Scapegoat-Adventist website: "Satan will bear the sins of the righteous"

BobRyan · May 5, 2024

tall73 said:
And you still haven't shown any text that says someone was unclean after this.

I never said that saints turn from God after the day of atonement completes.

Are you not familiar with Adventist doctrine any more?

tall73 · May 5, 2024

BobRyan said:
I never said that saints turn from God after the day of atonement completes.

Are you not familiar with Adventist doctrine any more?

Bob, you missed the point of the statement. The high priest washes and goes right on ministering. He could not do that if he were unclean. In the various cases of uncleanness someone would have to wait to return to holy things.

Nor did it ever say he was unclean.

For instance, in the case of the red heifer, someone who washed was unclean until evening, specifically stated.

The text says when someone is unclean in all cases, because they then had to follow the prescription. And they had to keep away from holy things for some time after.

You are making a supposition about the text, that it does not say. And the evidence in the text rules it out.

And it is ironic that you say I don't remember Adventist doctrine. You have presented NO official statement that says what you are arguing here. You are misrepresenting the Adventist doctrine. I am willing to defend that Adventists do NOT say that the wicked, unrepentant, unclean muderers, adulterers, theives, slanderers, child rapists, drunkards, etc. are represented by a clean animal in the text.

That is absurd on its face. But it is what you--not the Adventist church--says.

Of course, they do say that satan is represented by a clean animal in the text. And that is clearly wrong, because at the point Jesus leaves the heavenly sanctuary satan is not at all clean, but covered in sin.

Now

a. Explain how these sinners are represented by a clean animal.

b. Present an official statement that Adventists teach what you claim. Or else, stop misrepresenting the church.

tall73 · May 5, 2024

BobRyan said:
ACTUAL official voted beliefs of the Adventists denomination (unlike the "one web page editor makes a mistake -- version)

Bob, what mistake are you claiming the editor made? He represented the Adventist view.

Of course, the Adventist view is itself a mistake, thinking that when Jesus comes out of the heavenly sanctuary satan could be represented by a clean animal.

But the editor stated the view expressed by Ellen White:

www.adventist.org

In the final cleansing of sin from the universe, there will be a final scapegoat. Satan, the arch-deceiver, will bear the sins of the righteous. When the sanctuary in Heaven is cleansed, those sins will be transferred to Satan.

Great Controversy.

It was seen, also, that while the sin offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scapegoat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed.

When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty.

Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds.” The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit.

Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 16 (1901)

Satan is a diligent student of the Scriptures. He understands what is symbolized by the Jewish service. He sees that the day of atonement has a bearing on his life; that the scapegoat chosen to bear the sins of the people represents himself; that he must bear the sins of all who come to Jesus; and that those who continue in transgression must bear their own sins.

Spiritual Gifts Volume 1:

They must prevent all they could from receiving salvation purchased for them by Jesus. By so doing Satan could still work against the government of God. Also it would be for his own interest to keep from Jesus all he could. For the sins of those who are redeemed by the blood of Christ, and overcome, at last will be rolled back upon the originator of sin, the Devil, and he will have to bear their sins, while those who do not accept salvation through Jesus will bear their own sins.

Early Writings:

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!"

BobRyan · May 6, 2024

tall73 said:
Bob, what mistake are you claiming the editor made? He represented the Adventist view.

No he did not -- as all my posts show - "Christ's blood alone can atone for sin" and our Fundamental Beliefs affirm this point --

The web page editor mistaken lifted a few words out of context and spun the statement on its head in the setting he/she gave it.

tall73 said:
Of course, the Adventist view is itself a mistake

not true.

You have been arguing for a non-Adventist view "being wrong" since page 1 -- meanwhile the published Adventist view is given by me -- on page one of your own thread.

BobRyan said:
There is not one SDA fundamental belief that says the Satan is a sin offering paying the debt of sin for anyone but himself. (As all who are SDAs already know - but it may come as a surprise to those reading snip-quotes from your op).

tall73 said:

This thread will be testing by Scripture this Seventh-day Adventist teaching that Satan will bear the sins of the righteous.

Click to expand...

There is not one SDA fundamental belief that says the Satan is a sin offering paying the debt of sin for anyone but himself. (As all who are SDAs already know - but it may come as a surprise to those reading snip-quotes from your op).

We do not claim that Satan is a sin offering at all and most certainly that he makes no atoning sacrifice for anyone not the saints and not the wicked.

ACTUAL official voted beliefs of the Adventists denomination (unlike the "one web page editor makes a mistake -- version)

Belief 10 does say this --
In Christ's life of perfect obedience to God's will, His suffering, death, and resurrection, God provided the only means of atonement for human sin, so that those who by faith accept this atonement may have eternal life, and the whole creation may better understand the infinite and holy love of the Creator. This perfect atonement vindicates the righteousness of God's law and the graciousness of His character; for it both condemns our sin and provides for our forgiveness. The death of Christ is substitutionary and expiatory, reconciling and transforming. The resurrection of Christ proclaims God's triumph over the forces of evil, and for those who accept the atonement assures their final victory over sin and death. It declares the Lordship of Jesus Christ, before whom every knee in heaven and on earth will bow. (John 3:16; Isa. 53; 1 Peter 2:21, 22; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4, 20-22; 2 Cor. 5:14, 15, 19-21; Rom. 1:4; 3:25; 4:25; 8:3, 4; 1 John 2:2; 4:10; Col. 2:15; Phil. 2:6-11.)
Belief 4 says this

Belief 4. Son:
God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly man, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God's power and was attested as God's promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things. (John 1:1-3, 14; Col. 1:15-19; John 10:30; 14:9; Rom. 6:23; 2 Cor. 5:17-19; John 5:22; Luke 1:35; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:9-18; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; Heb. 8:1, 2; John 14:1-3.)

“As the cross of Calvary, with its infinite sacrifice for the sins of men, was revealed, they saw that nothing but the merits of Christ could suffice to atone for their transgressions; this alone could reconcile man to God. With faith and humility they accepted the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world. Through the blood of Jesus they had “remission of sins that are past.” {GC 461.1}

"(Satan) must suffer for all the evil that he has done and be punished for the sins that he has caused to be committed. GC 660.2

The mastermind that organizes the story robber and also his team of robbers -- must all be punished for the part they play in the crime. This is no different. One does not expiate punishment for another. Obviously
===================================
The scapegoat work in Lev 16 happens ONLY after atonement is COMPLETED via the "atoning sacrifice" of the "goat of the sin offering"

20 “When he finishes atoning for the Holy Place and the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall offer the live goat.

which is why it says "when he finishes"

"16 He shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the impurities of the sons of Israel and because of their unlawful acts regarding all their sins; and he shall do so for the tent of meeting which remains with them in the midst of their impurities. 17 When he goes in to make atonement in the Holy Place, no one shall be in the tent of meeting until he comes out.

