Scapegoat-Adventist website: "Satan will bear the sins of the righteous"

BobRyan · May 30, 2024

tall73 said:
The "one" that is the title of the thread is a quote from the website, and combines elements of multiple statements from Ellen White.

The quote on the GC website about the scapegoat was misleading to non-SDA readers, it has been corrected.

BobRyan · May 30, 2024

tall73 said:
Ellen White says again and again that satan is the scapegoat. And Bob agrees.

As does the web page referenced in the OP

tall73 said:
Bob, why is Ellen White telling these believers to pray much that THEIR SINS may be confessed on the head of satan?

Lt 8, 1850

m.egwwritings.org

Much love to your dear father and to your sisters and brother. Tell them to be faithful to serve God. I have often prayed for them. Tell them to pray much that their sins may be confessed upon the head of the scape goat and borne away into the land of forgetfulness.

She wants them to be faithful to serve God and PRAY MUCH that their sins may be confessed on the scapegoat.

Obviously because in the sanctuary the blood of Christ cleanses from all sin - and only AFTER That work is complete does the scapegoat have any part to play. Satan bears responsibility for his work in tempting the saints (those not of his kingdom) to sin. As has been repeatedly pointed out.

But the wicked pay for their own sins, for which they forfeit the atoning blood of the sin offering in the sanctuary. IN their case those sins are on their own head even though Christ "is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only - but for the sins of the whole world" 1 John 2:2 NIV.

Satan has no additional guilt assigned to him as the scapegoat since the wicked are members of his own kingdom following him of their own free will.

But in the case of the saints - Satan does have additional guilt assigned since they are not part of his kingdom.

All of which you already knew - but chose not to share.

====================

As that web site now says --

"In the earthly Day of Atonement service, there was a scapegoat (Leviticus 16). This animal symbolically received the sins from the sanctuary and carried them into the wilderness.

In the ultimate cleansing of sin from the universe, there will be a final scapegoat. Satan, the arch-deceiver, will bear all the sins which he has caused God’s people to commit, not in connection with their salvation but to suffer retribution for his role as the author of sin. When the sanctuary in Heaven is cleansed and the pre-advent phase of judgment is finished, those sins will be transferred to Satan as part of his condemnation and final punishment.

In Revelation, it speaks of an angel who will lay “hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bind him for a thousand years” (Revelation 20:2, NKJV).

Satan will have one thousand years to think about all the sins he tempted God’s people to commit. He will have one thousand years to realize the enormity of the consequences of sin.

At the end of that time, Satan and the unrighteous who did not accept God’s atoning gift of salvation will be destroyed. This is called God’s “strange act” (Isaiah 28:21, KJV).

BobRyan · May 30, 2024

tall73 said:
- AND the bank robbery conducted by some of his former associates that he did not cause.

hmm -- time for us to quote your own post - refuting what you just speculated

tall73 said:
Great Controversy

Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch—Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah.

nice of you to point that out

tall73 said:
Early Writings:

he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!"

nice of you to point that out., If only you would remember what you post - each time you post.

Paying "for what HE has caused" is not "paying someone ELSE's debt - rather it is paying for his own work in that regard" --

Obviously.

As already noted - the bank robbery is not only a crime for those actively holding up the bank - it is also a crime for the mastermind behind it.

Obviously.
BobRyan said:

Yes dear reader - Tall73 says he has given you full disclosure on that 1957 published position... how "instructive" for the unbiased objective reader.

tall73 said:
BobRyan said:
Or is this the part of your strategy that once again relies on your readers not having full access to the material you bring up in your threads?

How instructive that I did not refer to the most divisive book in Adventist history

That is "The book" written for the public and also written specifically to address a key non-SDA scholarly review of our doctrines related to the Dan 7 Investigative judgment. (far from an easy-to-dismiss) detail.

BobRyan said:
Well hmmm... lets take that 1957 document which you claim you informed everyone about --

The Transaction With the Scapegoat q35.htm

Question addressed in 1957 in the book "Questions on Doctrine" -- Question 35

Now lets look closely at the question

BobRyan said:
Q: What is the actual teaching of the Seventh-day Adventist Church regarding the “scapegoat” in the sanctuary service? Do you hold that the sins of the righteous are rolled back on Satan, so that in the end HE becomes your sin bearer??

And the Answer

BobRyan said:
A: "We take our stand without qualification on the gospel platform that the death of Jesus Christ provides the sole propitiation for our sins (1 John 2:2; 4:10); that there is salvation through no other means or medium, and no other name by which we may be saved (Acts 4:12); and that the shed blood of Jesus Christ alone brings remission for our sins (Matt. 26: 28). That is foundational."

BobRyan said:
Readers - ask yourselves how often Tall73 has given you that 1957 published statement... would the number be "zero"??

"Further, we hold to the recognized principle that no cardinal doctrine or belief should be based primarily upon a parable or type, but upon the clear unfigurative statements of Scripture, and understood and defined in the light of explicit declarations of gospel realities. ...

In Leviticus 16, two goats entered into the service of the great day of Atonement. One, in type, made atonement for sin. The other goat, for Azazel, was not slain, but was kept alive, and hence made no atonement for anyone's sins.

"The first goat represented our Lord Jesus Christ, who, on the cross, made atonement for our sins. The other goat, in antithesis, symbolized Satan, who must bear the responsibility not only for his own sins but for his part in all the sins he has caused others, both righteous and wicked, to commit. This live goat, it is to be remembered, was not slain. (Many outstanding authorities support our understanding that the live goat, or Azazel, typified Satan. See Question 34.)

Yes dear reader - Tall73 says he has given you full disclosure on that 1957 published position... how "instructive" for the unbiased objective reader.

tall73 said:
, criticized for not representing Ellen White's writings correctly, and which the denomination would not keep published

Even you admit the denomination published the book - your only remaining complaint is that they did not re-publish what they already published?? seriously??

In fact it WAS republished -

QOD was republished by Andrews University Press in 2003 as part of their "Adventist Classic Library" series. This new edition contained annotations and a historical introduction by George R. Knight. The text of the original book had also been available online for several years prior to this republishing, through a private website.

from:

Questions on Doctrine
Annotated, Republished

BY MARK KELLNER, assistant director for news, General Conference Communication Department

fter a 40-year hiatus, the book Seventh-day Adventists Answer Questions on Doctrine is back in print. Andrews University Press, part of the church-owned university and seminary in Berrien Springs, Michigan, recently released the 597-page, annotated edition of the book.

tall73 said:
, or stand behind? How instructive that I didn't use a book which was accused of misrepresenting the Adventist position?

The reader may indeed wonder who is interested in giving full disclosure here Bob.

