Scapegoat

livingone · Mar 10, 2007

Your sins are your own. Stop placing them on the devil's shoulders.
You say because of the devil I have sin. WRONG. Because of your own hands you have sin. Well you say the devil made me do it. What about freewill? I guess that makes you a puppet and your forsaken devil is your puppet master.

meebs · Mar 10, 2007

livingone said:
Your sins are your own. Stop placing them on the devil's shoulders.
You say because of the devil I have sin. WRONG. Because of your own hands you have sin. Well you say the devil made me do it. What about freewill? I guess that makes you a puppet and your forsaken devil is your puppet master.

Your right!

Each person is responsible for his or her actions whether good or bad (or neutral), cant disagree there!

DailyBlessings · Mar 10, 2007

This I have long agreed with. Satan as big bad voodoo daddy isn't even good theology, much less a practically beneficial concept in ethics.

livingone · Mar 10, 2007

DailyBlessings said:
This I have long agreed with. Satan as big bad voodoo daddy isn't even good theology, much less a practically beneficial concept in ethics.

Yep, there is the big bad devil--the master of puppets and sinners are just the puppets with strings. Yea, right, when a murderer decides to shoot someone, it's the puppet master lifting up his hand and pulling the trigger.
Puppets on strings.

Photios · Mar 10, 2007

The tempter is real, but cannot force us to give in. The responsibility rests on our shoulders for giving in. That is the choice, the free will involved in sin. The ancient Church would have been incredulous at the idea of someone claiming, "The devil made me do it."

livingone · Mar 10, 2007

Photios said:
The tempter is real, but cannot force us to give in. The responsibility rests on our shoulders for giving in. That is the choice, the free will involved in sin. The ancient Church would have been incredulous at the idea of someone claiming, "The devil made me do it."

You're right the tempter does exist. We all tempt eachother with sin.

Photios · Mar 10, 2007

Do not mistake me. I am referring to the actual existence of the betrayer/adversary/tempter known as satan. Sure, we may tempt each other, but that does not indicate the non-existence of this entity, the prime tempter, if you will. As Christians, who accept the Holy Scripture, we have no reason to doubt his existence. There are, from some denominations, arguements against free will, but I obviously don't agree with them.

livingone · Mar 10, 2007

Photios said:
Do not mistake me. I am referring to the actual existence of the betrayer/adversary/tempter known as satan. Sure, we may tempt each other, but that does not indicate the non-existence of this entity, the prime tempter, if you will. As Christians, who accept the Holy Scripture, we have no reason to doubt his existence. There are, from some denominations, arguements against free will, but I obviously don't agree with them.

If Satan is the tempter then provide me with evidence with one experience he came to a person or persons and tempted them with sin.
You'll probably refer to the book of Job; but the only temptation that Satan was trying to provoke Job into doing was cursing at God. Obvioulsy that is not a sin, since Jesus says whoever raises a word against the Father shall be forgiven.

Photios · Mar 10, 2007

livingone said:
If Satan is the tempter then provide me with evidence with one experience he came to a person or persons and tempted them with sin.
You'll probably refer to the book of Job; but the only temptation that Satan was trying to provoke Job into doing was cursing at God. Obvioulsy that is not a sin, since Jesus says whoever raises a word against the Father shall be forgiven.

Off the top of my head, Genesis and the Gospels. If you paid attention, you would have noted that I did not say that he is the exclusive tempter, but the prime tempter. Either way, what I'm saying is that we have some written accounts of this entity existing and indications of his character. From a Christian context, there is no real reason to deny his existence. I can see why an atheist might, but that's not exactly the same thing.

livingone · Mar 10, 2007

Photios said:
Off the top of my head, Genesis and the Gospels. If you paid attention, you would have noted that I did not say that he is the exclusive tempter, but the prime tempter. Either way, what I'm saying is that we have some written accounts of this entity existing and indications of his character. From a Christian context, there is no real reason to deny his existence. I can see why an atheist might, but that's not exactly the same thing.