So that he may make atonement for himself and for his household, and for all the assembly of Israel."

which does not include any "sin offering" work done by the scapegoat, since it never does anything as "sin offering" once it is selected.

All verses after vs 20 only deals with the "sin offering" of vs 11-15 - being consumed in fire - reminding us that it is offered up in smoke OUTSIDE the sanctuary AFTER atonement is completed in vs 20, and after the high priest removes His high priestly vestments..

Heb 9 "without the shedding of blood - no forgiveness of sins"

The "non-sin-offfering" part of the service has no subtitutionary atonement value because that part is not "an atoning sacrifice" - but it does complete the larger view of atonement - which includes the wicked that die without providing any atoning sacrifice - burnt offering benefit. They merely show how all sin is accounted for and the books of Rev 20 (and Dan 7) are then fully resolved. (The very Bible doctrine you claim to reject).
==================================

============================

tall73 said:

In the earthly Day of Atonement service, there was a scapegoat (Leviticus 16). This animal symbolically received the sins from the sanctuary and carried them into the wilderness.

Click to expand...

IN SDA doctrine those are rejected sins - which means it is those sins that someone asks for Christ's blood to cover - but are not covered by the atoning sacrifice of Christ because the person is not a true Christian and of course "God is not mocked". Matt 7 depicts the cases of those who say to Christ "Lord Lord" but in fact are not born-again Christians.

So then those sins are returned back out of that sanctuary event -- back to the wicked who then pay their own debt for their own sins. Not as a "sin offering" but as a guilty sinner. Since the judgment has identified who is a child of God and who is not.

Which means that even Satan's own guilt for his own sin of tempting someone who is in God's kingdom and not at all one of his own loyal subjects - is a greater debt owed by Satan than merely tempting one of his own followers that chose him over Christ.

All of which would come as somewhat of a surprise to anyone reading your snip results offering a partial presentation for the benefit of those who don't have the background material.

==========================
Without the shedding of blood NO forgiveness of sin Heb 9
In Lev - ALL sin offerings require death of the atoning sacrifice "the goat of the sin offering" in vs 15

By contrast to that sin offering:
The scapegoat is NEVER called "the atoning sacrifice" or "THE sin offering" or called "A sin offering" in all of scripture

Lev 16: 10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the ahazel (or Azazel), shall be presented alive before Avinu, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a ahazel (or Azazel) into the wilderness.

from: Azazel - Wikipedia

In the Bible, the name Azazel (/əˈzeɪzəl, ˈæzəˌzɛl/; Hebrew: עֲזָאזֵל‎ ʿAzāʾzēl; Arabic: عزازيل‎, romanized: ʿAzāzīl) appears in association with the scapegoat rite; the name represents a desolate place where a scapegoat bearing the sins of the Jews during Yom Kippur was sent. During the end of the Second Temple period, his association as a fallen angel responsible for introducing humans to forbidden knowledge emerged due to Hellenization, Christian narrative, and interpretation exemplified in the Book of Enoch. His role as a fallen angel partly remains in Christian and Islamic traditions.

NET Bible translation - foot notes Leviticus 16
look up the verse in the NET and here is the footnote for the word "Azazel":

(3) The most common view among scholars today is that it is the proper name of a particular demon (perhaps even the Devil himself) associated with the wilderness desert regions. Levine has proposed that it may perhaps derive from a reduplication of the ז (zayin) in עֵז combined with אֵל (’el, “mighty”), meaning “mighty goat.” The final consonantal form of עֲזָאזֵל would have resulted from the inversion of the א (aleph) with the second ז. He makes the point that the close association between עֵז and שְׂעִירִים (shя’irim), which seems to refer to “goat-demons” of the desert in Lev 17:7 (cf. Isa 13:21, etc.), should not be ignored in the derivation of Azazel, although the term ultimately became the name of “the demonic ruler of the wilderness.” The latter view is supported by the parallel between the one goat “for (לְ, lamed preposition) the Lord” and the one “for (לְ) Azazel” here in v. 8. The rendering as a proper name has been tentatively accepted here (cf. ASV, NAB, NRSV, TEV, CEV). Perhaps a play on words between the proper name and the term for “goat” has occurred so that the etymology has become obscure. Even if a demon or the demonic realm is the source for the name, however, there is no intention here of appeasing the demons. The goal is to remove the impurity and iniquity from the community in order to avoid offending the Lord and the repercussions of such (see esp. vv. 21-22 and cf. Lev 15:31).

By contrast to that scapegoat demon/fallen-angel -

"Repentance, confession, and restitution are all required. But these cannot atone for the sin; for God has been wronged in the person of His saints. The Lord Jesus alone is able to atone for sin, by the application of His blood, shed for the guilt of the sinner. His blood cleanses from all sin. 17LtMs, Ms 47, 1902, par. 12 “Lessons From the Eighteenth of Matthew.” UL 106.6

"The blood of Christ was shed to atone for sin and to cleanse the sinner; and we must take hold of the merits of Christ's blood, and believe that we have life through his name". ST March 24, 1890, par. 1

"The blood of Jesus Christ alone can atone for our transgressions. We must claim His righteousness by living faith, and depend on Him and abide in Him alone. We are always to feel our continual dependence upon God. This will scatter our self-sufficiency, our pride and vanity, to the winds." 1888 364.1

And of course as we see in Heb 9 "without the shedding of blood there is NO forgiveness of sin" --
In Lev 16 ALL sin offerings are a burnt offering - they are all slain.

BobRyan said:

So we know that Christ was perfect and sinless, and Ezek 28 says even Lucifer was created perfect and sinless - yet you are confused that both start as without spot in Lev 16. Figuring that easy one out is left as an exercise for the reader.

In Rom 3 we find that God is BOTH just and merciful in His solution to the sin problem.
In the Lev 16 solution to sin "Day of Atonement" we find BOTH justice and mercy.

Where sin is punished in full BOTH in the case of the wicked and in the case of the saints and we find that the camp of the saints is purified with all sin removed. Which includes the false claims of the wicked returned upon their own heads and as Dan 7 points out "judgment is passed in favor of the saints". The wicked removed and the saints singled out and blessed as Romans 2 predicts.

BobRyan · May 6, 2024

tall73 said:
a. Explain how these sinners are represented by a clean animal.

Read -- Ezek 28 where "satan was created perfect and was in that state until he chose to sin" turn out humanity had that same start point.
I guess we all knew that - but you insist on climbing out on a limb.

Maybe you need Ezek 28 quoted for you on your own thread - to help you see the Adventist position on the sinless origin of Lucifer -- . I am happy to do it.