It looks like you are claiming that by deliberately not quoting many of the same answers I have given here - also found in QoD from 1957 -- you are doing your readers "a favor". By asking questions answered by the same "answers" published over 50 years ago AND REPUBLISHED in 2003 -- then claiming the book was never republished.

How "instructive" for the unbiased objective readers.

tall73 said:
And in this case, Questions on Doctrine certainly softened things compared to the official Adventist site, which is also published by the church,

Which just had a flaw corrected in a tiny segment of the web page you have been talking about.

tall73 said:
but which they are standing behind. And the website actually accurately states the position of Ellen White.

Not according to them... which is why they corrected it.

tall73 said:
Once again, Bob edits things to confuse. In this case, he adds words to what Ellen White said.

Your own quote shows Ellen White making the statement that Satan is responsible for his role in tempting others to sin.

“As the cross of Calvary, with its infinite sacrifice for the sins of men, was revealed, they saw that nothing but the merits of Christ could suffice to atone for their transgressions; this alone could reconcile man to God. With faith and humility they accepted the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world. Through the blood of Jesus they had “remission of sins that are past.” {GC 461.1}

"(Satan) must suffer for all the evil that he has done and be punished for the sins that he has caused to be committed. GC 660.2

tall73 said:
I quoted Ellen White's statements

Including that one... Which you now wish to back pedal on???

" deprived of his power and left to contemplate the part which he has acted since first he rebelled against the government of heaven, and to look forward with trembling and terror to the dreadful future when he must suffer for all the evil that he has done and be punished for the sins that he has caused to be committed" GC 660.2

tall73 said:
Bob cuts off my statement, and posts his own copy of three types...but he adds words to the second type.

Let's read it again... s-l-o-w-l-y

" deprived of his power and left to contemplate the part which he has acted since first he rebelled against the government of heaven, and to look forward with trembling and terror to the dreadful future when he must suffer for all the evil that he has done and be punished for the sins that he has caused to be committed" GC 660.2

==============

AM I the only one who noticed? No in fact you pointed out that same thing in your own post -- that you now wish to retract??

tall73 said:

Great Controversy
Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived.

Nice of you to point that out

BobRyan said:
I bet I get to point this out a few dozen times -- as you continue to ignore this detail in your own posts.

tall73 · May 30, 2024

tall73 said:

The "one" that is the title of the thread is a quote from the website, and combines elements of multiple statements from Ellen White.

Rather, you pick out parts of statements you think you can defend while ignoring other parts.

BobRyan said:
The quote on the GC website about the scapegoat was misleading to non-SDA readers, it has been corrected.

Diplomatically stated Bob! They now quote different portions of Ellen White's statements, which de-emphasize her point about satan bearing the sins of the righteous, so it is more palatable to outsiders.

Very much like the authors of Questions on Doctrine when trying to make it more palatable to the evangelicals who were evaluating whether Adventists were a cult--with one of the concerns being the scapegoat teaching, and its relation to atonement.

tall73 said:

Ellen White says again and again that satan is the scapegoat. And Bob agrees.

Bob, why is Ellen White telling these believers to pray much that THEIR SINS may be confessed on the head of satan?

BobRyan said:
Satan bears responsibility for his work in tempting the saints (those not of his kingdom) to sin. As has been repeatedly pointed out.

The quote does not say

"tell them to pray much that the role satan played in tempting you would be placed on the head of satan"

That would be silly, because it would already on his head, because tempting is his sin.

What it does say is :

Lt 8, 1850

Much love to your dear father and to your sisters and brother. Tell them to be faithful to serve God. I have often prayed for them. Tell them to pray much that their sins may be confessed upon the head of the scape goat and borne away into the land of forgetfulness.

It says their sins will be placed on the head of the scapegoat--not his role in tempting them to sin.

And, Ellen white explains further what she sees happening in Patriarchs and Prophets:

Patriarchs and Prophets:

And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: and the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities into a land not inhabited." Not until the goat had been thus sent away did the people regard themselves as freed from the burden of their sins. Every man was to afflict his soul while the work of atonement was going forward.

She says the people did not feel themselves freed from the burden of THEIR SINS until the scapegoat was sent away.

And she says

Tell them to pray much that their sins may be confessed upon the head of the scape goat and borne away into the land of forgetfulness.

I can certainly see why they wouldn't put THOSE quotes on the website!

Or the others that reference him bearing all the sins of :

"the sins of the truly penitent"

-"the sins of His people"

-"the sins of all who come to Jesus"

-"the sins of the redeemed host"

-"the sins of those who are redeemed by the blood of Christ, and overcome"

tall73 · May 30, 2024

tall73 said:

- AND the bank robbery conducted by some of his former associates that he did not cause.

BobRyan said:
hmm -- time for us to quote your own post - refuting what you just speculated

Of course you quote only from the part of EGW which I cited that you wish to quote, and do not post the rest. Because she says he also bears the sins of the righteous.

And Ellen White says that in many ways, for any who are reading her statements, instead of just the few lines that Bob wants to quote.

Great Controversy.

When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty.

Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 16 (1901) Ms 194, 1901

Satan is a diligent student of the Scriptures. He understands what is symbolized by the Jewish service. He sees that the day of atonement has a bearing on his life; that the scapegoat chosen to bear the sins of the people represents himself; that he must bear the sins of all who come to Jesus; and that those who continue in transgression must bear their own sins.

Spiritual Gifts Volume 1:

They must prevent all they could from receiving salvation purchased for them by Jesus. By so doing Satan could still work against the government of God. Also it would be for his own interest to keep from Jesus all he could. For the sins of those who are redeemed by the blood of Christ, and overcome, at last will be rolled back upon the originator of sin, the Devil, and he will have to bear their sins, while those who do not accept salvation through Jesus will bear their own sins.

Early Writings:

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!"

She says he bears the sins of God's people.

You have still not even tried to explain what James says in light of your comments. satan did not tempt you to do every sin you committed Bob:

James 1:14-15

14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. (NKJV)

People are tempted by their own desires per James. They have their own sin. satan did not tempt people to do every sin they committed. But Ellen White has satan bearing the sins of God's people.

BobRyan said:
nice of you to point that out., If only you would remember what you post - each time you post.

I do Bob. I remember I posted all those comments, AND The ones you want people to forget, which list additional things, like satan having to pay for all the sins of the righteous.

And Ellen White says in Patriarchs and Prophets:

Not until the goat had been thus sent away did the people regard themselves as freed from the burden of their sins. Every man was to afflict his soul while the work of atonement was going forward.