Yes, Adam and eve was tempted by the serpent to eat from the tree of knowledge between good and evil. But is this a temptation to sin? Is it not good to have knowledge between good and evil? What wickedness did the serpent commit, what evil, by giving man the knowledge between good and evil? Was it not man's choice to choose evil over good?
Before hand man did not have knowledge between good and evil--that does not mean that they were not committing good and evil. It is just symbolic that the serpent became a teacher of good and evil. It was not a temptation to sin, but a temptation to see as the gods do. What evil is there in looking through the eyes of the gods--wouldn't that be most desireable to man?
You say the serpent is evil, No, the serpent is not evil; but a teacher of knowledge--that through knowledge; as spoken in the bible--the first adam was given a living-soul and the last adam was a quickening spirit. How from the first Adam could the last Adam become a quickening spirit unless he has knowledge between good and evil? Without the knowledge between good and evil, the holy spirit which is the last Adam could never have come into being. Now, you tell me what evil the serpent has committed.
I do not deny that Satan does not exist. According to theology, Satan was the accuser of the great council--the rebel angel. Does that necessarily make him evil? No, Satan just had a differing opinion or philosophy. Satan is the great tempter, however, in his temptation he restores desire and provides knowlege of the body; rather than the spirit. And you say that since he provides knowlege of the body--that he is the bringer of sin. But does not wisdom first seek the mind and then fall to the body?
Even Jesus Christ said, in scripture, sin is the child of wisdom and wisdom always goes to her children. Those who are virginly pure do not have knowlege of the body and therefore have no sin, neither do they have wisdom. Like I said, Lady wisdom always goes to her children which are those who the virgins and saints call sinners.
The serpent or the dragon or reptile has always been symbolic to embodiment of infernal wisdom.

fuzzyh · Mar 10, 2007

The puppet master made you say that.

Photios · Mar 10, 2007

livingone said:
Yes, Adam and eve was tempted by the serpent to eat from the tree of knowledge between good and evil. But is this a temptation to sin? Is it not good to have knowledge between good and evil? What wickedness did the serpent commit, what evil, by giving man the knowledge between good and evil? Was it not man's choice to choose evil over good?
Before hand man did not have knowledge between good and evil--that does not mean that they were not committing good and evil. It is just symbolic that the serpent became a teacher of good and evil. It was not a temptation to sin, but a temptation to see as the gods do. What evil is there in looking through the eyes of the gods--wouldn't that be most desireable to man?
You say the serpent is evil, No, the serpent is not evil; but a teacher of knowledge--that through knowledge; as spoken in the bible--the first adam was given a living-soul and the last adam was a quickening spirit. How from the first Adam could the last Adam become a quickening spirit unless he has knowledge between good and evil? Without the knowledge between good and evil, the holy spirit which is the last Adam could never have come into being. Now, you tell me what evil the serpent has committed.
I do not deny that Satan does not exist. According to theology, Satan was the accuser of the great council--the rebel angel. Does that necessarily make him evil? No, Satan just had a differing opinion or philosophy. Satan is the great tempter, however, in his temptation he restores desire and provides knowlege of the body; rather than the spirit. And you say that since he provides knowlege of the body--that he is the bringer of sin. But does not wisdom first seek the mind and then fall to the body?
Even Jesus Christ said, in scripture, sin is the child of wisdom and wisdom always goes to her children. Those who are virginly pure do not have knowlege of the body and therefore have no sin, neither do they have wisdom. Like I said, Lady wisdom always goes to her children which are those who the virgins and saints call sinners.
The serpent or the dragon or reptile has always been symbolic to embodiment of infernal wisdom.

Sounds to me that you've been reading too much Michael Aquino. At the very least, you have a definitely non-Christian theology while you are using symbols of Christianity in your heading on this forum, which is either a mistake on your part, or an outright deception.

livingone · Mar 10, 2007

fuzzyh said:
The puppet master made you say that.

I know I'm made out of wood and strings. Every time I tell a lie my nose grows.
When do I get to be a real boy?

fuzzyh · Mar 11, 2007

livingone said:
I know I'm made out of wood and strings. Every time I tell a lie my nose grows.
When do I get to be a real boy?

I think it's somewhere around 500 posts.

If you can't reason with them, humor them.