“You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14 You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;

tall73 said:
b. Present an official statement that Adventists teach what you claim. Or else, stop misrepresenting the church.

start by reading page 1 of your own thread where I post the published Adventist position you are so anxious not to acknowledge.

BobRyan said:
There is not one SDA fundamental belief that says the Satan is a sin offering paying the debt of sin for anyone but himself. (As all who are SDAs already know - but it may come as a surprise to those reading snip-quotes from your op).

tall73 said:

This thread will be testing by Scripture this Seventh-day Adventist teaching that Satan will bear the sins of the righteous.

Click to expand...

There is not one SDA fundamental belief that says the Satan is a sin offering paying the debt of sin for anyone but himself. (As all who are SDAs already know - but it may come as a surprise to those reading snip-quotes from your op).

We do not claim that Satan is a sin offering at all and most certainly that he makes no atoning sacrifice for anyone not the saints and not the wicked.

ACTUAL official voted beliefs of the Adventists denomination (unlike the "one web page editor makes a mistake -- version)

Belief 10 does say this --
In Christ's life of perfect obedience to God's will, His suffering, death, and resurrection, God provided the only means of atonement for human sin, so that those who by faith accept this atonement may have eternal life, and the whole creation may better understand the infinite and holy love of the Creator. This perfect atonement vindicates the righteousness of God's law and the graciousness of His character; for it both condemns our sin and provides for our forgiveness. The death of Christ is substitutionary and expiatory, reconciling and transforming. The resurrection of Christ proclaims God's triumph over the forces of evil, and for those who accept the atonement assures their final victory over sin and death. It declares the Lordship of Jesus Christ, before whom every knee in heaven and on earth will bow. (John 3:16; Isa. 53; 1 Peter 2:21, 22; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4, 20-22; 2 Cor. 5:14, 15, 19-21; Rom. 1:4; 3:25; 4:25; 8:3, 4; 1 John 2:2; 4:10; Col. 2:15; Phil. 2:6-11.)
Belief 4 says this

Belief 4. Son:
God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly man, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God's power and was attested as God's promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things. (John 1:1-3, 14; Col. 1:15-19; John 10:30; 14:9; Rom. 6:23; 2 Cor. 5:17-19; John 5:22; Luke 1:35; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:9-18; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; Heb. 8:1, 2; John 14:1-3.)

“As the cross of Calvary, with its infinite sacrifice for the sins of men, was revealed, they saw that nothing but the merits of Christ could suffice to atone for their transgressions; this alone could reconcile man to God. With faith and humility they accepted the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world. Through the blood of Jesus they had “remission of sins that are past.” {GC 461.1}

"(Satan) must suffer for all the evil that he has done and be punished for the sins that he has caused to be committed. GC 660.2

The mastermind that organizes the story robber and also his team of robbers -- must all be punished for the part they play in the crime. This is no different. One does not expiate punishment for another. Obviously
===================================
The scapegoat work in Lev 16 happens ONLY after atonement is COMPLETED via the "atoning sacrifice" of the "goat of the sin offering"

20 “When he finishes atoning for the Holy Place and the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall offer the live goat.

which is why it says "when he finishes"

"16 He shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the impurities of the sons of Israel and because of their unlawful acts regarding all their sins; and he shall do so for the tent of meeting which remains with them in the midst of their impurities. 17 When he goes in to make atonement in the Holy Place, no one shall be in the tent of meeting until he comes out.

So that he may make atonement for himself and for his household, and for all the assembly of Israel."

which does not include any "sin offering" work done by the scapegoat, since it never does anything as "sin offering" once it is selected.

All verses after vs 20 only deals with the "sin offering" of vs 11-15 - being consumed in fire - reminding us that it is offered up in smoke OUTSIDE the sanctuary AFTER atonement is completed in vs 20, and after the high priest removes His high priestly vestments..

Heb 9 "without the shedding of blood - no forgiveness of sins"

The "non-sin-offfering" part of the service has no subtitutionary atonement value because that part is not "an atoning sacrifice" - but it does complete the larger view of atonement - which includes the wicked that die without providing any atoning sacrifice - burnt offering benefit. They merely show how all sin is accounted for and the books of Rev 20 (and Dan 7) are then fully resolved. (The very Bible doctrine you claim to reject).

============================

tall73 said:

In the earthly Day of Atonement service, there was a scapegoat (Leviticus 16). This animal symbolically received the sins from the sanctuary and carried them into the wilderness.

Click to expand...

IN SDA doctrine those are rejected sins - which means it is those sins that someone asks for Christ's blood to cover - but are not covered by the atoning sacrifice of Christ because the person is not a true Christian and of course "God is not mocked". Matt 7 depicts the cases of those who say to Christ "Lord Lord" but in fact are not born-again Christians.

So then those sins are returned back out of that sanctuary event -- back to the wicked who then pay their own debt for their own sins. Not as a "sin offering" but as a guilty sinner. Since the judgment has identified who is a child of God and who is not.

Which means that even Satan's own guilt for his own sin of tempting someone who is in God's kingdom and not at all one of his own loyal subjects - is a greater debt owed by Satan than merely tempting one of his own followers that chose him over Christ.

All of which would come as somewhat of a surprise to anyone reading your snip results offering a partial presentation for the benefit of those who don't have the background material.

==========================
Without the shedding of blood NO forgiveness of sin Heb 9
In Lev - ALL sin offerings require death of the atoning sacrifice "the goat of the sin offering" in vs 15

By contrast to that sin offering:
The scapegoat is NEVER called "the atoning sacrifice" or "THE sin offering" or called "A sin offering" in all of scripture

Lev 16: 10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the ahazel (or Azazel), shall be presented alive before Avinu, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a ahazel (or Azazel) into the wilderness.

from: Azazel - Wikipedia

In the Bible, the name Azazel (/əˈzeɪzəl, ˈæzəˌzɛl/; Hebrew: עֲזָאזֵל‎ ʿAzāʾzēl; Arabic: عزازيل‎, romanized: ʿAzāzīl) appears in association with the scapegoat rite; the name represents a desolate place where a scapegoat bearing the sins of the Jews during Yom Kippur was sent. During the end of the Second Temple period, his association as a fallen angel responsible for introducing humans to forbidden knowledge emerged due to Hellenization, Christian narrative, and interpretation exemplified in the Book of Enoch. His role as a fallen angel partly remains in Christian and Islamic traditions.