She says the people did not feel themselves freed from the burden of THEIR SINS until the scapegoat was sent away.

tall73 · May 30, 2024

BobRyan said:
That is "The book" written for the public and also written specifically to address a key non-SDA scholarly review of our doctrines related to the Dan 7 Investigative judgment. (far from an easy-to-dismiss) detail.

No one is dismissing that this was written by denominational leaders to give a defense of Adventist teaching, particularly in the context of evangelicals evaluating whether the church is a cult. And one of the issues the particular evangelicals expressed considerable concern about was the atonement, and the scapegoat.

The problem is on a number of aspects the book did not deal with all of the Ellen White Statements.

And as the denominational sources I quoted note it is in fact an extremely controversial book, because many thought it did not properly represent Adventist teaching. Hence the following quote, not from me, but from Andrews university:

Question on Doctrines 50th Anniversary Conference (QOD) | Seventh-day Adventist Theological Seminary | Andrews University

digitalcommons.andrews.edu

No other book has aroused so much controversy in the history of the Seventh-day Adventist Church as Seventh-day Adventists Answer Questions on Doctrine. Published in 1957 as a direct result of the dialogues between evangelicals Walter Martin and Donald Grey Barnhouse and a select group of Adventist leaders, Questions on Doctrine was hailed initially as the apology par excellence of Adventism by its writers and promoters. However, when the book came out, it created great uproar among Adventists who questioned whether it accurately represented Adventist theology and the writings of Ellen White, in particular.

BobRyan said:
Even you admit the denomination published the book - your only remaining complaint is that they did not re-publish what they already published?? seriously??

By that logic the website you just had to have them edit because it summarized the portions of Ellen White's statements that you don't care for was also published once, so it should be fine right?

But of course, the failure to re-publish Questions on Doctrine was an issue because the book was written as assurance to the evangelicals evaluating the church,. and their failure to stand behind it, and the controversy surrounding it, divisive movements the publishing started, etc. was seen as evidence that it was not actually representative of church teaching.

BobRyan said:
In fact it WAS republished -

Yes, 40 years later, with historical notes, to explain its highly divisive role in Adventist history.

But not when Evangelicals called on the church to republish it:

World Church: "Questions on Doctrine" Book Annotated, Republished

After a 40-year hiatus, the book "Seventh-day Adventists Answer Questions on Doctrine" is back in print.

adventist.news

Three years before his death in 1989, Walter Martin, in an interview, cautioned Adventist leaders that QOD should return to the shelves

But they did not do so, because the book was highly divisive.

concretecamper · May 30, 2024

tall73 said:
This thread will be testing by Scripture this Seventh-day Adventist teaching that Satan will bear the sins of the righteous.

Haha

tall73 · May 30, 2024

BobRyan said:
Your own quote shows Ellen White making the statement that Satan is responsible for his role in tempting others to sin.

Of course. And she also says he has all the sins of God's people on him, in addition to that:

Great Controversy.

When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty.

Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 16 (1901) Ms 194, 1901

Satan is a diligent student of the Scriptures. He understands what is symbolized by the Jewish service. He sees that the day of atonement has a bearing on his life; that the scapegoat chosen to bear the sins of the people represents himself; that he must bear the sins of all who come to Jesus; and that those who continue in transgression must bear their own sins.

Spiritual Gifts Volume 1:

They must prevent all they could from receiving salvation purchased for them by Jesus. By so doing Satan could still work against the government of God. Also it would be for his own interest to keep from Jesus all he could. For the sins of those who are redeemed by the blood of Christ, and overcome, at last will be rolled back upon the originator of sin, the Devil, and he will have to bear their sins, while those who do not accept salvation through Jesus will bear their own sins.

Early Writings:

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused.Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!"

Lt 8, 1850

Much love to your dear father and to your sisters and brother. Tell them to be faithful to serve God. I have often prayed for them. Tell them to pray much that their sins may be confessed upon the head of the scape goat and borne away into the land of forgetfulness.

It says their sins will be placed on the head of the scapegoat--not his role in tempting them to sin.

And, Ellen white explains further what she sees happening:

Patriarchs and Prophets:

And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: and the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities into a land not inhabited." Not until the goat had been thus sent away did the people regard themselves as freed from the burden of their sins. Every man was to afflict his soul while the work of atonement was going forward.

She says the people did not feel themselves freed from the burden of THEIR SINS until the scapegoat was sent away.

BobRyan · Jun 20, 2024

tall73 said:
Of course. And she also says he has all the sins of God's people on him, in addition to that:

Great Controversy.

When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty.

Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 16 (1901) Ms 194, 1901

Satan is a diligent student of the Scriptures. He understands what is symbolized by the Jewish service. He sees that the day of atonement has a bearing on his life; that the scapegoat chosen to bear the sins of the people represents himself; that he must bear the sins of all who come to Jesus; and that those who continue in transgression must bear their own sins.

Spiritual Gifts Volume 1:

They must prevent all they could from receiving salvation purchased for them by Jesus. By so doing Satan could still work against the government of God. Also it would be for his own interest to keep from Jesus all he could. For the sins of those who are redeemed by the blood of Christ, and overcome, at last will be rolled back upon the originator of sin, the Devil, and he will have to bear their sins, while those who do not accept salvation through Jesus will bear their own sins.

Early Writings:

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused.Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!"

Lt 8, 1850

Much love to your dear father and to your sisters and brother. Tell them to be faithful to serve God. I have often prayed for them. Tell them to pray much that their sins may be confessed upon the head of the scape goat and borne away into the land of forgetfulness.

It says their sins will be placed on the head of the scapegoat--not his role in tempting them to sin.

And, Ellen white explains further what she sees happening:

Patriarchs and Prophets:

And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: and the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities into a land not inhabited." Not until the goat had been thus sent away did the people regard themselves as freed from the burden of their sins. Every man was to afflict his soul while the work of atonement was going forward.

She says the people did not feel themselves freed from the burden of THEIR SINS until the scapegoat was sent away.

My interest in explaining everything Ellen White ever wrote to you - -- is rather limited since you tend to avoid context, and leap from one false claim to another misleading quote when I point out your errors. etc..

I have an entire thread on the official doctrine of the SDA denomination on Atonement and on the scapegoat. As Ellen White admits - Moses and Elijah stand in glory with Christ , fully forgiven in Matt 17 - even before the cross.

Gal 1:6-9 says there is only one Gospel

Gal 3:8 says that the one and only Gospel was preached to Abraham

tall73 · Jun 20, 2024

BobRyan said:
My interest in explaining everything Ellen White ever wrote to you - -- is rather limited since you tend to avoid context, and leap from one false claim to another misleading quote when I point out your errors. etc..