MedicMan · Mar 12, 2007

Indeed it is down to our own minds whether we choose to give in to temptation or not, but temptation still exists, and it is Satan that gives us this temptation. It is the duty of every one of us to rebuke Satan, and trust the Lord to give us the strength to stay pure. We well never be tempted so much that we cannot resist; God is too merciful for this.

1 Corinthians 10:12-13 (NIV)
12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall! 13No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

Trust in the Lord, and He will aid you.

livingone said:
Even Jesus Christ said, in scripture, sin is the child of wisdom and wisdom always goes to her children.

Did He indeed? Would you be so kind as to furnish us with the quote?

~MedicMan~

livingone · Mar 12, 2007

MedicMan said:
Indeed it is down to our own minds whether we choose to give in to temptation or not, but temptation still exists, and it is Satan that gives us this temptation. It is the duty of every one of us to rebuke Satan, and trust the Lord to give us the strength to stay pure. We well never be tempted so much that we cannot resist; God is too merciful for this.

1 Corinthians 10:12-13 (NIV)
12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall! 13No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

Trust in the Lord, and He will aid you.

Did He indeed? Would you be so kind as to furnish us with the quote?

~MedicMan~

That is a lie Satan has never tempted any man to sin. Man tempts man to sin. You just say this is the work of the devil. No it is the work of man. Man is the one who places temptation before your eyes. Give me evidence of one experience where the devil came and tempted man with sin. You can't because he never has. O you can say that he tempted Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge between good and evil. Then I'll say what sin have I committed in knowing the difference between good and evil. You could say that he tempted Job. He only tempted Job to curse at God. Cursing at God is not a sin, Jesus says, whoever raises a word against the Father shall be forgiven. Therefore it is not sin.
I'm the devil's lawyer.

MedicMan · Mar 13, 2007

livingone said:
O you can say that he tempted Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge between good and evil. Then I'll say what sin have I committed in knowing the difference between good and evil.

The sin that Eve and then Adam committed was disobeying the command given to them by the Lord: "...but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die," (Genesis 2:17 NIV). Satan tempted Adam and Eve to commit this sin, they gave in, and were justly punished for it.
And for another, albeit more minor, example, I will take a situation from my own life. I have given up chocolate for lent. I know I must not eat chocolate until Easter Sunday, but still if I'm in a newsagent I still feel the wish to eat chocolate anyway, even though I promised God I wouldn't. There is no other person who is there with me tempting me, and to consider that I tempt myself somehow is ludicrous - why would I try to persuade myself to do something I don't want to do? Satan is there tempting me to break my promise, and that is something I will not let him do.

And I am still waiting for you to show me this quote where Jesus calls sin the 'child of wisdom'...

~MedicMan~

fuzzyh · Mar 13, 2007

livingone,

Although, I read your posts and think humorously about them. You contradict yourself too much.

Jesus says, whoever raises a word against the Father shall be forgiven. Therefore it is not sin.

Forgiveness implies there was a wrong act against God. A wrong act against God is sin. Cursing God is is a wrong act. Therefore cursing God is a sin.

That's two contradictions I've pointed out now in your thinking. The first one, I don't believe you responded to. Want to take a stab here.

livingone · Mar 13, 2007

fuzzyh said:
livingone,

Although, I read your posts and think humorously about them. You contradict yourself too much.

Forgiveness implies there was a wrong act against God. A wrong act against God is sin. Cursing God is is a wrong act. Therefore cursing God is a sin.

That's two contradictions I've pointed out now in your thinking. The first one, I don't believe you responded to. Want to take a stab here.

sin is the trangression against the law. How could it be a transgression against the law to curse at God when the law already states that it is ok to curse at the Father? forgiveness implies that a wrong act took place; but how could I have committed wrong when the law implies that it is ok to curse the Father? What transgression have I made? And against what law? Mans' law? Do not take the lords' name in vain? Man made that stuff up. Jesus said it's ok to take his name and his father's name in vain--the law has established this by saying so; therefore, there is no transgression involved.

MedicMan · Mar 14, 2007

Is there any reason why I can't see any of livingone's posts anymore?

~MedicMan~

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