NET Bible translation - foot notes Leviticus 16
look up the verse in the NET and here is the footnote for the word "Azazel":

(3) The most common view among scholars today is that it is the proper name of a particular demon (perhaps even the Devil himself) associated with the wilderness desert regions. Levine has proposed that it may perhaps derive from a reduplication of the ז (zayin) in עֵז combined with אֵל (’el, “mighty”), meaning “mighty goat.” The final consonantal form of עֲזָאזֵל would have resulted from the inversion of the א (aleph) with the second ז. He makes the point that the close association between עֵז and שְׂעִירִים (shя’irim), which seems to refer to “goat-demons” of the desert in Lev 17:7 (cf. Isa 13:21, etc.), should not be ignored in the derivation of Azazel, although the term ultimately became the name of “the demonic ruler of the wilderness.” The latter view is supported by the parallel between the one goat “for (לְ, lamed preposition) the Lord” and the one “for (לְ) Azazel” here in v. 8. The rendering as a proper name has been tentatively accepted here (cf. ASV, NAB, NRSV, TEV, CEV). Perhaps a play on words between the proper name and the term for “goat” has occurred so that the etymology has become obscure. Even if a demon or the demonic realm is the source for the name, however, there is no intention here of appeasing the demons. The goal is to remove the impurity and iniquity from the community in order to avoid offending the Lord and the repercussions of such (see esp. vv. 21-22 and cf. Lev 15:31).

By contrast to that scapegoat demon/fallen-angel -

"Repentance, confession, and restitution are all required. But these cannot atone for the sin; for God has been wronged in the person of His saints. The Lord Jesus alone is able to atone for sin, by the application of His blood, shed for the guilt of the sinner. His blood cleanses from all sin. 17LtMs, Ms 47, 1902, par. 12 “Lessons From the Eighteenth of Matthew.” UL 106.6

"The blood of Christ was shed to atone for sin and to cleanse the sinner; and we must take hold of the merits of Christ's blood, and believe that we have life through his name". ST March 24, 1890, par. 1

"The blood of Jesus Christ alone can atone for our transgressions. We must claim His righteousness by living faith, and depend on Him and abide in Him alone. We are always to feel our continual dependence upon God. This will scatter our self-sufficiency, our pride and vanity, to the winds." 1888 364.1

And of course as we see in Heb 9 "without the shedding of blood there is NO forgiveness of sin" --
In Lev 16 ALL sin offerings are a burnt offering - they are all slain.

BobRyan said:

So we know that Christ was perfect and sinless, and Ezek 28 says even Lucifer was created perfect and sinless - yet you are confused that both start as without spot in Lev 16. Figuring that easy one out is left as an exercise for the reader.

In Rom 3 we find that God is BOTH just and merciful in His solution to the sin problem.
In the Lev 16 solution to sin "Day of Atonement" we find BOTH justice and mercy.

Where sin is punished in full BOTH in the case of the wicked and in the case of the saints and we find that the camp of the saints is purified with all sin removed. Which includes the false claims of the wicked returned upon their own heads and as Dan 7 points out "judgment is passed in favor of the saints". The wicked removed and the saints singled out and blessed as Romans 2 predicts.

Grip Docility · May 6, 2024

Bob, I tried to explain to this kind fellow that has Satan being mankind's sin bearer that this is now officially an Adventist Heresy. , This might be a fellow of your "Sub Fold" (Sheep Humor)... that you can assist. I wanted to introduce you to him... but now you're addressing the exact Heresy that the SDA church, now, fully rejects.... I wanted to take the opportunity to connect you to this fellow.

I'm not snitching on you @guevaraj ... But Bob is a man of God that Keeps the Sabbath, like yourself. I hope discussion occurs here, because this is one of those matters that you really need to understand better. I assure you! I'm not SDA... OBVIOUSLY... but... Bob is... and Brother, he is gentle in spirit to me. He displays the Fruits of the Spirit. PLEASE speak with Him about this.

guevaraj said:
Brother, Jesus will not pay for our sins because He has done nothing wrong! It is Satan who ultimately pays for the sins of those who look to Jesus' daily, as our High Priest, to transfer their unwanted sins to Satan as the one responsible for the sins we do not want. Placing our sins on Satan has not yet occurred in the heavenly temple, although the process began in 1844 with the beginning of the judgment of "the house of God".

I watched as thrones were put in place and the Ancient One sat down to judge. His clothing was as white as snow, his hair like purest wool. He sat on a fiery throne with wheels of blazing fire, and a river of fire was pouring out, flowing from his presence. Millions of angels ministered to him; many millions stood to attend him. Then the court began its session, and the books were opened. (Daniel 7:9-10 NLT)

In the earthly temple, animal sacrifices moved the sins of the people to the temple where they were stored until the end of the year to be removed from the temple on the Day of Atonement.

“Aaron will present his own bull as a sin offering to purify himself and his family, making them right with the LORD. Then he must take the two male goats and present them to the LORD at the entrance of the Tabernacle. He is to cast sacred lots to determine which goat will be reserved as an offering to the LORD and which will carry the sins of the people to the wilderness of Azazel. Aaron will then present as a sin offering the goat chosen by lot for the LORD. The other goat, the scapegoat chosen by lot to be sent away, will be kept alive, standing before the LORD. When it is sent away to Azazel in the wilderness, the people will be purified and made right with the LORD. (Leviticus 16:6-10 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

tall73 · May 6, 2024

BobRyan said:
The web page editor mistaken lifted a few words out of context and spun the statement on its head in the setting he/she gave it.

You should probably contact the denomination. Surely they would want to know that they got their own fundamental belief explanation wrong, on their official website!

However, your objection is not very specific. We can go through a part at a time, and see what your objection really is:

www.adventist.org

In the final cleansing of sin from the universe, there will be a final scapegoat. Satan, the arch-deceiver, will bear the sins of the righteous. When the sanctuary in Heaven is cleansed, those sins will be transferred to Satan.

Let's start here:

there will be a final scapegoat. Satan,

1. Do you object to Satan being identified with the scapegoat?

Great Controversy:

It was seen, also, that while the sin offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scapegoat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed.

Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 16 (1901)

Satan is a diligent student of the Scriptures. He understands what is symbolized by the Jewish service. He sees that the day of atonement has a bearing on his life; that the scapegoat chosen to bear the sins of the people represents himself;

These Ellen White quotes seem to line up with the statement from the website, identifying satan as the scapegoat.

Are you alleging that Ellen White and the web page got that part of the view wrong?

Once you answer we can move to the next element.

tall73 · May 6, 2024

BobRyan said:
Read -- Ezek 28 where "satan was created perfect and was in that state until he chose to sin" turn out humanity had that same start point.
I guess we all knew that - but you insist on climbing out on a limb.

Maybe you need Ezek 28 quoted for you on your own thread - to help you see the Adventist position on the sinless origin of Lucifer -- . I am happy to do it.

“You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14 You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;

start by reading page 1 of your own thread where I post the published Adventist position you are so anxious not to acknowledge.

