. So the issue is not whether we should or should not confess our sins. Rather, the real issue is, How does God say that our sins are forgiven or retained?"


Verse Slinging

This sounds fine, on the surface, but this apparently reasonable approach masks what really happens next. Juris engages in verse slinging, listing as many verses as he can find that refer to God forgiving sins, in hopes that the sheer mass of verses will settle the question. But none of the verses he lists specifically interprets John 20:23, and none contradicts the Catholic interpretation.

For instance, he cites verses like these: "Let it be known to you therefore, brethren, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and by him every one that believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses" (Acts 13:38–39); "And he said to them, ‘Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned’" (Mark 16:15–16).

Juris says that verses like these demonstrate that "all that was left for the disciples to do was to ‘go’ and ‘proclaim’ this wonderful good news (the gospel) to all men. As they proclaimed this good news of the gospel, those who believed the gospel, their sins would be forgiven. Those who rejected (did not believe) the gospel, their sins would be retained." Juris does nothing more than show that the Bible says God will forgive sins and that it is through Jesus that our sins are forgiven—things no one doubts. He does not remotely prove that John 20:23 is equivalent to a command to "go" and to "preach," merely that going and preaching are part of God’s plan for saving people. He also sidesteps the evident problems in the Fundamentalist interpretation.

The passage says nothing about preaching the good news. Instead, Jesus is telling the apostles that they have been empowered to do something. He does not say, "When God forgives men’s sins, they are forgiven." He uses the second person plural: "you." And he talks about the apostles forgiving, not preaching. When he refers to retaining sins, he uses the same form: "When you hold them bound, they are held bound."

The best Juris can do is assert that John 20:23 means the apostles were given authority only to proclaim the forgiveness of sins—but asserting this is not proving it.

His is a technique that often works because many readers believe that the Fundamentalist interpretation has been proven true. After all, if you propose to interpret one verse and accomplish that by listing irrelevant verses that refer to something other than the specific point in controversy, lazy readers will conclude that you have marshalled an impressive array of evidence. All they have to do is count the citations. Here’s one for the Catholics, they say, looking at John 20:21–23, but ten or twenty for the Fundamentalists. The Fundamentalists must be right!


The Advantages

Is the Catholic who confesses his sins to a priest any better off than the non-Catholic who confesses directly to God? Yes. First, he seeks forgiveness the way Christ intended. Second, by confessing to a priest, the Catholic learns a lesson in humility, which is avoided when one confesses only through private prayer. Third, the Catholic receives sacramental graces the non-Catholic doesn’t get; through the sacrament of penance sins are forgiven and graces are obtained. Fourth, the Catholic is assured that his sins are forgiven; he does not have to rely on a subjective "feeling." Lastly, the Catholic can also obtain sound advice on avoiding sin in the future.

During his lifetime Christ sent out his followers to do his work. Just before he left this world, he gave the apostles special authority, commissioning them to make God’s forgiveness present to all people, and the whole Christian world accepted this, until just a few centuries ago. If there is an "invention" here, it is not the sacrament of penance, but the notion that the sacramental forgiveness of sins is not to be found in the Bible or in early Christian history.


NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004

 
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Albion

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I think that in principle you're quite right. The Early Church was very much unlike the present churches in many ways. Yet there is a strong resistance to admitting this. It could make a good discussion here on a thread of its own, but I know that if that were done, we'd hear the same old, denominational claims without any willingness to say, "Yes there were changes. Let's see which ones were appropriate or of no particular consequence and which ones were mistakes."
 
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simonthezealot

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I've often been troubled by the weight put upon human beings (catholic priests) of listening to and dealing with thousands of peoples sins I personally don't think it is right to put this on another human.
Terry in your post below your cut and paste does NOT address one of the main points of my OP...

What are your thoughts?
 
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