The claim has stayed the same. She says the sins of the righteous are placed on satan. I have linked to the sources early in the thread, encouraging people to read the context. It is up to you if you wish to explain. But so far you have pointed to parts of them that refer to satan's own responsibility--which we agree he has. And you have not explained the repeated statements about the sins of the righteous.

Here are the quotes again:

Great Controversy.

When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty.

Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 16 (1901) Ms 194, 1901

Satan is a diligent student of the Scriptures. He understands what is symbolized by the Jewish service. He sees that the day of atonement has a bearing on his life; that the scapegoat chosen to bear the sins of the people represents himself; that he must bear the sins of all who come to Jesus; and that those who continue in transgression must bear their own sins.

Spiritual Gifts Volume 1:

They must prevent all they could from receiving salvation purchased for them by Jesus. By so doing Satan could still work against the government of God. Also it would be for his own interest to keep from Jesus all he could. For the sins of those who are redeemed by the blood of Christ, and overcome, at last will be rolled back upon the originator of sin, the Devil, and he will have to bear their sins, while those who do not accept salvation through Jesus will bear their own sins.

Early Writings:

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused.Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!"

Lt 8, 1850

Much love to your dear father and to your sisters and brother. Tell them to be faithful to serve God. I have often prayed for them. Tell them to pray much that their sins may be confessed upon the head of the scape goat and borne away into the land of forgetfulness.

It says their sins will be placed on the head of the scapegoat--not his role in tempting them to sin.

And, Ellen White explains further what she sees happening:

Patriarchs and Prophets:

And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: and the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities into a land not inhabited." Not until the goat had been thus sent away did the people regard themselves as freed from the burden of their sins. Every man was to afflict his soul while the work of atonement was going forward.

She says the people did not feel themselves freed from the burden of THEIR SINS until the scapegoat was sent away.

9Rock9 · Jun 26, 2024

tall73 said:
This thread will be testing by Scripture this Seventh-day Adventist teaching that Satan will bear the sins of the righteous.

This teaching is succinctly stated in the Adventist.org website article "What Adventists Believe About Christ’s Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary" elaborating on Fundamental Belief #24. This is the official site of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

What Is Christ’s Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary?

Jesus serves as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary, interceding for us with mercy and justice. The Bible gives us a glimpse of that sacred work.

www.adventist.org

View attachment 346724

EDIT: As a result of this thread, and one of the SDA participants reaching out, the official Seventh-day Adventist website was changed! It now refers to other Ellen White statements which are softer, and more palatable to non-Adventists. It still refers to the scapegoat as satan, however.

In the earthly Day of Atonement service, there was a scapegoat (Leviticus 16). This animal symbolically received the sins from the sanctuary and carried them into the wilderness.

In the final cleansing of sin from the universe, there will be a final scapegoat. Satan, the arch-deceiver, will bear the sins of the righteous. When the sanctuary in Heaven is cleansed, those sins will be transferred to Satan. www.Adventist.org (now edited)

More details on this teaching are presented by Ellen White, who's writings Adventists believe are inspired:

Great Controversy.

It was seen, also, that while the sin offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scapegoat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed. When the high priest, by virtue of the blood of the sin offering, removed the sins from the sanctuary, he placed them upon the scapegoat. When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty.

Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 16 (1901)

Satan is a diligent student of the Scriptures. He understands what is symbolized by the Jewish service. He sees that the day of atonement has a bearing on his life; that the scapegoat chosen to bear the sins of the people represents himself; that he must bear the sins of all who come to Jesus; and that those who continue in transgression must bear their own sins.

Great Controversy

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They “shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts.” Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds.” The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch—Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah.

Spiritual Gifts Volume 1:

They must prevent all they could from receiving salvation purchased for them by Jesus. By so doing Satan could still work against the government of God. Also it would be for his own interest to keep from Jesus all he could. For the sins of those who are redeemed by the blood of Christ, and overcome, at last will be rolled back upon the originator of sin, the Devil, and he will have to bear their sins, while those who do not accept salvation through Jesus will bear their own sins.

Early Writings:

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!"

1LtMs, Ms 15, 1850, par. 8

Then I saw that Jesus’ work in the sanctuary was almost finished, almost finished, and after His work there is finished He will come to the door of the tabernacle, or door of the first apartment, and confess the sins of Israel upon the head of the scape goat. Then He will put on the garments of vengeance. Then the plagues come upon the wicked, and they do not come until Jesus puts on the garments of vengeance and takes His seat upon the great white cloud. Then while the plagues are falling the scape goat is being led away. He makes a mighty struggle to escape, but he is held fast by the hand that bears him away. If he should effect his escape Israel would be destroyed (or slain). I saw that it would take time to bear him away into the land of forgetfulness after the sins were put upon his head.

Patriarchs and Prophets:

And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: and the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities into a land not inhabited." Not until the goat had been thus sent away did the people regard themselves as freed from the burden of their sins. Every man was to afflict his soul while the work of atonement was going forward.

Later in the chapter:

At the door of the tabernacle he laid his hands upon the head of the scapegoat and confessed over him "all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat." And as the goat bearing these sins was sent away, they were, with him, regarded as forever separated from the people.

later in the chapter:

Christ's work for the redemption of men and the purification of the universe from sin will be closed by the removal of sin from the heavenly sanctuary and the placing of these sins upon Satan, who will bear the final penalty.

The notion that there is still a "final penalty" that satan will bear for the sins of believers detracts from what Christ did on the cross. Christ paid in full for the sins of those who trust in Him, dying for them.

Satan will pay for his own sins, including temptation, in the lake of fire. But Jesus paid for the sins of His people.

The Scriptures indicate that Jesus died for the sins of those who have faith in Him. We have been justified by His blood:

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures

Colossians 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight.

Rom 5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Ephesians 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

I Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit

1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Moreover, Leviticus 16 indicates that atonement is made upon the scapegoat, with the sins of the people confessed over it, before it is sent out of the camp.

Leviticus 16:10 but the goat on which the lot fell for azazel shall be presented alive before the Lord to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Azazel.

Leviticus 16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over it all the iniquities of the people of Israel, and all their transgressions, all their sins. And he shall put them on the head of the goat and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who is in readiness. 22 The goat shall bear all their iniquities on itself to a remote area, and he shall let the goat go free in the wilderness.

satan has no role in atoning for the sins of God's people.

Just as the Sacrifice pointed to the work of Jesus, so the the scapegoat ritual shows Jesus, our High Priest, removing sin from the people, sending it away from the camp.

To attribute an aspect of the atonement for the sins of God's people to satan is unbiblical.