Bob, the scapegoat doesn't have sin on its own. The sins of the camp are placed on the scapegoat.

So saying that satan was created without sin doesn't cut it. The symbol shows the animal being clean when the high priest, representing Jesus, leaves the heavenly sanctuary. Then sins are confessed over it.

This is not at all describing satan.

The same problem exists for your view that it is representing the unrepentant wicked.

Neither satan, nor the unrepentant wicked, are unblemished when Jesus leaves the sanctuary. They already have their own sins.

Also, you still showed no official Adventist statement claiming that the scapegoat symbol includes the unrepentant wicked. You should post such a statement.

Grip Docility · May 6, 2024

tall73 said:
You should probably contact the denomination. Surely they would want to know that they got their own fundamental belief explanation wrong, on their official website!

But let's get a bit more specific here so you can have something certain to send them. We can take it one aspect at a time:

www.adventist.org:

there will be a final scapegoat. Satan, the arch-deceiver, will bear the sins of the righteous. When the sanctuary in Heaven is cleansed, those sins will be transferred to Satan.

1. Do you object to Satan being identified with the scapegoat?

Great Controversy:

It was seen, also, that while the sin offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scapegoat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed.

Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 16 (1901)

Satan is a diligent student of the Scriptures. He understands what is symbolized by the Jewish service. He sees that the day of atonement has a bearing on his life; that the scapegoat chosen to bear the sins of the people represents himself;

These Ellen White quotes seem to line up with the statement from the website, identifying satan as the scapegoat.

Are you alleging that Ellen White and the web page got that part of the view wrong?

Once you answer we can move to the next element.

I will be direct. The entire issue is the root of the issue. The Millerites followed William Miller. He was a Lay Baptist minister that believed that Jesus would return some time between 1843–1844. People dressed in special robes, on a specific day and awaited Rapture, with Miller. They had sold their land and all sorts of stuff. Jesus didn't return.

They retooled the Prophecy, chalked it up to mathematical errors and aimed at a new, specific day. It had become a national movement. and because of this... When Jesus didn't come again... "This was known as the Great Disappointment.

One of the disappointing dates was claimed to have been "The Doctrine of Investigative Judgment". This was the beginning of the Adventist denomination. Much, MUCH LATER..... The Adventist church actually convened a small group of Adventist Hebrew and Greek Scholars and told them, do not leave this study room, until you reconcile the Hebrew and Greek with the Doctrine of Investigative Judgment. They obviously went home and back to "work"... but you get the point.

After a Long time of convening, they were asked if the doctrine had been reconciled. The scholars, distraught, explained that not only was it impossible to bind to scripture, but that it was completely false. The man that had them convened, told them to leave and please speak nothing of the matter, as if it never happened. The church then returned to "Traditions of Doctrine" and left it at that.

Now, with the internet and access to ALL scripture and cross referencing at a snap... The Investigative Judgment Doctrine and The Desert Demon Doctrine are mostly known to be errors. Theologians like Bob, Love Jesus with all of their heart and have become part of a Messianic Jew type culture that honors Shabbat. Bob understands that he is saved by Grace Alone.

The Adventist church is afraid that if it confesses the false doctrines... that it will lose most of it's tithe base. Also, the EG White foundation (Estate) has it's tendrils in the matter... because they get HUGE MONEY from the sales of EG Whites books. It's a MESS....

However, Bob will tell you that his Salvation is in Jesus, alone... and understands the error in what MANY Adventist's consider Heretical Doctrines of the Past.

That's my 2 worthless cents.

tall73 · May 6, 2024

Grip Docility said:
Bob understands that he is saved by Grace Alone.

I think that is largely the case. And there are many Adventists who do now understand that.

But you will find, Bob will not agree with your other characterizations of Adventist doctrine. And he still has to support his view (which does not in fact agree with the denominational view completely) from Scripture. And he cannot show how the scapegoat was unblemished when the high priest left the sanctuary, if it represents unrepentant sinners, which he claims.

They were not unblemished. They have their own sin, and no substitute.

Qubit · May 7, 2024

Fascinating debate. There is something unclear to me about this statement...

tall73 said:
Just as the Sacrifice pointed to the work of Jesus, so the the scapegoat ritual shows Jesus, our High Priest, removing sin from the people, sending it away from the camp.

The above quote seems to imply that the Scapegoat represented Jesus. If this is the case, I disagree. Nowhere in the Bible is Jesus directly associated with a Goat. He is directly associated with a Lamb, however.

The above quote also states that Jesus is our High Priest. That agrees with Scripture. Thus, I believe it is the High Priest who represents Jesus, not the Scapegoat. Obviously, Jesus cannot be both.

I definitely disagree with this statement...

tall73 said:
In the final cleansing of sin from the universe, there will be a final scapegoat. Satan, the arch-deceiver, will bear the sins of the righteous. When the sanctuary in Heaven is cleansed, those sins will be transferred to Satan.

Thus, I believe that:

The Scapegoat does not represent Jesus.
The Scapegoat does not represent Satan.

What does the Scapegoat represent in the Bible? I believe the answer is here...

Matthew 25:33
"And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left."

Matthew 25:41
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

In the context of the Day of Atonement, being cast into the Wilderness is a picture of being separated from the presence of God. This would be more in line with being cast into Hell or the Lake of Fire.

Also...

I do not believe the cleanliness of the animals have to do with whether someone is unrepentant or not.

tall73 · May 7, 2024

Qubit said:
Fascinating debate. There is something unclear to me about this statement...

The above quote seems to imply that the Scapegoat represented Jesus. If this is the case, I disagree. Nowhere in the Bible is Jesus directly associated with a Goat. He is directly associated with a Lamb, however.

Both Bob and I one hundred percent agree that Jesus is :

- represented by the high priest in Leviticus
- represented by a goat in Leviticus 16

A bit more to explain why:

There are two goats listed in Leviticus 16. One is the scapegoat, and the other is a sin offering. Bob and I both agree that the sin offering, who's blood is presented to make cleansing of sins, represents Jesus. He is the only one who died for our sins, and by His blood made cleansing for the people.

The regular sin offering could be a bull or goat, lamb, etc. depending on who offered it.

Anointed Priest:

Leviticus 4:1-3 1 Now the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, saying: If a person sins unintentionally against any of the commandments of the LORD in anything which ought not to be done, and does any of them, 3 if the anointed priest sins, bringing guilt on the people, then let him offer to the LORD for his sin which he has sinned a young bull without blemish as a sin offering. (NKJV)

Whole congregation:

Leviticus 4:13-14 13 ‘Now if the whole congregation of Israel sins unintentionally, and the thing is hidden from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done something against any of the commandments of the LORD in anything which should not be done, and are guilty; 14 when the sin which they have committed becomes known, then the assembly shall offer a young bull for the sin, and bring it before the tabernacle of meeting. (NKJV)

A ruler:

Leviticus 4:22-23 22 ‘When a ruler has sinned, and done something unintentionally against any of the commandments of the LORD his God in anything which should not be done, and is guilty, 23 or if his sin which he has committed comes to his knowledge, he shall bring as his offering a kid of the goats, a male without blemish. (NKJV)

A common person:

Leviticus 4:27-35 27 If anyone of the common people sins unintentionally by doing something against any of the commandments of the LORD in anything which ought not to be done, and is guilty, 28 or if his sin which he has committed comes to his knowledge, then he shall bring as his offering a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he has committed. 29 And he shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering, and kill the sin offering at the place of the burnt offering. 30 Then the priest shall take some of its blood with his finger, put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and pour all the remaining blood at the base of the altar. 31 He shall remove all its fat, as fat is removed from the sacrifice of the peace offering; and the priest shall burn it on the altar for a sweet aroma to the LORD. So the priest shall make atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

32 ‘If he brings a lamb as his sin offering, he shall bring a female without blemish. 33 Then he shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering, and kill it as a sin offering at the place where they kill the burnt offering. 34 The priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and pour all the remaining blood at the base of the altar. 35 He shall remove all its fat, as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of the peace offering. Then the priest shall burn it on the altar, according to the offerings made by fire to the LORD. So the priest shall make atonement for his sin that he has committed, and it shall be forgiven him. (NKJV)

In Leviticus 16 there are two sin offerings presented, a bull, and a goat.

tall73 · May 7, 2024

Qubit said:
Fascinating debate. There is something unclear to me about this statement...

The above quote seems to imply that the Scapegoat represented Jesus. If this is the case, I disagree. Nowhere in the Bible is Jesus directly associated with a Goat. He is directly associated with a Lamb, however.

Leviticus 23 spells out some particular appointed times, including Passover, Pentecost, the Day of Atonement, the Feast of Booths, etc.

Each of these pictured different aspects of Jesus' work. And they all had particular sacrifices. You can see the sacrifices for the Sabbath, New Moon, Passover, Day of Atonement, etc. spelled out in Numbers 28 and 29.

One of the reasons Jesus is particularly associated with the Lamb is because of the sin offering for the common people, as seen in the post above. But another reason is because of the Passover.

The Passover involved the sacrifice of a Lamb by each family group. Jesus fulfilled this, being crucified on the Passover. Paul makes this connection:

1 Corinthians 5:7-8 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. (NKJV)

tall73 · May 7, 2024

Now with all of that in mind, Hebrews says the following:

Hebrews 9:11-14 11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Holies once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? (NKJV)

Here we see

a. Jesus is directly stated to be our High Priest. So that identification is clear.

b. Jesus' blood cleanses more than that of bulls, goats, the red heifer, etc. All of the animals pointed to Him, the true sacrifice. They all showed aspects of His work.

c. Jesus is seen entering the heavenly sanctuary above, not made with hands.

tall73 · May 7, 2024

Later in chapter 9 the connection to the Day of Atonement is even more clear, and even many Adventist scholars agree:

Hebrews 9:23-26 23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself (NKJV)

A number of Adventist scholars have recognized that verse 25 refers to the Day of Atonement service. Below are some quotations from Adventist sources that recognize day of atonement references in Hebrews, and especially Hebrews 9:25.

Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary on Hebrews 10:1:

Compare ch. 9:25, 26, where the work of Christ is again contrasted with that of the earthly high priest on the Day of Atonement.

M.L. Andreasen in The Book of Hebrews:

Verses 25, 26. The priests entered the first apartment daily, the high priest once every year when he went into the most holy with the blood of the bullock and the goat.

William Johnsson in his essay "Day of Atonement Allusions," which can be found in the DARCOM volume on Hebrews, lists 9:25 as clearly alluding to the Day of Atonement.

The context clearly points to a Day of Atonement allusion (high priest . . . yearly . . . blood [cf. 9:7]) (113)

Alwyn Salom in his appendix article in the Daniel and Revelation committee series on Hebrews, speaking of verse 24, 25:

The reference in the context of the Day of Atonement service of the earthly high priest is not to the outer compartment of the sanctuary.

Richard Davidson, notes that vs. 25 is an unmistakable reference to the Day of Atonement:

I agree with Young that Hebrews 9:7 and 9:25 refer to Day of Atonement, because of the clear references to “once a year” and “every year” respectively. ("Inauguration or Day of Atonement?" Andrews University Seminary Studies, Spring 2002, 79)

Felix Cortez states in his article "From the Holy to the Most Holy Place: The Period of Hebrews 9:6-10 and the Day of Atonement as a Metaphor of Transition" in the Journal of Biblical Literature, 125.3, Fall 2006, 527 (footnote):

Unchallenged references to the Day of Atonement in the central section include 9:7, 25

Notice, that in the last article Cortez is writing in the Journal of Biblical Literature, and indicates that verse 25 is an unchallenged reference to the Day of Atonement, which is the view of most non-Adventist scholars as well, based on these passages.

tall73 · May 7, 2024

Qubit said:
The above quote also states that Jesus is our High Priest. That agrees with Scripture. Thus, I believe it is the High Priest who represents Jesus, not the Scapegoat. Obviously, Jesus cannot be both.

Jesus represents the offering and the priest in a number of passages in Hebrews. So it is certainly possible for Him to be both.

Here is a clear statement that shows He is both High Priest, and Sacrifice:

Hebrews 7:26-27 26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. (NKJV)

So the symbols can represent different aspects of Jesus' work.

The issue with the scapegoat is what is meant by it, because, Bob and I both agree (though you might not know it due to his polemical statements where he mischaracterizes my view for effect) that the scapegoat is NOT killed, and is not a blood sacrifice. It serves some other role in the service. More on that later (pressed for time at the moment).

tall73 · May 7, 2024

www.adventist.org

In the final cleansing of sin from the universe, there will be a final scapegoat. Satan, the arch-deceiver, will bear the sins of the righteous. When the sanctuary in Heaven is cleansed, those sins will be transferred to Satan.

Qubit said:
I definitely disagree with this statement...

I don't blame you! I disagree with it completely as well!

Bob also claims that statement is a "mistake" on the Adventist website.

But the problem is, Bob will not disagree with anything Ellen White says. So while he says that is a mistake. He does not think these statements by Ellen White are mistaken. He just says they are out of context. But, I linked to the full context for each statement. And Bob has not in fact gone through all the statements to show how they don't mean what they clearly say. That is because Ellen White did mean what they clearly say.

Great Controversy.

It was seen, also, that while the sin offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scapegoat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed.