From what I understand, they don't think Satan will help you atone for sins. The point of him bearing our sins is that he is being punished for them. Scripture teaches that you are responsible for causing someone to stumble. Likewise, Satan caused humanity to stumble. He won't be punished for only his sins, but also for yours and mine.

tall73 · Jun 27, 2024

9Rock9 said:
From what I understand, they don't think Satan will help you atone for sins. The point of him bearing our sins is that he is being punished for them. Scripture teaches that you are responsible for causing someone to stumble. Likewise, Satan caused humanity to stumble. He won't be punished for only his sins, but also for yours and mine.

She said:

The people did not feel themselves freed from the burden of their sins until the scapegoat was sent away

Do you feel free from your sins because of what Jesus did, or because of what satan will do?

She said :

Tell them to pray much that their sins may be confessed upon the head of the scape goat and borne away into the land of forgetfulness.

Do you pray that your sins are confessed on the head of satan?

brakelite · Jun 27, 2024

I haven't read every page on this thread. So Bob Ryan likely has already said as much, but I'd like to say the following anyway.
The Day of Atonement, like the Passover, is a type. A feast day representing a future reality. A form of prophecy. As described in Leviticus, the Day of Atonement was a cleansing of the sanctuary. Why did it need cleansing? Because the sins of the people had been transferred to the sanctuary through the blood of the lamb, goat, heifer etc. throughout the previous year. The DoA was the final solemn feast before tabernacles which celebrated freedom. Adventist teaching is that the anti typical DoA , the cleansing of the sanctuary, began in 1844, as per Daniel 8:14.
The sequence of events is as follows...
Jesus, so far, has been ministering in the heavenly sanctuary as our High Priest for 170 years. Our sins, through the blood of the cross, are written in the books of heaven, and as our High Priest ministers, the sins of those who are judged fully penitent are removed from the books. Those believers will come up in the resurrection. They were faithful to the end.
The time will come to harvest the earth. The fruit is ripe, both good and evil. Jesus leaves the sanctuary and returns to the earth. But what happens to the sins that were removed from the sanctuary? Where do they go? Back upon Jesus? God forbid. Upon the believer? Goodness no. Who else deserves to suffer permanently for the sins of the redeemed,? Remember, Atonement has been already completed for the saved. The heavenly services of the High Priest have been completed. Judgement is finished. The sheep and goats are identified and the harvest is about to take place. Jesus returns to the earth, to take His people home.
Satan is bound by circumstances for the 1000 year millennium while the earth is otherwise empty and devoid of life. A ruined wasteland after the final wars and plagues and earthquakes and devastations. Satan and the demons are alone. They are left to contemplate the ruin for which they were ultimately responsible. This is the fulfilment of the live goat now in the wilderness. He will finally bear the responsibility for his sins in causing humanity to rebel.
I think it's a great plan. I'm not sure why people are so critical of it.

tall73 · Jun 27, 2024

brakelite said:
I haven't read every page on this thread. So Bob Ryan likely has already said as much, but I'd like to say the following anyway.

Welcome to the thread.

You can certainly add to the conversation.

brakelite said:
The Day of Atonement, like the Passover, is a type. A feast day representing a future reality. A form of prophecy. As described in Leviticus, the Day of Atonement was a cleansing of the sanctuary. Why did it need cleansing? Because the sins of the people had been transferred to the sanctuary through the blood of the lamb, goat, heifer etc. throughout the previous year.

The Day of Atonement is a type, a shadow, pointing to a greater reality, as Hebrews 10 affirms.

There are a number of things in your larger post to discuss. But I will start with the above.

Please post the text that says that the blood of offerings was the means of transferring sin.

Note, I am not disagreeing that the sanctuary needed cleansing. I am asking for your text that shows the blood transferring sin.

brakelite · Jun 28, 2024

Levit. 10:16-18 from the sacrifice to the priest through eating and through the blood. The priest then enters the sanctuary, carrying the sin with Him, just as Jesus bore our sins when He died, and carried them to the sanctuary in heaven. So transfer of sin is confirmed.
See also (Leviticus 4:30, 31; Leviticus 6:26; 10:17; Isaiah 53:1-12)

In the course of his week's service at the sanctuary the priest had eaten of many of the sin offerings, and thus carried the sins of many offerers. As he could not atone for these sins with his own life, and as he bore the sins for the avowed purpose of making atonement for them, it became necessary for him to bring a personal offering for all the sins he carried and for which he was responsible. As the sins which he carried were now his own, and as when a priest sinned, the blood was brought into the holy place, so he brought the blood into the sanctuary, an atonement for all the sins which he bore.

That transfer of sin is possible is also taught in the services on the Day of Atonement.
KJV Leviticus 16:21
21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness.
Upon the evidence here presented Adventists confidently hold that transfer of sin is a true Biblical doctrine, that it was prefigured in the sanctuary service, and that it was in actuality carried out in the life of Christ. We believe this doctrine to be vital to salvation, one of the foundation pillars in the atonement, and an essential component to the gospel.
That blood cleanses is a distinct evangelical doctrine. “The blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin” is the belief and creed of every Christian. 1 John 1:7. But does blood defile? We agree that the sanctuary needed to be cleansed. But what from? What defiled the sanctuary, and why? That sin defiles is beyond question. It defiles everything it touches.
See Matthew 15:19, 20; Ezekiel 23:37, 38; Numbers 35:33; Ezekiel 23:38; Leviticus 15:31; 16:16; Numbers 19:13,20.
What defiled the sanctuary and necessitated it's cleansing? Obviously sin, "because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel and because of their transgressions in all their sins.” Leviticus 16:16.
But the question then arises, how did it get there? The only medium through which the horns of the altar were defiled was through the blood of the sin offering. So blood not only cleanses, but also defiles, and the only reason blood can be defiled is through the sin borne by it. Blood itself has no inherent sin, but rather the life of the sinner is in the blood. The blood has value only in as much as the life within it. It is the life in the blood that makes atonement.
The priest placed blood with the tip of his finger upon the horns of the altar. Notice what Jeremiah says...
KJV Jeremiah 17:1
1 The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron, and with the point of a diamond: it is graven upon the table of their heart, and upon the horns of your altars.
The blood of the Lord's goat cleansed the sanctuary. There were no sins confessed over the goat.
One thing to be noted. Whenever the blood was not taken into the sanctuary, it was essential that the priest eat of the flesh of the sacrificial victim. For example, when a goat was offered as a sin offering, the blood of the goat was placed upon the horns of the altar but not taken inside the holy place, so the priest ate the flesh. There are many parallels with Jesus commanding His disciples to eat His flesh and drink His blood, that we are declared priests, and Jesus Himself being our High Priest attending now in the heavenly sanctuary above to cleanse the sanctuary of all the uncleanness of the children of Israel.

tall73 · Jun 28, 2024

brakelite said:
Levit. 10:16-18 from the sacrifice to the priest through eating and through the blood. The priest then enters the sanctuary, carrying the sin with Him, just as Jesus bore our sins when He died, and carried them to the sanctuary in heaven. So transfer of sin is confirmed.
See also (Leviticus 4:30, 31; Leviticus 6:26; 10:17; Isaiah 53:1-12)

In the course of his week's service at the sanctuary the priest had eaten of many of the sin offerings, and thus carried the sins of many offerers. As he could not atone for these sins with his own life, and as he bore the sins for the avowed purpose of making atonement for them, it became necessary for him to bring a personal offering for all the sins he carried and for which he was responsible. As the sins which he carried were now his own, and as when a priest sinned, the blood was brought into the holy place, so he brought the blood into the sanctuary, an atonement for all the sins which he bore.