When the high priest, by virtue of the blood of the sin offering, removed the sins from the sanctuary, he placed them upon the scapegoat. When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty.

Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 16 (1901)

Satan is a diligent student of the Scriptures. He understands what is symbolized by the Jewish service. He sees that the day of atonement has a bearing on his life; that the scapegoat chosen to bear the sins of the people represents himself; that he must bear the sins of all who come to Jesus; and that those who continue in transgression must bear their own sins.

Great Controversy

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They “shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts.” Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds.” The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch—Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah.

Spiritual Gifts Volume 1:

They must prevent all they could from receiving salvation purchased for them by Jesus. By so doing Satan could still work against the government of God. Also it would be for his own interest to keep from Jesus all he could. For the sins of those who are redeemed by the blood of Christ, and overcome, at last will be rolled back upon the originator of sin, the Devil, and he will have to bear their sins, while those who do not accept salvation through Jesus will bear their own sins.

Early Writings:

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!"

Grip Docility · May 7, 2024

tall73 said:
Both Bob and I one hundred percent agree that Jesus is :

- represented by the high priest in Leviticus
- represented by a goat in Leviticus 16

A bit more to explain why:

There are two goats listed in Leviticus 16. One is the scapegoat, and the other is a sin offering. Bob and I both agree that the sin offering, who's blood is presented to make cleansing of sins, represents Jesus. He is the only one who died for our sins, and by His blood made cleansing for the people.

The regular sin offering could be a bull or goat, lamb, etc. depending on who offered it.

Anointed Priest:

Leviticus 4:1-3 1 Now the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, saying: If a person sins unintentionally against any of the commandments of the LORD in anything which ought not to be done, and does any of them, 3 if the anointed priest sins, bringing guilt on the people, then let him offer to the LORD for his sin which he has sinned a young bull without blemish as a sin offering. (NKJV)

Whole congregation:

Leviticus 4:13-14 13 ‘Now if the whole congregation of Israel sins unintentionally, and the thing is hidden from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done something against any of the commandments of the LORD in anything which should not be done, and are guilty; 14 when the sin which they have committed becomes known, then the assembly shall offer a young bull for the sin, and bring it before the tabernacle of meeting. (NKJV)

A ruler:

Leviticus 4:22-23 22 ‘When a ruler has sinned, and done something unintentionally against any of the commandments of the LORD his God in anything which should not be done, and is guilty, 23 or if his sin which he has committed comes to his knowledge, he shall bring as his offering a kid of the goats, a male without blemish. (NKJV)

A common person:

Leviticus 4:27-35 27 If anyone of the common people sins unintentionally by doing something against any of the commandments of the LORD in anything which ought not to be done, and is guilty, 28 or if his sin which he has committed comes to his knowledge, then he shall bring as his offering a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he has committed. 29 And he shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering, and kill the sin offering at the place of the burnt offering. 30 Then the priest shall take some of its blood with his finger, put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and pour all the remaining blood at the base of the altar. 31 He shall remove all its fat, as fat is removed from the sacrifice of the peace offering; and the priest shall burn it on the altar for a sweet aroma to the LORD. So the priest shall make atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.
32 ‘If he brings a lamb as his sin offering, he shall bring a female without blemish. 33 Then he shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering, and kill it as a sin offering at the place where they kill the burnt offering. 34 The priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and pour all the remaining blood at the base of the altar. 35 He shall remove all its fat, as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of the peace offering. Then the priest shall burn it on the altar, according to the offerings made by fire to the LORD. So the priest shall make atonement for his sin that he has committed, and it shall be forgiven him. (NKJV)

In Leviticus 16 there are two sin offerings presented, a bull, and a goat.

Leviticus 16

Behold... The Desert Demon Passage.

Leviticus 16:20 “When he has finished purifying the most holy place, the tent of meeting, and the altar, he is to present the live male goat. 21 Aaron will lay both his hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the Israelites’ wrongdoings and rebellious acts—all their sins. He is to put them on the goat’s head and send it away into the wilderness by the man appointed for the task.[d] 22 The goat will carry on it all their wrongdoings into a desolate land, and he will release it there.

Now, obviously this Passage is about the precise moment that Jesus' work at Golgotha is complete then the Resurrection and finally the Ascension.

So Azazael (Desert Demon) is released without forgiveness. I believe that the Law was given by dispensation (or by ordinance) of Angels. (Acts 7:53)(Galatians 3:19). By the time Jesus arrives, "many" (NOT ALL), Sanhedrin officials had been utterly corrupted, to the point that Jesus Rips out Matthew 23 on them, calls them liars and murderers... and of coarse, just as John the Baptizer did, Vipers (Serpents), but just incase we were missing something... Jesus flat out calls them "sons of the devil (accuser of the brethren Rev 12:10)".

Now, this is SUPERDUPER important, because Jesus dealt with the possesed, saved an adulterous caught in the act from being stoned "PER THE STONE LAW"...,, Ate and Drank (Not Grape juice.. but wine) with sinners and such forth.... and not once did Jesus call one of them the Devil! He told Peter that he was being "Adversarial" at the last supper, but only because Peter didn't understand what Jesus was about to go through.

BUT...... the Sanhedrin gang that represented all aspects of "The Book of The Law"... Jesus literally outdoes His Table Flipping incident, by giving them a scathing tongue lashing that the likes of humanity had never known before! By the time Jesus was done, there was zero doubt, that if you wanted to shake hands with the devil, you could settle for a hand shake with the PROUD AND SELF RIGHTOUS, ACCUSING, Sanhedrin Gang, and that would be the same thing!

So, we can then say that Satan was still in power and part of the dispensation (over sight) of every matter involving the Law. Death was the consequence of transgression of the Law. Satan is the "Accuser of the Brethren". So, then, we can say that Satan was part of the Old Covenant, power wise... being that He was imbued with the curse (Power) Genesis 3:14, Heb 2:14 OF DEATH. It is biblically correct to say that Death was the end result of THE LAW. "Oh DEATH, where is thy sting (Serpent Strike), the Serpent strike is SIN and the power behind Sin is... THE NOMOS (Torah).

Welllll.... Satan literally possesses Judas, turns Jesus over to that delightful Sanhedrin... and I'm now almost positive that he thought he was above reproach, in that, he couldn't believe that JESUS was the very PHYSICAL presence of GOD. Satan, blesses the Covenant based condemnation of Jesus, by the Sanhedrin, then grabs a tub of popcorn, to watch the piece de la resistance of all of his Satanic work... the LAWFUL Slaying of God's prophesied Messiah. Satan thought he had beaten God! He sat back, a waited for his final competition to DIE, condemned JUSTLY, in his mind.

Trouble is... Jesus IS GOD and Satan was condemning the VERY Ratifier of the Covenant, WHO had given ALL of Satan's POWER OF DEATH, OVER to that LEGAL DOCUMENT. God didn't cheat! He warned all of Israel; "Leviticus 19:18 You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord. Satan had plenty of time to see what was written in the law, but was too blinded by Self Righteousness and Hate, to see it.

Deuteronomy 19:18-19 And the judges shall investigate thoroughly; and if the witness is a false witness and he has accused his brother falsely, 19 then you shall do to him just as he had intended to do to his brother. Thus you shall purge the evil from among you

Well, as soon as GOD DIED ON THE CROSS, Satan lost all of his power and authority by the very Law that he had used against GOD. Also, the legal contract of The one with the power of Death, being connected to the very Signature Provider of the Covenant (Tablets of the covenant, God's finger wrote on them)... Legally dissolved Satan's Authority, that he had usurped in Eden.

Did Jesus atone for, EVEN Satan? Yes!

Colossians 1:19 For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through His blood, shed on the cross.

But alas, Satan, "Azazel" didn't listen when Jesus said; Judge not lest ye be judged yourself, for in what manner(measure) that you judge, you shall be judged in like manner(measure).

This is why Azazel leaves with not only his application of the Law upon God, on his own head, but God now has PROVEN that Satan's legal accusations are FALSE, so the CHARGES against the Children of Israel that had so fervently racked up against Israel, lay upon his head, as well!

The accusations of the ACCUSER were nullified! While Satan's work of legal impropriety rested on his head, the Atoning Covering of Christ, CANNOT!

Christ's attornment is available to ALL, but the Devil can't have it, because he Lived by the Law, Accused by the Law and thusly will forever be condemned by his very own Condemnation!

Christ is the Savior and Atonement of All of Creation. (Faith in Jesus sold separately )

The Devil is the ACCUSER of all of Creation..... AAAAAAAAAANNNNNDDDDDDDDDD......

Per Rev. 12, Jesus ascends, war breaks out... and the Accuser is cast from heaven, FOREVER.

Azazel marches on, into the "desert", incapable of receiving atonement, by the very measures that made him believe himself to be "like" God.

Oh my GGGGOOOOOODDDDnesssss! I finally understand the purpose of Azazal! Oh, wow... Check this out!

Deuteronomy 4 - Deuteronomy 31:26 “Take this Book of the Law and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.

The Ark of the Covenant symbolizes Both Jesus and Israel! Squeeeeeeeeeee! The Book of the Law is a DIRECT Prophecy of Jesus Crushing the Serpents head as it goes to strike His HEAL!!!! God is so AWESOME!!!!!!!!

Qubit · May 7, 2024

Thank you @tall73 for your detailed responses. I am still not convinced regarding the second point here...

tall73 said:
Both Bob and I one hundred percent agree that Jesus is :

- represented by the high priest in Leviticus
- represented by a goat in Leviticus 16

The Goats have a deeper meaning. I may get into more detail later, but for now I will simply state that there are different types of Atonement.

From Wikipedia:

In Rabbinic Judaism, atonement is achieved through repentance, which can be followed by some combination of the following:

Confession
Restitution
The occurrence of Yom Kippur (the day itself, as distinct from the Temple service performed on it)
Tribulations (unpleasant life experiences)
The experience of dying.
The carrying out of a sentence of lashes or execution imposed by an ordained court (not now in existence)
Temple service (not now in existence, e.g. bringing a sacrifice).

Which of these additions are required varies according to the severity of the sin, whether it was done willfully, in error, or under duress, whether it was against God alone or also against a fellow person, and whether the Temple service and ordained law courts are in existence or not. Repentance is needed in all cases of willful sin, and restitution is always required in the case of sin against a fellow person, unless the wronged party waives it.

Atonement in Judaism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You will notice a few highlighted points. One point is that Atonement can be achieved through Tribulations or 'unpleasant life experiences'. In other words, we may be looking at a 'reap what you sow' scenario, similar to the concept of Karma in other religions. That would match the Scapegoat going through the tribulations of the Wilderness. The 'carrying out of a sentence' point would be what determines the Tribulations. God judges what the punishment will be.

The red highlighted point is the most important. I believe the Scapegoat also represents the experience of dying to atone for sin. Not in the sense of what Jesus experienced, but rather those that experience the Second Death in the Lake of Fire. In other words, the Lake of Fire is a type of Atonement. I believe it is the Baptism of Fire, but that is another subject.

Now here is where you, I and @BobRyan will most likely never agree (thus no point arguing). Although I am not a Universalist, I do believe that everyone will be redeemed in the end. Thus, the Scapegoat represents those people that will be atoned for after they die, however they must go through Hell (symbolized by the Wilderness) first.

tall73 said:
There are two goats listed in Leviticus 16. One is the scapegoat, and the other is a sin offering. Bob and I both agree that the sin offering, who's blood is presented to make cleansing of sins, represents Jesus. He is the only one who died for our sins, and by His blood made cleansing for the people.

We need the Blood of a Lamb, not a Goat...

1 Peter 1:19
"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot"

You are claiming that the Blood of the Goat represents the Blood of Jesus. See the problem?

The Atonement of Yom Kippur lasted only one year. The Atonement Jesus made lasts an eternity. If the Blood of Bullocks and Goats can take away everyone's sins forever, then we would have no need for Jesus. We may as well just build another Temple, restart the services, and throw the New Testament in the garbage. Everyone can still be saved. People would only have to go to the Temple once and it is finished. See the problem?

Anyhow, the main point I am making is that, when it comes to the Law, there needs to be more than just 'killing some bulls and goats' to atone for sin. Sometimes a high price must be paid (like a prison sentence of Tribulations and/or Death), otherwise everyone would just commit whatever sin they wanted, and it would be no big deal to Atone for it. Again, the Scapegoat represents the 'reap what you sow' aspect of the Law. It is meant to be a deterrent.

Christians are under Grace. This means that many of the Yom Kippur services are obsolete and therefore should not be used as a one hundred percent comparison to Salvation. Again, Law vs. Grace must be rightly divided.

Grip Docility · May 7, 2024

Qubit said:
Now here is where you, I and @BobRyan will most likely never agree (thus no point arguing). Although I am not a Universalist, I do believe that everyone will be redeemed in the end. Thus, the Scapegoat represents those people that will be atoned for after they die, however they must go through Hell (symbolized by the Wilderness) first.

I try to keep up with understanding various understandings. Would I be correct to assume that you believe that the Actual Lake of Fire is a sort of "Purgatory" that people receive their due punishment within, until they are reconciled, at which point they are then "saved"?

Scapegoat-Adventist website: "Satan will bear the sins of the righteous"

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