That transfer of sin is possible is also taught in the services on the Day of Atonement.
KJV Leviticus 16:21
21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness.
Upon the evidence here presented Adventists confidently hold that transfer of sin is a true Biblical doctrine, that it was prefigured in the sanctuary service, and that it was in actuality carried out in the life of Christ. We believe this doctrine to be vital to salvation, one of the foundation pillars in the atonement, and an essential component to the gospel.
That blood cleanses is a distinct evangelical doctrine. “The blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin” is the belief and creed of every Christian. 1 John 1:7. But does blood defile? We agree that the sanctuary needed to be cleansed. But what from? What defiled the sanctuary, and why? That sin defiles is beyond question. It defiles everything it touches.
See Matthew 15:19, 20; Ezekiel 23:37, 38; Numbers 35:33; Ezekiel 23:38; Leviticus 15:31; 16:16; Numbers 19:13,20.
What defiled the sanctuary and necessitated it's cleansing? Obviously sin, "because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel and because of their transgressions in all their sins.” Leviticus 16:16.
But the question then arises, how did it get there? The only medium through which the horns of the altar were defiled was through the blood of the sin offering. So blood not only cleanses, but also defiles, and the only reason blood can be defiled is through the sin borne by it. Blood itself has no inherent sin, but rather the life of the sinner is in the blood. The blood has value only in as much as the life within it. It is the life in the blood that makes atonement.
The priest placed blood with the tip of his finger upon the horns of the altar. Notice what Jeremiah says...
KJV Jeremiah 17:1
1 The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron, and with the point of a diamond: it is graven upon the table of their heart, and upon the horns of your altars.
The blood of the Lord's goat cleansed the sanctuary. There were no sins confessed over the goat.
One thing to be noted. Whenever the blood was not taken into the sanctuary, it was essential that the priest eat of the flesh of the sacrificial victim. For example, when a goat was offered as a sin offering, the blood of the goat was placed upon the horns of the altar but not taken inside the holy place, so the priest ate the flesh. There are many parallels with Jesus commanding His disciples to eat His flesh and drink His blood, that we are declared priests, and Jesus Himself being our High Priest attending now in the heavenly sanctuary above to cleanse the sanctuary of all the uncleanness of the children of Israel.

I will respond when I have time. But due to forum rules, you may want to cite Andreasen if you are quoting him at length, to avoid any violations.

Also, you skipped a part of that section that is important, but might not actually fit well with Andreasen's overall argument. By the time he wrote this, of course, there had already been quite a few Adventist critics on the sin transfer question.

tall73 · Jun 29, 2024

In looking at your comments, the first thing to note is that you did not post a text that says the blood of the offerings was the means of transferring sin, which was the question asked:

Tall73 said:

Please post the text that says that the blood of offerings was the means of transferring sin.

Instead, you put arguments which built to this conclusion:

Brakelite said:

But the question then arises, how did it get there? The only medium through which the horns of the altar were defiled was through the blood of the sin offering.

If you had a text that stated this was the case, you would not need to infer.

It should also be acknowledged that a good deal of the material of your overall post comes from M. L. Andreasen "The Sanctuary Service", in case they want more of the context.

SDA - M L Andreasen - The Sanctuary Service (1947) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

SDA - M L Andreasen - The Sanctuary Service (1947)

archive.org

Now let's look at how you got to your conclusion:

Brakelite said:

But does blood defile? We agree that the sanctuary needed to be cleansed. But what from? What defiled the sanctuary, and why? That sin defiles is beyond question. It defiles everything it touches. See Matthew 15:19, 20; Ezekiel 23:37, 38; Numbers 35:33; Ezekiel 23:38; Leviticus 15:31; 16:16; Numbers 19:13,20. What defiled the sanctuary and necessitated it's cleansing? Obviously sin, "because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel and because of their transgressions in all their sins.” Leviticus 16:16. But the question then arises, how did it get there? The only medium through which the horns of the altar were defiled was through the blood of the sin offering.

You did not give as much of a summary of each text as Andreasen. And even he did not post the whole of each text. But some of these actually answer your question differently than your conclusion:

Numbers 35:33-34

33 So you shall not pollute the land where you are; for blood defiles the land, and no atonement can be made for the land, for the blood that is shed on it, except by the blood of him who shed it. 34 Therefore do not defile the land which you inhabit, in the midst of which I dwell; for I the LORD dwell among the children of Israel.’ ” (NKJV)

Blood shed in the land effects the whole land, including the dwelling place of the Lord. There was no need for transfer by sin offering to defile. The whole land was defiled by bloodshed. And, as the text notes, there was no sin offering for murder. The murderer was killed to set this offense right. So there is no transfer by sin offering in this case. But there is defilement of the land, and the Lord dwells in the midst of the land.

Leviticus 15:31

31 ‘Thus you shall separate the children of Israel from their uncleanness, lest they die in their uncleanness when they defile My tabernacle that is among them. (NKJV)

Failing to be cleansed at the appointed time was a sever offense because it was an affront to the sanctuary. The person was rejecting the provision for cleansing, and their impurity remained.

The children of Israel must have their uncleanness removed, or else they, by virtue of their uncleanness, will defile the tabernacle, that is among them. There is no blood of the sin offering referenced, because the defiling would happen by the presence of the unclean people themselves. Sin contaminates the land, the and everything around it, not just what it directly touches.

Num19:13 Anyone who touches a corpse, the body of a man who has died, and does not purify himself, defiles the tabernacle of the LORD; and that person shall be cut off from Israel. Because the water for impurity was not sprinkled on him, he shall be unclean; his uncleanness is still on him.

Again we see that failure to be purified resulted in the defiling of the tabernacle, with no sin offering blood needed. His uncleanness was still on him. That uncleanness defiled.

And you also, perhaps following Andreasen in the chapter, did not quote all of Leviticus 16:16:

Brakelite said:

What defiled the sanctuary and necessitated it's cleansing? Obviously sin, "because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel and because of their transgressions in all their sins.” Leviticus 16:16.

Here is what the whole verse says:

Leviticus 16:15-16

16 So he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, for all their sins; and so he shall do for the tabernacle of meeting which remains among them in the midst of their uncleanness. (NKJV)

The reason the sanctuary was defiled, in the description of the Day of Atonement service, is that it remains among them in the midst of the uncleanness of the people of Israel. Their sin and uncleanness makes everything around defiled.

There is no needed mechanism to transfer sins to the sanctuary. Sins defile by their presence. It infused the land, the camp, and the sanctuary in their midst. God lived in the middle of a sinful people. And it was only the sacrifices, which provided atonement by the shed blood, which represented the blood of Christ, that enabled them to approach a holy God.

So let's look at the overall picture. In the Adventist view of the sanctuary system, God instructs sinners to come to the sanctuary to transfer their sins to the sanctuary. The sanctuary, in this view, is a giant holding tank for sins. But this is surely all backwards. When we look at the Scriptures we see that the sanctuary was the place where a Holy God was to dwell among the Israelites. Uncleanness was to be kept from it, not invited in! And sins and impurities were to be atoned for and cleansed, not stored.

The sanctuary was a means for a holy God to live among an unholy people. Its services were put in place to remove sin and uncleanness from the people. So we constantly see warnings to keep uncleanness away, not to bring it into the sanctuary.

An example of this is the rule regarding lepers:

Num 5:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

Num 5:2 Command the children of Israel, that they put out of the camp every leper, and every one that hath an issue, and whosoever is defiled by the dead:

Num 5:3 Both male and female shall ye put out, without the camp shall ye put them; that they defile not their camps, in the midst whereof I dwell.

Num 5:4 And the children of Israel did so, and put them out without the camp: as the LORD spake unto Moses, so did the children of Israel.

As these people were unclean, they were to be kept from the camp, that they not defile the sanctuary, in the midst of the camp. Uncleanness that could be removed was to be handled at the sanctuary. Uncleanness that could not be removed was to be kept away from God's presence. Uncleanness was to be kept outside the camp, not close to where God dwelt in the midst of the people.

Lev 12:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

Lev 12:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.

Lev 12:3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.

Lev 12:4 And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled.

Uncleanness lasted for a set amount of time. During that time you could not approach the sanctuary or any holy thing. Then the person would go to the sanctuary to have it removed.

Lev 12:6 "And when the days of her purifying are completed, whether for a son or for a daughter, she shall bring to the priest at the entrance of the tent of meeting a lamb a year old for a burnt offering, and a pigeon or a turtledove for a sin offering,

Lev 12:7 and he shall offer it before the LORD and make atonement for her. Then she shall be clean from the flow of her blood. This is the law for her who bears a child, either male or female.

Where God dwelled, in the sanctuary, was a holy place. Those who were unclean were not to approach, unless it was in accord with the prescription. And when people would come to the sanctuary, when the time of their uncleaness was over, provision was made through sacrifice not to store the sin, but to remove it. Atonement was made for the unclean person.

When the people persisted in wickedness, the Lord eventually judged them, because they defiled the Lord's temple by their wickedness.

Ezekiel 5:5 "Thus says the Lord GOD, 'This is Jerusalem; I have set her at the center of the nations, with lands around her.

6 'But she has rebelled against My ordinances more wickedly than the nations and against My statutes more than the lands which surround her; for they have rejected My ordinances and have not walked in My statutes.'

7 "Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, 'Because you have more turmoil than the nations which surround you and have not walked in My statutes, nor observed My ordinances, nor observed the ordinances of the nations which surround you,'

8 therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, 'Behold, I, even I, am against you, and I will execute judgments among you in the sight of the nations.

9 'And because of all your abominations, I will do among you what I have not done, and the like of which I will never do again.

10 'Therefore, fathers will eat their sons among you, and sons will eat their fathers; for I will execute judgments on you and scatter all your remnant to every wind.

11 'So as I live,' declares the Lord GOD, 'surely, because you have defiled My sanctuary with all your detestable idols and with all your abominations, therefore I will also withdraw, and My eye will have no pity and I will not spare.

The sanctuary was the solution to the problem of sin contamination, not the vessel to hold sins. It removed sin through blood atonement. It was not the storage house for such contamination. And when the people abandoned the Lord, and defiled the temple continually, He drove them out.

tall73 · Jun 29, 2024

Brakelite said:

The only medium through which the horns of the altar were defiled was through the blood of the sin offering. So blood not only cleanses, but also defiles, and the only reason blood can be defiled is through the sin borne by it. Blood itself has no inherent sin, but rather the life of the sinner is in the blood.

and:

Levit. 10:16-18 from the sacrifice to the priest through eating and through the blood.

The text not only does NOT say that the sin is transferred to the sanctuary by the blood of the sin offering, or by the priest eating the flesh, but in fact, the text indicates that the sin offering is not defiled at all, but is most holy.

Leviticus 6:24-30

24 Also the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 25 “Speak to Aaron and to his sons, saying, ‘This is the law of the sin offering: In the place where the burnt offering is killed, the sin offering shall be killed before the LORD. It is most holy. 26 The priest who offers it for sin shall eat it. In a holy place it shall be eaten, in the court of the tabernacle of meeting. 27 Everyone who touches its flesh must be holy. And when its blood is sprinkled on any garment, you shall wash that on which it was sprinkled, in a holy place. 28 But the earthen vessel in which it is boiled shall be broken. And if it is boiled in a bronze pot, it shall be both scoured and rinsed in water. 29 All the males among the priests may eat it. It is most holy. 30 But no sin offering from which any of the blood is brought into the tabernacle of meeting, to make atonement in the holy place, shall be eaten. It shall be burned in the fire. (NKJV)

The sin offering is killed, and its blood shed, but the sin offering is NOT defiled, or bearing sin. It is MOST HOLY. It is eaten in a holy place. Everyone who touches it must be holy. When its blood is sprinkled on a garment it is cleansed in a holy place. And the work of the sin offering is not to defile, but to make atonement in the holy place.

Lev 6:30 But no sin offering shall be eaten from which any blood is brought into the tent of meeting to make atonement in the Holy Place; it shall be burned up with fire.

This statement regarding the effect of the offering for a single sin is directly parallel to the effects of the sin offering of the Day of Atonement, on a larger scale:

Sin offering:

Leviticus 6:30 But no sin offering from which any of the blood is brought into the tabernacle of meeting, to make atonement in the holy place, shall be eaten. It shall be burned in the fire. (NKJV)

Day of atonement sin offering:

Lev 16:17 No one may be in the tent of meeting from the time he enters to make atonement in the Holy Place until he comes out and has made atonement for himself and for his house and for all the assembly of Israel.

The effect was the same, making atonement in the holy place. The scale was different.

The sin offering made atonement, and forgave, rather than transferring sin closer to God's presence:

Lev 4:27 "If anyone of the common people sins unintentionally in doing any one of the things that by the LORD's commandments ought not to be done, and realizes his guilt,

Lev 4:28 or the sin which he has committed is made known to him, he shall bring for his offering a goat, a female without blemish, for his sin which he has committed.

Lev 4:29 And he shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and kill the sin offering in the place of burnt offering.

Lev 4:30 And the priest shall take some of its blood with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out all the rest of its blood at the base of the altar.

Lev 4:31 And all its fat he shall remove, as the fat is removed from the peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it on the altar for a pleasing aroma to the LORD. And the priest shall make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven.

The sin and guilt offerings were an opportunity for the individual who had sinned to experience contrition, repentence, atonement, and forgiveness, for a single sinful act. The animal died in his place. He had to lay his hand on the sin offering, showing identification with the one who would pay his penalty. He then had to personally kill the sin offering. The priest would then minister the offering and the result was that the priest made atonement for him and the person was forgiven.

Blood throughout the levitical rites is stated to cleanse:

Leviticus 17:11

11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’ (NKJV)

The blood represented the blood of Christ, and the cleansing it would bring. It did not defile, but cleanse. Hebrews reiterates this point as well:

Heb 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh,

Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

All of the sacrificial ritees are a picture of Jesus who died for us, to reconcile us to God. We are justified by His blood. His blood does not contaminate.

1Pe 1:17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear;

1Pe 1:18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your futile way of life handed down from your forefathers,

1Pe 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb blameless and spotless.

A lamb was not used in the Day of Atonement, but was the sin offering for a common person. Jesus died for our sins, but His blood is MOST HOLY, and does not defile. It is precious.

Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Rom 5:9 Much more then, having been justified now by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Having been justified now by His blood, which He shed for us.

Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace.

We have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. (NKJV)

His blood cleanses, not defiles.

tall73 · Jun 29, 2024

Brakelite said:

Notice what Jeremiah says...

KJV Jeremiah 17:1

1 The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron, and with the point of a diamond: it is graven upon the table of their heart, and upon the horns of your altars.

You did not quote the context, which shows this to be about their pagan altars which testified against them, and for which the Lord would judge them:

Jeremiah 16:16 - 17:3

16 “Behold, I will send for many fishermen,” says the LORD, “and they shall fish them; and afterward I will send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain and every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks. 17 For My eyes are on all their ways; they are not hidden from My face, nor is their iniquity hidden from My eyes. 18 And first I will repay double for their iniquity and their sin, because they have defiled My land; they have filled My inheritance with the carcasses of their detestable and abominable idols.”

19 O LORD, my strength and my fortress,

My refuge in the day of affliction,

The Gentiles shall come to You

From the ends of the earth and say,

“Surely our fathers have inherited lies,

Worthlessness and unprofitable things.”

20 Will a man make gods for himself,

Which are not gods?

21 “Therefore behold, I will this once cause them to know,

I will cause them to know

My hand and My might;

And they shall know that My name is the LORD.

Judah’s Sin and Punishment

1 “The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron;

With the point of a diamond it is engraved

On the tablet of their heart,

And on the horns of your altars,

2 While their children remember

Their altars and their wooden images

By the green trees on the high hills.

3 O My mountain in the field,

I will give as plunder your wealth, all your treasures,

And your high places of sin within all your borders. (NKJV)

They have defiled the land with their idols. The Lord knows their ways, and describes the evidence, it is written on their heart, and on the horns of their altars. The next verse speaks about the altars and wooden images by the green trees, and on the high hills.

Notice this parallel from the contemporary of Jeremiah, which similarly describes the destruction of "your altars":

Ezekiel 6:1-6

1 Now the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 2 “Son of man, set your face toward the mountains of Israel, and prophesy against them, 3 and say, ‘O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD! Thus says the Lord GOD to the mountains, to the hills, to the ravines, and to the valleys: “Indeed I, even I, will bring a sword against you, and I will destroy your high places. 4 Then your altars shall be desolate, your incense altars shall be broken, and I will cast down your slain men before your idols. 5 And I will lay the corpses of the children of Israel before their idols, and I will scatter your bones all around your altars. 6 In all your dwelling places the cities shall be laid waste, and the high places shall be desolate, so that your altars may be laid waste and made desolate, your idols may be broken and made to cease, your incense altars may be cut down, and your works may be abolished. (NKJV)

tall73 · Jun 29, 2024

Brakelite said:

Levit. 10:16-18 from the sacrifice to the priest through eating and through the blood. The priest then enters the sanctuary, carrying the sin with Him

What does the text say?

Lev 10:17 "Why have you not eaten the sin offering in the place of the sanctuary, since it is a thing most holy and has been given to you that you may bear the iniquity of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the LORD?

Lev 10:18 Behold, its blood was not brought into the inner part of the sanctuary. You certainly ought to have eaten it in the sanctuary, as I commanded."

Notice:

The sin offering is not defiled with sin but MOST HOLY
The sin offering is given to the priesthood to bear the sins of the people, to make atonement. It doesn't defile, it makes atonement.

In fact, in this passage, the reason the priest had not eaten it is that he himself was not clean, and could not then be worthy to partake of the most holy sin offering!

Lev 10:19 And Aaron said to Moses, "Behold, today they have offered their sin offering and their burnt offering before the LORD, and yet such things as these have happened to me! If I had eaten the sin offering today, would the LORD have approved?"

Lev 10:20 And when Moses heard that, he approved.

Regarding Jesus, who bore our sins:

Brakelite said:

Levit. 10:16-18 from the sacrifice to the priest through eating and through the blood. The priest then enters the sanctuary, carrying the sin with Him, just as Jesus bore our sins when He died, and carried them to the sanctuary in heaven. So transfer of sin is confirmed.

Jesus bore our sins on the cross, certainly:

1 Peter 2:24 24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed. (NKJV)

And the result of His suffering is that we are healed. The sin offering represents Him, and is Most Holy, and His blood is precious. And He did minister His blood in heaven.

But your other claim, that the risen Christ is defiled by sin, carrying it to heaven, is not supported by the text:

Hebrews 7:26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens (NKJV)

Scapegoat-Adventist website: "Satan will bear the sins of the righteous"

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